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To the poster Pap,  May I suggest that you read this essay by a 20th c Orthodox saint who understands much of what is wrong in the human element within the church but sees the purity within the Orthodox Christian faith. http://incommunion.org/?p=26
 

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I understand. I sometimes hear some very good people, obviously deeply believing Orthodox, say something like, "there is no evolution because that's what Holy Father Seraphim Rose says." Or, I remember being blasted and called a heretic because I mentioned, on another forum, that Genesis 3:21 ("animal skins") does not necessarily mean that man before the Fall had no flesh - people immediately quoted a number of Fathers who were, apparently, Platonists and who indeed believed that there was no flesh before the Fall (just an etherial, light, air-like body with no "meat" whatsoever on it). I quoted St. John Chrysostomos who obviously, clearly does NOT see any "flesh allegory" in these "animal skins," but my opponent said that I was "lying straight in the eye," even though I gave literal quotes and a link to an Orthodox source that had St. John's text.

Again, the only thing I can say in these situations is that we, perhaps, will all benefit if we (a) agree that the essence of the Church DOGMATICS (as opposed to "collection of OPINIONS") is all in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, and (2) keep in touch with our spiritual Fathers, asking THEM to explain certain difficult moments in our learning the Church teachings, asking not casually but seriously, thoughtfully and prayerfuly...
You unwittingly proved my point.
You obviously believe in a form of Evolution. The Bible has no room for Evolution because if you ad up all the “begats” you’d get a figure of about 6000 years, allowing for a few generations that haven’t been mentioned. But wars and kings have been mentioned that archaeologists and historians can date. So why should I believe you if you teach a Doctrine different to GODS word?
You said some Church Fathers were Platonists. Then you tell me to consult my Spiritual Father. Who says that all Spiritual Fathers know what they are talking about? Is my Spiritual Father a Platonist?
Been an Orthodox is like been in the school debating team or a philosophy class. The Nicene-Constantinople Creed might have the truth of what Orthodoxy believes but the Orthodox clergy (and Church Fathers) have ignored it and added and taught whatever dream they’ve dreamt.
 

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Pap said:
You obviously believe in a form of Evolution. The Bible has no room for Evolution because if you ad up all the “begats” you’d get a figure of about 6000 years, allowing for a few generations that haven’t been mentioned. But wars and kings have been mentioned that archaeologists and historians can date. So why should I believe you if you teach a Doctrine different to GODS word?
Wow. First of all, I am not teaching you and there are no particular reasons you should believe ME. I am just a layman and a rank-and-file participant in OC.net discussions, not here to make anyone believe me. Second, the Orthodox Church has never been against figurative, allegoric interpretations of Genesis rather than literal, historical interpretations of it. Third, God's Word is not the Bible but the God-Man Jesus Christ, the Logos Incarnate, Who is always present in His Church. It is He Who teaches us, using a large variety of things: the Divine Liturgy, the Holy Mysteries, the Scriptures, the doctrinal documents of the Ecumenical Councils, the iconography, the architecture, and many other things...   

Pap said:
You said some Church Fathers were Platonists. Then you tell me to consult my Spiritual Father. Who says that all Spiritual Fathers know what they are talking about? Is my Spiritual Father a Platonist?
Not likely, because after the Fifth Ecumenical Council (553), Platonism and Neo-Platonism suffered a decisive blow and never really made a comeback into the Church doctrine (see the famous Anathemas against Origen that dealt with the "matter - bad, spirit - good" mentality, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.ix.html). If your spiritual Father is a seminary graduate, he most certainly knows that Platonism is not compatible with being an Orthodox presbyter. But in the 2-nd, 3-d, even 4-th century Platonism and Neo-Platonism (Plotinus) did influence the mentality and the language of many Church Fathers quite a lot.

Pap said:
Been an Orthodox is like been in the school debating team or a philosophy class. The Nicene-Constantinople Creed might have the truth of what Orthodoxy believes but the Orthodox clergy (and Church Fathers) have ignored it and added and taught whatever dream they’ve dreamt.
That's not true. First of all, the Nicene Creed IS ITSELF a product of many decades of deliberations of the many Church Fathers (BTW, same thing the Bible canon). From what you are saying, it seems like there was this Creed, fallen from the sky, and then these bad Fathers came and changed everything. Here, you are arguing like an extreme Sola Scriptura evangelical: we have this Bible (fallen from the sky), and then those bad Orthodox and Catholics added a lot of things to it. This is naive and inaccurate. Second, what was, indeed, added to the Church dogmatics, was added not arbitrarily (like someone dreaded a dream), but through meetings of many, many Ecumenical and local Councils. While some of these councils (like the Stoglav I mentioned) did not contribute much of substance and are today viewed as superfluous, other councils produced true gems of our faith like the Christological dogmat about the two natures of the Logos Incarnate (Chalcedon, 451). And lastly, if you have this preconceived notion that the Orthodox Church teaches falsehoods, why are you discussing on this forum? I am afraid we aren't going to convince you in anything if you have already made up your mind, and you will certainly not convince us (the Orthodox). Maybe we should start over, without you assuming that we are bad, lying, or childishly naive people?
 

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"Extreme Sola Scriptura evangelical"? Are you aware of the Heptadic Structure of the BIBLE?
I Beg you. Please watch this little video by Chuck Missler. No I didn't google this, I've met Chuch several times and he's no fool.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d
This Catholic Church tried to hide this stuff that Ivan Panin discoverd because it was proof for Sola Scripture.
Do the writings of the Church Fathers or Nicene-Constantinople Creed follow this structure?
In Christ
Pap
 

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Pap said:
"Extreme Sola Scriptura evangelical"? Are you aware of the Heptadic Structure of the BIBLE?
I Beg you. Please watch this little video by Chuck Missler. No I didn't google this, I've met Chuch several times and he's no fool.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d
This Catholic Church tried to hide this stuff that Ivan Panin discoverd because it was proof for Sola Scripture.
Do the writings of the Church Fathers or Nicene-Constantinople Creed follow this structure?
In Christ
Pap
Sorry, I don't know what you are talking about and I am out of this discussion. Be well.
 

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I thought Chuck Missler's explanation would have made it clear, but I'll try to summaries it for you.

Every single chapter and verse of the 66 books we call the Bible follow a mathematical formula. A formula that the Holy Spirit has put in it to prove its authentication. Chuck shows how it works. Only these 66 books have this formula (Heptadic structure). Please. It would only take 23.23 minutes to watch. The best 23.23minutes you will spend in a long time. The first couple of minutes he talks about the Gnostics then he get's "into it".
 

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Pap said:
I thought Chuck Missler's explanation would have made it clear, but I'll try to summaries it for you.

Every single chapter and verse of the 66 books we call the Bible follow a mathematical formula. A formula that the Holy Spirit has put in it to prove its authentication. Chuck shows how it works. Only these 66 books have this formula (Heptadic structure). Please. It would only take 23.23 minutes to watch. The best 23.23minutes you will spend in a long time. The first couple of minutes he talks about the Gnostics then he get's "into it".
Be well. Stay away from people who see "mathematical formulas" in the Bible.
 

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Are you going to ignore proof that the Bible is the infallible Word of GOD?
 

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I suppose it’s OK to use a rotting corpse to prove a belief, just as it was used with St Euphemia. But GOD forbid we use a little mathematics to prove the BIBLE.

Miracle during the Council of Chalcedon
The Council of Chalcedon was the fourth Ecumenical Council of the Christian Church which took place in the city of Chalcedon in the year 451. It repudiated the Eutychian doctrine of monophysitism, and set forth the Chalcedonian Creed, which describes the "full humanity and full divinity" of Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
The council sat in the cathedral consecrated in her name. Present at the council were 630 representatives from all the local Christian Churches. Both the Monophysite and Orthodox parties were well-represented at the council, so the meetings were quite contentious, and no decisive consensus could be reached. Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople suggested that the council submit the decision to the Holy Spirit, acting through Saint Euphemia.
Both parties wrote a confession of their faith and placed them in the tomb of the saint Euphemia which was sealed in the presence of the emperor Marcian (450-457), who placed the imperial seal on it and set a guard to watch over it for three days. During these days both sides fasted and prayed. After three days the tomb was opened and the scroll with the Orthodox confession was seen in the right hand of St Euphemia while the scroll of the Monophysites lay at her feet.


Does the Nicene-Constantinople Creed  permit us to use a corps like that or was that another Theologumeno that Created another Saint?
 

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Pap said:
Are you going to ignore proof that the Bible is the infallible Word of GOD?
Yes, I am going to ignore claims of people who have no idea what the Bible actually is that it is "the infallible Word of GOD." And especially if W is capitalized and GOD is in all caps - that's plain hysterical and not worth any further discussion. Be well and stay away from wacos.
 

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My Bible (and yours) has GOD'S name capitalized. Jesus’ name always has the first letter in caps. ie When the Bible says LORD, it's talking about GOD. When it says Lord, it's talking about Jesus. I also show reverence to HIS Bible by using a capital B or W when I call it HIS Word. You show it reverence by Kissing it, I show by giving it a capital.
PS You may also have noticed I use a capital i when I talk about myself. That is called English grammar.
I suppose when you die GOD might ask you what you have read. You’ll name all the writings of the Fathers. How sad HE will be when you tell HIM you haven’t read HIS Book or if you’ve place the writings of mere men over HIS writings.
 

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Pap said:
My Bible (and yours) has GOD'S name capitalized.
Well, first off, it's not God but the noun LORD that is capitalized - and even that, in the OT, not in NT. The reason why the word "Lord" is capitalized in OT is an old Jewish custom stemming from the tradition to replace the proper name Jehovah with the general noun "Lord," for purely supersticious reasons. And then - why should it matter? I repeat, just because I seem merely to know and appreciate what my Church teaches me, - the Word of God is not the text of any book, but the Person of Jesus Christ, the unique "hypostasis" Who joined God and man in Himself. I hope and pray you meet Him. Unless you do, all our exchanges are "chasing after the wind." I have. In the Church. Have you? Seriously?
 

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I, my dear friend do not leave my brain at the door when I worship at my Church. You however seem to accept everything your Church teaches with blind faith. We are comanded to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.

 

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Pap said:
I, my dear friend do not leave my brain at the door when I worship at my Church. You however seem to accept everything your Church teaches with blind faith. We are comanded to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.
I do not leave my brain at the door either, but I know, with the help of this brain, that the Bible Canon was compiled at the Laodicean Council of the Church in the late 300's. Before that, there was no way in the world to claim that the Gospel of John WAS the Bible, and the Gospels of Thomas, Judas or of some "little green spirits" were not. So, the Church actually gave us the Bible, by Her thorough, slow, careful deliberations. And similarly the Church gives us the dogmatics, and the applications of it to our everyday life - not any book or Internet URL. :)
 

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When I was Orthodox I was under the impression that the Bible was a GOD inspired book. With all their faults our uneducated priests never denied that it was the "word of GOD". Now you're trying to tell me it isn't?
I suppose the Bible contradicts the beliefes of the Church in many ways, so the best defence is attack.
 

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Pap said:
With all their faults our uneducated priests never denied that it was the "word of GOD". Now you're trying to tell me it isn't?
The Word of God is Christ.  Read the first chapter of the Gospel according to St. John. 

Heorhij isn't denying that the Bible is inspired by God.  He is giving you the history of its compilation.  It didn't drop down from heaven as it is today, the day after Christ's resurrection.  It's compilation has a long history and it involves the work of councils attended by bishops of the Church.

Prior to the late fourth/early fifth centuries there was no universally accepted rule as to what the Christian Bible consisted of.  Different communities had different lists of books they considered to be scripture.  This is well documented.  It was the Church which, a few centuries after Christ's death and resurrection, finally decided which books were in and which were out.
 

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Why won't you watch this short video? I guarentee you will be impressed.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d

(Rev 22:19 KJV)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

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(Mat 21:42 KJV)  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

(Mat 22:29 KJV)  Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

(Mat 26:54 KJV)  But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

(Mat 26:56 KJV)  But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

(Mark 12:24 KJV)  And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

(Mark 14:49 KJV)  I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

(Luke 24:27 KJV)  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

(Luke 24:32 KJV)  And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

(Luke 24:45 KJV)  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

(John 5:39 KJV)  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

(Acts 17:2 KJV)  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

(Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

(Acts 18:24 KJV)  And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

(Acts 18:28 KJV)  For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, showing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

(Rom 1:2 KJV)  (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

(Rom 15:4 KJV)  For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

(Rom 16:26 KJV)  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

(1 Cor 15:3 KJV)  For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

(1 Cor 15:4 KJV)  And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

(2 Tim 3:15 KJV)  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(2 Pet 3:16 KJV)  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

(Mark 12:10 KJV)  And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

(Mark 15:28 KJV)  And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

(Luke 4:21 KJV)  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

(John 2:22 KJV)  When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

(John 7:38 KJV)  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(John 7:42 KJV)  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

(John 10:35 KJV)  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

(John 13:18 KJV)  I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

(John 17:12 KJV)  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

(John 19:24 KJV)  They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

(John 19:28 KJV)  After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

(John 19:36 KJV)  For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

(John 19:37 KJV)  And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

(John 20:9 KJV)  For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

(Acts 1:16 KJV)  Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

(Acts 8:32 KJV)  The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

(Acts 8:35 KJV)  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

(Rom 4:3 KJV)  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

(Rom 9:17 KJV)  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

(Rom 10:11 KJV)  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Rom 11:2 KJV)  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

(Gal 3:8 KJV)  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

(Gal 3:22 KJV)  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

(Gal 4:30 KJV)  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

(1 Tim 5:18 KJV)  For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

(2 Tim 3:16 KJV)  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(James 2:8 KJV)  If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

(James 2:23 KJV)  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

(James 4:5 KJV)  Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

(1 Pet 2:6 KJV)  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

(2 Pet 1:20 KJV)  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

All these New Testament Verses use the words Scripture or Scriptures.
The reason I point these out to you is to show that all these verses are refering to the Old Testament
Old Testament is Scripture. So at least 1/2 your Bible is Scripture. Not just a History Book.
I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.
 

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Pap said:
Why won't you watch this short video? I guarentee you will be impressed.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d

(Rev 22:19 KJV)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
On this video, Id like to repeat what others have already said here. THE BIBLE DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE THE CHURCH DID.. Gee, its SO easy for you to point your finger at the ancient Church and say, "Oooh! They added Greek Philosophy and other crap into Christian Teaching blah3x".. Well, no matter how much you use the bible against us, one thing you cannot deny is that, it was the Orthodox Church who CHOOSE which books will be compiled into the Bible. It's exactly the reason why we DON'T have Gnostic heresies inside there. Also, those books were chosen by the standard of the faith that was ALREADY being held by the people of the Church eversince then. The Compilation of the Bible therefore, is a product of the Orthodox Faith, because our bishops wouldn't have placed those sacred books there had they been contradicting what we have always believed..
This only proves that without Holy Tradition, the Bible wouldn't have any REAL Theological Value. But BECAUSE of Holy Tradition, we Christians recognized that Indeed the Bible is TRULY written with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and God through the Bishops of the Church revealed to us, which of the myriad of religious writings then, were that which affirms the true faith, the true teachings of Christianity.
Therefore, you protestants CANNOT use the bible against us, because the Bible was compiled to affirm THE Faith, not some other faith..
 

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Pap said:
I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.[/b]
What do you mean "not sanctioned by the Orthodox Church"?? As Heorhij has said, THE CHURCH compiled the books of the Bible.. If we hadn't compiled it for you, then I ask you, what would have been your "infallible" basis for the faith??

Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction.. Again I repeat, the Bible was compiled on the basis of the faith that the early Christians have already held from the start, therefore the Bible cannot be use to argue against the tenets of Orthodox Christianity.
 

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You don't get it!
Yes your Church may have compiled it through the power of the Holy Spirit. Don't you wonder why only those 66 books were chosen? And doesn't it seem a little strange that ONLY those 66 books follow a particular mathematical pattern. It's proof that these books were GOD inspired. No other book, not even the Machabean books, not the Koran or even a one page essay can follow this pattern.  It is impossible.. Only GOD can accomplish such a feat.
Watch the video and I will shut up.
 

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Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction..
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
 

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Pap said:
You don't get it!
Yes your Church may have compiled it through the power of the Holy Spirit. Don't you wonder why only those 66 books were chosen? And doesn't it seem a little strange that ONLY those 66 books follow a particular mathematical pattern. It's proof that these books were GOD inspired. No other book, not even the Machabean books, not the Koran or even a one page essay can follow this pattern.  It is impossible.. Only GOD can accomplish such a feat.
Watch the video and I will shut up.
You don't have to shut up really, and forgive me for any offenses I have done..  :-\

Mathematics doesn't prove anything concerning this Theological problem.. So what if numbers on the Bible and patterns on the books have 7 on them? That doesn't "prove" that the Bible is God Inspired. I don't think The apostles, or the early Christians for that matter based there respect for scripture on these mathematical patterns! I mean,  My own birthday has many patterns that can lead to seven, does that mean I am God-like?? Or if person X, had his birthday on June 6 2006, does that mean that he is the anti-christ??


My point here is that, there was already a faith before the bible, and the bible was compiled according to that faith. The Bible is not infallible per se, because it was not even the basis for why there IS a Christianity in the first place. We must also be mindful of Holy Tradition, which affirms not only the value of the Bible for the Christian, but also affirms the authenticity and antiquity, of the True Christian faith.

(Modified for errors in grammar)
 

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Pap said:
Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction..
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings..
 

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Pap said:
Come to think of it, it was the Church who actually ALLOWED the use of what is now the bible, for the use of Christian instruction..
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Your ancestors may have hid the Bible from people, but not mine.  People were well-educated enough in the Faith in the 4th-10th Centuries to debate scripture and Theology in the streets.  You can thank the Lord for the reformers all you want, but they brought to the Church what was not needed; we knew the scriptures, read them and treasured them within the context of the continuous tradition of Saints from Christ's time (and before) to the present - they, OTOH, threw out the opinions of those who had read and known and lived the scripture for over 1,000 years (at the time).
 

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Pap said:
You don't get it!
Yes your Church may have compiled it through the power of the Holy Spirit. Don't you wonder why only those 66 books were chosen? And doesn't it seem a little strange that ONLY those 66 books follow a particular mathematical pattern. It's proof that these books were GOD inspired. No other book, not even the Machabean books, not the Koran or even a one page essay can follow this pattern.  It is impossible.. Only GOD can accomplish such a feat.
There were more than 66 accepted before the reformers; the Christian Church had for 1,000 years used the LXX as its basic OT.  Not until the incomplete and flawed scholarship of the modern age have we thrown out what the Church had known for so long.

Pap said:
Watch the video and I will shut up.
I sincerely doubt that.
 

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Pap said:
I, my dear friend do not leave my brain at the door when I worship at my Church. You however seem to accept everything your Church teaches with blind faith. We are comanded to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:11 KJV)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.
Oh really?  And who did the gathering.....?

As St. Peter warns (II Peter 3:)15 our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.  God, by the hand of St. Paul, so commands us explicitely (unlike your implicite example of the Bereans). II Thessalonians 2:15.  Since you have refered to you own fall from stedfastness, you accuse Heorhij of blindly accepting, without basis.
 

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Guys.
I believe I am a man of science. If I wasn't such a problem child I would have done well in any science field. It was science that convinced me that GOD is real. The science of Creation and the amount of science in the Bible. From Quantum physics, Hydrological cycles to currents, valleys and paths in the oceans deep. The Bible has the formula for "pie" and "e". I can go on but I won't. My son in law was an atheist till I pointed out the science in the bible. He is now one of the youth leaders at our church.
Others are attracted to the medical side, like the fact that the blood clotting factor is higher on the 8th day after birth. That is why GOD told the Jews to circumcise their boys on the 8th day. Adam had his rib removed to create Eve. The lower rib is the only bone that can regenerate. How did the writer of Genesis know that?
There are many things in the Bible that appeal to many people.
Mathematical structures are one tool that GOD uses. It's no big deal. In fact, it is a big deal because it can not be replicated by man.
 

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Pap said:
So at least 1/2 your Bible is Scripture. Not just a History Book.
Actually, the Fathers specifically call the OT Scripture, and the NT they split into Gospels, Acts, Apocalypse, and Letters.  So it would be more accurate to refer to the first "1/2" as Scripture.

Pap said:
I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.
If you're implying that the Orthodox Church has not sanctioned whatever writing you're going to put forward as "proof" that the New Testament is Scripture, then don't bother.  The New Testament is the foundation of the Church, the lens for interpreting all Scripture, and the only collection that covers the period before beginning of time (John 1:1) to after the end (countless places besides Revalation).

If you're implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, You'll need to prove it, or suffer the consequences of grossly misrepresenting the Orthodox position on scripture on an Orthodox board.  If this is indeed what you're implying, you'll need to offer proof (which I'm positive you won't find) in the next 48 hours, or clarify that this is not what you were implying, or you will be warned.  (Yes, this is an official moderatorial request for sources/proof or retraction, as per The Compiled Board policies (link}.
 

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Pap said:
What are the Scriptures? The writings of the Fathers?
They are now gathered into one volume called the Bible.
Even the Apostles themselves, at the forefront of the wave of Christianity, wouldn't think that all could be contained about the Goodness of Jesus Christ in one (1!) book:

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
 

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cleveland said:
...If you're implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, You'll need to prove it, or suffer the consequences of grossly misrepresenting the Orthodox position on scripture on an Orthodox board.  If this is indeed what you're implying, you'll need to offer proof (which I'm positive you won't find) in the next 48 hours, or clarify that this is not what you were implying, or you will be warned.  (Yes, this is an official moderatorial request for sources/proof or retraction, as per The Compiled Board policies (link}.
No. Your people hereon this Forum are implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament. I came here quoting the Bible and they tell me that the Bible is not held as high as the Church father's writings. Go back and read the previous posts.
 

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Pap said:
No. Your people hereon this Forum are implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament. I came here quoting the Bible and they tell me that the Bible is not held as high as the Church father's writings. Go back and read the previous posts.
I'm not dense, so if I'm not seeing where people have implied that the Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, it must be a bit of a stretch.  Why don't you enlighten me with quotes of what you're talking about, so I don't have to guess at which straw you're grasping at.
 

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Pap said:
Guys.
I believe I am a man of science. If I wasn't such a problem child I would have done well in any science field. It was science that convinced me that GOD is real. The science of Creation and the amount of science in the Bible. From Quantum physics, Hydrological cycles to currents, valleys and paths in the oceans deep. The Bible has the formula for "pie" and "e". I can go on but I won't. My son in law was an atheist till I pointed out the science in the bible. He is now one of the youth leaders at our church.
Others are attracted to the medical side, like the fact that the blood clotting factor is higher on the 8th day after birth. That is why GOD told the Jews to circumcise their boys on the 8th day. Adam had his rib removed to create Eve. The lower rib is the only bone that can regenerate. How did the writer of Genesis know that?
There are many things in the Bible that appeal to many people.
Mathematical structures are one tool that GOD uses. It's no big deal. In fact, it is a big deal because it can not be replicated by man.
yes, mathematics is a tool... However, it isn't the Number 7 that makes the Bible infallible or the sole basis of faith.. You must respect the fact that Holy Tradition is what gave rise, to the compilation of what is now the Bible.
 

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yes, mathematics is a tool... However, it isn't the Number 7 that makes the Bible infallible or the sole basis of faith.. You must respect the fact that Holy Tradition is what gave rise, to the compilation of what is now the Bible.
What I am saying is; if GOD has gone to so much trouble to ad this Heptadic structure, HE must have done it for a reason. Why do YOU think it isn't Infallible (Fallible) [Mr Cleveland, Hi hope you are reading what he's  saying]
Can you please point to something in the bible that proves its fallibility? I have read it over and over and whenever I find something strange, there has always been an explanation.
 

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I'm not dense, so if I'm not seeing where people have implied that the Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament, it must be a bit of a stretch.  Why don't you enlighten me with quotes of what you're talking about, so I don't have to guess at which straw you're grasping at.
No body called you dense. A little sensitive may be, but not dense. I'm trying to prove the Bible's infallibility and they are doing the debating.
You’ve obviously made up your mind to moderate me in 48 hours because you don’t like what I’m saying.
Reminds me of a news story last year where some evil Protestants were handing out copies of the new testament in a little Greek village. The local Priest organized a mob to chase them out of town. The poor missionaries were black and blue by the end of the whole affair.
 

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Pap said:
No body called you dense. A little sensitive may be, but not dense.
Hardly.  It's ok, I'm not "sensitive."

Pap said:
I'm trying to prove the Bible's infallibility and they are doing the debating. You’ve obviously made up your mind to moderate me in 48 hours because you don’t like what I’m saying. 
I haven't made up my mind; you made an ambiguous statement, and so I provided options for each eventuality.  However, since you haven't retracted, and in fact have re-asserted that you think others are arguing something they're not (i.e. that the Orthodox Church has not "endorsed" the New Testament), I haven't seen any reason to retract my potential warning.

You've made a fairly controversial claim (which, by their nature, are not verboten here); but in making this claim (i.e. that others have been arguing in such a way as to imply that the Orthodox Church does not endorse the New Testament) you have to prove your assertion, since it flies in the face of what our Church explicitly teaches!

Pap said:
Reminds me of a news story last year where some evil Protestants were handing out copies of the new testament in a little Greek village. The local Priest organized a mob to chase them out of town. The poor missionaries were black and blue by the end of the whole affair.
Real Christian-like of your people: going to an already Christian area to poach believers, rather than going to an area where people had not heard the gospel.  People in Eastern Europe are tired of Protestants telling their 50th-generation Christian children that they're not really Christian.  If they had focused the energy that they've directed at Eastern Europe elsewhere were the gospel is not preached or not as prevalent, the number of Christians in the world would be significantly higher.
 
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