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20 Torments

PeterTheAleut

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Pap said:
We pray for the dead because of such teachings as the toll houses/20 torments.
That's not why I was taught to pray for the dead.

Pap said:
Praying for the dead is not found in the Bible.
I suppose you haven't read 2 Maccabees 12:43-45, then.
 

chris

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Pap said:
Isn't  2 Maccabees Deuetocanonical?
Nope. It's part of the LXX, so it is part of the canonical Scriptures for the Orthodox Chruch.
 

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I asked this same question when I was studying and was told it is Deuetocanonical, so we only use it for historical reference , not theological. But if you are going to insist on who said that I don't remember. But If the Church insists that it is now Dogma, I believe it is only because it suits what they believe.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Pap said:
But If the Church insists that it is now Dogma, I believe it is only because it suits what they believe.
Man, you are really itching to piss off someone on here, aren't you?

So if you are not Orthodox, are you affiliated with any other group?
 

chris

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Pap said:
But If the Church insists that it is now Dogma, I believe it is only because it suits what they believe.
First off, this quote shows how you have reversed what has actually occurred: praying for the dead is efficacious because it has been shown to be so in Scriptures, not because the Church needs to come to some justification for Tradition.

Secondly, this also shows that you have entered this forum not to learn about the Orthodox Faith, but to attack the Body of Christ.
 

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Convince me that the Church is not teaching heresies and I will return. I am in your eyes a lost sheep.
My life would be much simpler if I left the Evangelical church and returned to the Orthodox Church. All my friends and relatives will no longer treat me like a leper and I might be welcome to dine with them and not spat on.  :'(
 

PeterTheAleut

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Pap said:
Convince me that the Church is not teaching heresies and I will return. I am in your eyes a lost sheep.
My life would be much simpler if I left the Evangelical church and returned to the Orthodox Church. All my friends and relatives will no longer treat me like a leper and I might be welcome to dine with them and not spat on.  :'(
Now you're appealing to pity.  Do you really have anything logical to say anymore?
 

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Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.
It wasn't till I heard an evangelical message that I realised it was all Propaganda.
As I said earlier: Convince me I'm wrong.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Pap said:
Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.
It wasn't till I heard an evangelical message that I realised it was all Propaganda.
As I said earlier: Convince me I'm wrong.
It sounds like your former priest didn't know a lot about Evangelicals, if he is even a real person.  But even you should be aware how iconoclasm was a hallmark of the "Re-formation."  Burning of iconography was common, but this conflict specifically was removed from Holy Orthodoxy.  I don't know of any Christians intentionally praying to Satan, unless you mean "Christian" used broadly enough to include some forms of Satanism which rely so heavily on inverted Christian imagery that it would be correct to refer to them as being paradigmatically 'stuck' in Christianity, even in their feeble opposition to it.  Such opposition actually fuels and reinforces Christian understanding as it is constricted by its linguistic and symbolic parameters, but I acquiesce.

The other side is just as guilty of propaganda, with catch-phrases like "Mary Worship" and "idolatry."  I think a better term than propaganda on either side would be misunderstanding.  As far as proving you wrong on these matters, simply grab a history book and start reading.  I don't need to prove anything, the Church has history on her side.
 

Irish Hermit

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Pap said:
Praying for the dead is not found in the Bible.
Certainly it is.

See this message

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg304145.html#msg304145
 

Michał

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Pap said:
I asked this same question when I was studying and was told it is Deuetocanonical, so we only use it for historical reference , not theological.
This can be said about 4 Maccabees or 3 Esdras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Esdras), which are included in Orthodox Bibles as non-canonical appendices, but not about 2 Maccabees which is a canonical book of the Old Testament. "Deuetocanonical" and "protocanonical" are Roman Catholic terms - coined under the influence of the Protestant Reformation - and should have no application in Orthodoxy.
 

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http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm
 

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I draw your attention to the whole page.
It discusses the fact that the Maccabean books are NOT docrine.
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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I'd love to see the things that FrChris requested of you Pap. As stated previously, the link you provided is linked to the teaching of tollhouses. If you are looking for a smoking gun to shut the coffin on Orthodoxy, with tollhouses, you have failed miserably. It is NOT a doctrine/dogma of the Church PERIOD. The priests that I have come in contact with over the years, as well as my spiritual father, have all said to run from this teaching like the plague. They could not/cannot say this type of thing in regards to Saints, Prayers for the Dead, The Eucharist, etc. If you truly wish to be convinced of Orthodoxy, try being a little more kind in your posts. There are many non-Orthodox on this forum that have great relations with us. Why? Because they truly want to learn, and they don't demean us. I am not sure you are interested in learning, though.
 

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Pap said:
I draw your attention to the whole page.
It discusses the fact that the Maccabean books are NOT doctrine.
The Old Testament of the Orthodox Church is the Septuagint, not the Masoric text that the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches utilize. The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church. So yes, in the Orthodox church, praying for the dead is a biblical teaching that is officially found within the Official Text of the Old Testament utilized by the Orthodox Church called the Septuagint.

Thomas
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Thomas said:
The Old Testament of the Orthodox Church is the Septuagint, not the Masoric text that the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches utilize. The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church. So yes, in the Orthodox church, praying for the dead is a biblical teaching that is officially found within the Official Text of the Old Testament utilized by the Orthodox Church called the Septuagint.

Thomas
Exactly. I would also love to know what the "Official" Canon of Scripture is supposed to be anyway? Certainly not the one formulated in the 15/1600s. Convince me I'm wrong. ;)
 

PoorFoolNicholas

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Michał said:
Thomas said:
The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church.
You mean this one: http://www.bible.ca/catholic-apocrypha.htm? I had an impression that it was a fundamentalist Protestant website.
Yeah, the site is worthless. The same tired Sola Scriptura argument regurgitated over and over. I really don't see who it appeals to.
 

mike

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antiderivative said:
Toll Houses have been discussed in any Church councils (someone here would know more about that than I do).
The first notes about it come from late 9th century and the last Ecumenical Council took place in 787.
http://www.oca.org/FSlives.asp see: Venerable Theodora of Constantinople  
 

Michał

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mike said:
The first notes about it come from late 9th century. . .
It's not so obvious. St Paul already in the 1st century wrote about "the Ruler of the Powers of the Air, who is still at work among the disobedient" (Eph 2:2).
 

ialmisry

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Pap said:
I draw your attention to the whole page.
It discusses the fact that the Maccabean books are NOT docrine.
Then why do the Jews celebrate Hanukkah?

I mention that, because you use their canon, why not their calendar?
 

ialmisry

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PeterTheAleut said:
Pap said:
FrChris said:
Pap said:
When we asked a prominent scholar/Dr of Theology/Monk/Priest (yes, he is all of the above) of the Orthodox Church at the Q&A during a theological lecture, he reluctantly answered us: It IS an official belief of the Orthodox Church BUT it is “not taught”.
Please provide within 48 hours a source for this assertion, naming the person you are stating teaches this as well as the date and location of this lecture.

+FrChris
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You should know better than that.
Just in case you're wondering, when a moderator or admin posts in bolded green text like this, this is a formal moderatorial request and is not open to public discussion.

-PeterTheAleut
Moderator
And it's not a rhetorical question.
 

Thomas

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PoorFoolNicholas said:
Thomas said:
The Old Testament of the Orthodox Church is the Septuagint, not the Masoric text that the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches utilize. The website that you quote from is one of the Roman Catholic Church and not a website from the Orthodox Church. So yes, in the Orthodox church, praying for the dead is a biblical teaching that is officially found within the Official Text of the Old Testament utilized by the Orthodox Church called the Septuagint.

Thomas
Exactly. I would also love to know what the "Official" Canon of Scripture is supposed to be anyway? Certainly not the one formulated in the 15/1600s. Convince me I'm wrong. ;)
In response to your question, This is an excerpt from a longer article located at www.septuagint.net

Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.

Septuagint - Influence on Christianity
The Septuagint was also a source of the Old Testament for early Christians during the first few centuries AD. Many early Christians spoke and read Greek, thus they relied on the Septuagint translation for most of their understanding of the Old Testament. The New Testament writers also relied heavily on the Septuagint, as a majority of Old Testament quotes cited in the New Testament are quoted directly from the Septuagint (others are quoted from the Hebrew texts). Greek church fathers are also known to have quoted from the Septuagint. Even today, the Eastern Orthodox Church relies on the Septuagint for its Old Testament teachings.

+++
A summary of several articles cited below:

It is notable that the Eastern Orthodox Church still prefers to use the LXX (Septuagint)as the basis for translating the Old Testament into other languages. The Eastern Orthodox also use LXX untranslated where Greek is the liturgical language, e.g. in the Orthodox Church of Constantinople, the Church of Greece and the Cypriot Orthodox Church. There is actually a scholarly consensus that the LXX represents a separate Hebrew-text tradition from that which was later standardized as the Masoretic text and is therfore an earlier understanding of the Jewish scriptures as understood by the Jews at the time of Christ.
(reference cite - a)Karen Jobes and Moises Silva, Invitation to the Septuagint ISBN 1-84227-061-3, (Paternoster Press, 2001). - The current standard for Introductory works on the Septuagint.
                      b) William Priestly, "The Dead Sea Scrolls." — A detailed explanation with scholarly apparatus.


I agree with you, as Orthodox christians we do not rely upon a canon of scripture that was settled between 1500 and 1600 (your quote) but rather on the practices and citations of the Early Church Fathers.  There are many who believe that the Jewish attempt at canonizing the Masoric text of the Old Testament is actually an attempt by jewish scholars and rabbis of the time  to minimize the us of quotations of LXX scriptures by the apostles and Our Lord as an attempt to minimize the reliance on scripture to prove the messiahship of Jesus Christ by the Christians.

Thomas
 

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FrChris said:
Pap said:
....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?
If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended
Then, as I mentioned before but you ignored...describe him in a private message to me.

Pap said:
And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.


Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?
We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.
Fr. Chris is indeed a Greek Orthodox Priest. He has a wonderful parish (at least from the pictures) and he is an Administrator of this site.

-nick
 

Fr. George

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FrChris said:
Pap said:
....why on earth would I reprimand somebody on a website that I am not associated with?
If I name him on a public forum, his career will be ended
Then, as I mentioned before but you ignored...describe him in a private message to me.

Pap said:
And, if he were "tirelessly working for GOD" then he should not mind me contacting him.
Have we met sir? Do I have your credentials. Do you honestly expect me to post or PM you his details?
We have not yet met. However, it is well known that I am a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, serving in Jackson, MS. I invite members of this forum to vouch for me in this regard.
As if he needed anyone else to vouch for him; Fr. Chris is indeed a priest in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America serving in Jackson MS.  I attended his ordination to the priesthood (fried chicken for coffee hour?  yes!), was a schoolmate and next-door neighbor at Theological School, etc.  If you need more details: tough.

As for confidence in Fr. Chris' ability to hold things in, well, confidence... He's been trusted by a number of people with confidential personal information and situations for as long as I've known him (August 2003); he had a reputation as a person of great care on campus at Theological School, and has not broken the confidences of people yet since I've met him.  As far as I'm concerned, I would (and will) trust him with my life.
 

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Pap said:
Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.
That doesn't sound like any Orthodox priest I have ever known or heard.  In my personal experience, it is the Evangelicals who obsess with telling lies about the Catholics and Orthodox.  Kind of like your list of 20 torments, or whatever that was.
 

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Salpy said:
Pap said:
Our local Priest (Who insidently was eventually kicked out for paedophylia) spent some time in every sermon warning us about the evil evangelicals. He said things like we burn icons, pray to Satan and all sorts of lies.
That doesn't sound like any Orthodox priest I have ever known or heard.  In my personal experience, it is the Evangelicals who obsess with telling lies about the Catholics and Orthodox.  Kind of like your list of 20 torments, or whatever that was.
He used to say things like; the Evangelicals have "Holy Icons" under their carpet so they can be troden under foot.
Granted this was about 30 years ago but the old goat did a number on our congregation. His sons went to school with a very good friend. They never fasted and they once admitted that they were not even Orthodox. Their father's job is a Priest but doesn't practice it. Just in case I get moderated again, his Church was St Nicholas in Marrickvile Sydney. The archdiocese said he was sent back to Greece for his pedophilia but he shaved his goatee and got a job at Sydney airport as a customs officer. I don't know how to prove this but I have to answer to my Lord is I'm telling a lie.



So can someone tell me? How theologumena get into the Church and why do some priests believe and teach these false beliefs? Are'nt they answerable to the Archbishop? Shouldn't they all be teaching from the same books?
 

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I am so very sorry you were hurt.  May the Lord Jesus Christ heal your wounds, and may God have mercy upon this man and lead him to repentance!  I hope that this man's actions will not keep you away from the Church forever, and I pray that the unfortunate wrongdoings of weak servants would not keep you from the truth of the Orthodox faith!
 

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Yeh! He's probably rotting in Hell. Screaming like a pig.
I hope the Church doesn’t still protect these pedophiles like the Catholic Church does.
I’ve gone off the topic. Sorry but these uneducated priests did a lot of damage in the past and still do. My mother in law was told at some senior citizens bible study that the original sin was anal sex.
Doesn’t matter what you tell her, she won’t change her beliefs because Fr Michael said so. (He’s retired last year, so there is no point chasing him up Fr Chris).
My Dad spent the last 30 years of his life in constant pain. He resorted to seeing a psychic who told him someone cast a spell on him. He told his priest but his priest did not reprimand him. He died not long after. Why didn’t the $#&#ing priest help him? (I can name the priest if you want). How many millions of Orthodox are going to Hell before the Orthodox Church stops worrying about offending their flocks or losing to the Evil Evangelical Protestants and start teaching the truth. Did Paul or John worry about offending the Christians? NO!!! John called the ones that hated their brother liars. He didn’t pull any punches.
The old goat (TRAGO)  should have told dad that if he continued to visit the psychic he would be condemning himself to Hell.
I better go before I break the keyboard.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Pap said:
Yeh! He's probably rotting in Hell. Screaming like a pig.
I hope the Church doesn’t still protect these pedophiles like the Catholic Church does.
I’ve gone off the topic. Sorry but these uneducated priests did a lot of damage in the past and still do. My mother in law was told at some senior citizens bible study that the original sin was anal sex.
Doesn’t matter what you tell her, she won’t change her beliefs because Fr Michael said so. (He’s retired last year, so there is no point chasing him up Fr Chris).
My Dad spent the last 30 years of his life in constant pain. He resorted to seeing a psychic who told him someone cast a spell on him. He told his priest but his priest did not reprimand him. He died not long after. Why didn’t the $#&#ing priest help him? (I can name the priest if you want). How many millions of Orthodox are going to Hell before the Orthodox Church stops worrying about offending their flocks or losing to the Evil Evangelical Protestants and start teaching the truth. Did Paul or John worry about offending the Christians? NO!!! John called the ones that hated their brother liars. He didn’t pull any punches.
The old goat (TRAGO)  should have told dad that if he continued to visit the psychic he would be condemning himself to Hell.
I better go before I break the keyboard.
Kyrie Eleison.
 

Heorhij

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Dear all, first, please forgive me that I missed this thread as a Mod yesterday; Global Mods and Admin, thank you so much for taking care of things here. Dear Pap, yes, lines in green are official moderatorial statements and they are not up for discussion, according to the rules of this Web forum. --Heorhij, moderator (Free-For-All, religious topics)

Now as a participant: Yes, from what I heard, torments (Old Church Slavonic "mytarstva") of the soul after death and before the general resurrection of the dead is what we call a theologumenon, meaning, a pious opinion of some theologians - but not a dogma of the Orthodox Church.

I think if one really wants to know what is dogma and what is theologumenon, one must: (a) pay a very close attention to the words of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, because essentially all Church dogmatics is there, and (b) get in touch, personally, with a highly educated Orthodox priest or bishop, and respectfully, prayerfully ask him to clarify things.

Starting a heated debate on a Web forum, especially using expressions like "the lies the Orthodox Church teaches," etc., will definitely not clarify anything...
 

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I remember now. The 20 Torments that I posted on my old web (at least 12 years ago) site was coppied from a book I once purchased from the church book shop.
How do these Theologumena even get a start?
I think because the Church has so so many Church Fathers and Saints, nobody knows who is reputable and who isn't. My parents were worshiping Saint Dinitri tou Leka till the Church anounced that he was never a Saint. Yet they got his books and Icons from the Church book stand on a Sunday on the Church grounds.
Go figure?
 

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Pap said:
I remember now. The 20 Torments that I posted on my old web (at least 12 years ago) site was coppied from a book I once purchased from the church book shop.
How do these Theologumena even get a start?
I think because the Church has so so many Church Fathers and Saints, nobody knows who is reputable and who isn't. My parents were worshiping Saint Dinitri tou Leka till the Church anounced that he was never a Saint. Yet they got his books and Icons from the Church book stand on a Sunday on the Church grounds.
Go figure?
I understand. I sometimes hear some very good people, obviously deeply believing Orthodox, say something like, "there is no evolution because that's what Holy Father Seraphim Rose says." Or, I remember being blasted and called a heretic because I mentioned, on another forum, that Genesis 3:21 ("animal skins") does not necessarily mean that man before the Fall had no flesh - people immediately quoted a number of Fathers who were, apparently, Platonists and who indeed believed that there was no flesh before the Fall (just an etherial, light, air-like body with no "meat" whatsoever on it). I quoted St. John Chrysostomos who obviously, clearly does NOT see any "flesh allegory" in these "animal skins," but my opponent said that I was "lying straight in the eye," even though I gave literal quotes and a link to an Orthodox source that had St. John's text.

Again, the only thing I can say in these situations is that we, perhaps, will all benefit if we (a) agree that the essence of the Church DOGMATICS (as opposed to "collection of OPINIONS") is all in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, and (2) keep in touch with our spiritual Fathers, asking THEM to explain certain difficult moments in our learning the Church teachings, asking not casually but seriously, thoughtfully and prayerfuly...
 
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