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Pap

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Are you serious?
I'm arguing for SOLA SCRIPTURE and they are against it.
That is all that is happening here.
 

Pap

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BTW. Has any body watched the video?
http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d
 

Fr. George

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Pap said:
Are you serious?
Usually am (outside of the Random Postings thread).

Pap said:
I'm arguing for SOLA SCRIPTURE and they are against it.
Actually, you're trolling (i.e. attempting to inflame anger through your posts while not attempting to enter dialogue).

Pap said:
I suppose the Bible contradicts the beliefes of the Church in many ways, so the best defence is attack.
Pap said:
I can also prove that the other half (New Testament) is also Scripture but somehow I don't think you will bother reading it because it hasn't been sanctioned by the Orthodox Church.
Pap said:
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Pap said:
No. Your people hereon this Forum are implying that the Orthodox Church hasn't sanctioned the New Testament. I came here quoting the Bible and they tell me that the Bible is not held as high as the Church father's writings. Go back and read the previous posts.
Pap said:
I'm trying to prove the Bible's infallibility and they are doing the debating.
You’ve obviously made up your mind to moderate me in 48 hours because you don’t like what I’m saying.
Reminds me of a news story last year where some evil Protestants were handing out copies of the new testament in a little Greek village. The local Priest organized a mob to chase them out of town. The poor missionaries were black and blue by the end of the whole affair.
Why don't you address the actual points that some of us have brought up.  Let me summarize just a few of them:

ialmisry said:
As St. Peter warns (II Peter 3:)15 our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.  God, by the hand of St. Paul, so commands us explicitely (unlike your implicite example of the Bereans). II Thessalonians 2:15.  Since you have refered to you own fall from stedfastness, you accuse Heorhij of blindly accepting, without basis.
sohma_hatori said:
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings..
sohma_hatori said:
My point here is that, there was already a faith before the bible, and the bible was compiled according to that faith. The Bible is not infallible per se, because it was not even the basis for why there IS a Christianity in the first place. We must also be mindful of Holy Tradition, which affirms not only the value of the Bible for the Christian, but also affirms the authenticity and antiquity, of the True Christian faith.
cleveland said:
You've made a fairly controversial claim (which, by their nature, are not verboten here); but in making this claim (i.e. that others have been arguing in such a way as to imply that the Orthodox Church does not endorse the New Testament) you have to prove your assertion, since it flies in the face of what our Church explicitly teaches!
cleveland said:
Real Christian-like of your people: going to an already Christian area to poach believers, rather than going to an area where people had not heard the gospel.  People in Eastern Europe are tired of Protestants telling their 50th-generation Christian children that they're not really Christian.  If they had focused the energy that they've directed at Eastern Europe elsewhere were the gospel is not preached or not as prevalent, the number of Christians in the world would be significantly higher.
Pap said:
That is all that is happening here.
Not from where I'm sitting.  You're simultaneously trying to prove:

Sola Scriptura
Biblical Infallibility
That the statements of the Orthodox on this forum indicate that the Orthodox Church hasn't endorsed the New Testament
The Church has hid the scriptures from the people
Orthodox people in Eastern Europe chase off Bible-loving Christians
 

Pap

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You CAN NOT defend what the Orthodox Church (BTW That is an oxymoron) is doing to it’s people.
They’ve been using fear for decades to keep people from leaving her. A Greek would rather his family and friends be atheists than Protestants.
When My mother was dyeing, the local stupid moron Priest came in and opened his little doll house covered in icons. Pulled out some communion that was in a bottle no bigger than a thimble and gave her some in a coke spoon. He left without saying a word. He never prayed with her or even asked her if she trusted Christ. I ran out to drag him back in to talk to her but was stopped by my Orthodox relatives. Even at death they don’t try to help. I told her to pray to Christ and not Mary (as she would have) .She gave me the dirtiest look. If she had the energy, she would have got up off her death bed and given me a belting
I suppose my dumb brothers light candles for her and Dad and feed them KOLIVA.
Yes Sir. Your Church does not practice what the Bible teaches. I suppose the clergy will be punished in the end
(James 3:1 NIV)  Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
You can believe what you like, but when you place the writings of mere men and circular reasoning above the writings of GOD you lose.
(Col 2:8 KJV)  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I know I’m all over the place with my rantings but I am furious at the number of my loved ones that are now probably in Hell because of the Orthodox Church.

Tell me. Do you know if you are going to Heaven when you die?
I’m a Protestant and I know I’m going. I bet you and everyone else here can not be sure of their salvation.

 You're being placed on Post Moderation for your unsubstantiated innuendo against the Church which you refuse to acknowledge that you're making and you've refused to offer proof of your position.  You will still be able to post, but your posts must be approved before appearing on the forum.  We will not "silence" dissent, but we will force you to support your position, rather than rely on innuendo to Troll the forum.

The duration of your Post Moderation is 99 days, although we can reduce or increase that based on your posting behavior.

If you feel that this warning is in error, please PM Fr. Chris (the Forum Administrator) to appeal.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
 

PeterTheAleut

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Pap said:
I’m a Protestant and I know I’m going.
How presumptuous can you be to think you know the secret judgments of God!!?

Pap said:
I bet you and everyone else here can not be sure of their salvation.
In the end, I'd be willing to bet you can't, either.
 

Pap

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My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven.

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord, " and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-(Jn. 3:16)God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".

(Jn. 6:47)"He that believes on me has everlasting life"

(Jn. 17:3)"This is eternal life; that they may know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent:.

(I Jn. 5:11)"This is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life in in His Son"....

(I Jn. 5:13) "These things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life"...

(Jn. 14:6)" I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man can come to the Father except through me". -- Jesus Christ

Your religion uses one verse to make a doctrine because you're too busy reading the writings of the Church Fathers

(Mat 7:1 NIV)  "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
 

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Pap said:
My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven.
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?  They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.

 

PeterTheAleut

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Pap said:
My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven.

John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord, " and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

-(Jn. 3:16)God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life".

(Jn. 6:47)"He that believes on me has everlasting life"

(Jn. 17:3)"This is eternal life; that they may know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent:.

(I Jn. 5:11)"This is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life in in His Son"....

(I Jn. 5:13) "These things I have written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life"...

(Jn. 14:6)" I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life; no man can come to the Father except through me". -- Jesus Christ
You missed--or should I say you conveniently ignored--some verses.  (But then, why should I be surprised, seeing how you and your ilk have taken the entire Bible out of context since before the 1500's.  You see, Pap, there's a reason I'm no longer Protestant.)

Matthew 10:22 - "and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

Philippians 2:12 - "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

2 Timothy 2:11-13 - "The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful--for he cannot deny himself."

Hebrews 3:5-6 - "Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
but Christ was faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope."  (The NKJV translates this as "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.")

Revelation 2:26 - "He who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star."

(All verses quoted from the RSV)

Can you honestly say now that you will persevere to the end?  I don't know that I can say that.

Pap said:
Your religion uses one verse to make a doctrine because you're too busy reading the writings of the Church Fathers

(Mat 7:1 NIV)  "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
And what doctrine would that be, O Divine judge of our souls?
 

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Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?  They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Pap said:
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
Do you really care to know why we pray to Mary and the Saints (because they direct our hearts and minds to Christ), or are you content to just continue to troll our forum with ignorant garbage?
 

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PeterTheAleut
If I fail, I was never a "follower of Christ". I was a liar.
If I am a "follower of Christ" I will endure till the end.
Worship GOD in the name of Christ. Not GOD in the name of Mary or your Saint.
The bible also says that Heaven rejoices whenever a soul gets saved.
 

Pap

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PeterTheAleut said:
Pap said:
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
Do you really care to know why we pray to Mary and the Saints (because they direct our hearts and minds to Christ), or are you content to just continue to troll our forum with ignorant garbage?
I can tell, this is going  to be good.
Go ahead. Can you do it without circular reasoning? Can you do it Biblically?
 

PeterTheAleut

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Pap said:
PeterTheAleut
If I fail, I was never a "follower of Christ". I was a liar.
If I am a "follower of Christ" I will endure till the end.
I love it when the "perseverence of the saints" or "once saved, always saved" crowd confuses 5-Point Calvinism with Scripture to produce unbiblical stuff like this.


Pap said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Pap said:
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
Do you really care to know why we pray to Mary and the Saints (because they direct our hearts and minds to Christ), or are you content to just continue to troll our forum with ignorant garbage?
I can tell, this is going  to be good.
Go ahead. Can you do it without circular reasoning? Can you do it Biblically?
You obviously aren't here to engage us in serious discussion, so why should I?
 

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Oh?
OK. You can use circular reasoning and you don't have to quote the Bible.
Why are you guys so precious?
 

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Look who's taking his bat n  ball and going home :'(
 

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Every single Orthodox liturgical service (Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, Compline, Midnight Office, Requiem, Marriage, Funeral, Baptism, etc) are so stuffed full of scripture (OT and NT). it ain't funny. To claim the Orthodox Church rejects the NT is simply laughable, as others on this forum have correctly pointed out.

You have a very serious grudge against Orthodoxy, through the perhaps careless action of one priest with reagrd to your dying mother. To tar and feather Orthodoxy on this one incident is ridiculous. Regarding sola scriptura, so many on this thread have shown lime and again that scripture did not fall out of the sky, but that the Church of the Apostles, the Orthodox Church, determined which books made it into canon. Numerology had absolutely nothing to do with it, and it is an insult to the Apostles, the holy Fathers, and to the teachings of Christ Himself to suggest that it did. Numerology is a pagan pursuit, incompatible with Christianity, yet you use it to defend your mistaken position.
 

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It's not Numerology. There are no predictions made. It's only used to prove GOD'S input
 

LBK

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Pap said:
I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?
Desecrating? Corpse? Euphemia was already a proclaimed saint before her posthumous endorsement of Orthodox doctrine. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The saints and righteous ones are alive in Christ, though their earthly lives have ended.
 

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LBK said:
Pap said:
I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?
Desecrating? Corpse? Euphemia was already a proclaimed saint before her posthumous endorsement of Orthodox doctrine. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The saints and righteous ones are alive in Christ, though their earthly lives have ended.
Numerology Bad.
Desecrating Good. Haha.
If I use your logic, the numbers are in the Bible. So the Orthodox Church compiled the Bible Therefore numerology in the Bible is OK
My dear lost friend. What is a Saint? You people can't even judge yourselves, how can you know what is in the heart of a future Saint? The Bible says we are the saints, not an elect few that the Church chooses.
Who's righteous? I can name you at least a dozen righteous people who think nothing of giving away all their possessions and risk their lives to evangelize the world. Are they Saints with a capital S ? NO! Just saints.
BTW. That line that you spin; "God is the God of the living, not of the dead" doesn't wash.
I know many SDA's who have a similar line that they spin; GOD is a loving GOD he wouldn't........"
That is a mark of a CULT! Once you start using human reasoning, you deny Christ's sacrifice.
News Flash
Every Church has a relic from its Saint. Apparently a study has revealed that most saints must have had 15 fingers on each hand and 13 heads. There is an international market for Saint relics. Once a market is created, it invites corruption. How much would you pay for the finger of your favorite Saint?
 

LBK

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How much would you pay for the finger of your favorite Saint?
Holy relics are not trophies or keepsakes to be "collected" as one collects matchbooks, baseball cards or Ming dynasty porcelain. Holy relics are priceless vessels of the grace of God, and therefore to suggest that I would be willing to pay for a relic is utterly abominable.

If anyone were to give me a holy relic, I would treasure and honor it by embedding it in an icon of that saint, and donating that icon to my church so that as many people as possible could have the privilege of praying to, and honoring that saint through the veneration of his or her icon. But such ideas and practices are perhaps beyond your understanding.  :(
 

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You obviously have not read my post, or have chosen to misinterpret and distort it to fit your own mistaken ideas. This is what I wrote:

praying to, and honoring that saint through the veneration of his or her icon.
 
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Pap said:
Why won't you watch this short video? I guarentee you will be impressed.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d

(Rev 22:19 KJV)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Impressed by one a continual parade of Bible proving alleged experts? Why not add the Bible Code to your sales pitch?
 

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Pap said:
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints.
See, now you are just making up new rules so you can play God and exclude us from Heaven.

At first you said:

"My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven."


Jesus said to pray to Him.
Oops, you haven't read the Bible, have you?  NOWHERE does it tell us to pray to Jesus.  The most it tells us is to pray to the Father in Jesus' name.  This is a sticky point which Protestants admit when pushed but they always ignore it anway.  Praying to Jesus is not scriptural.  If you are sola scriptura STOP DOING IT!
 

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Pap said:
When I was Orthodox I was under the impression that the Bible was a GOD inspired book. With all their faults our uneducated priests never denied that it was the "word of GOD". Now you're trying to tell me it isn't?
As others have already said, the Word of God is Christ. The written Bible is a part of what we call the Holy Tradition of the Church. There are many other parts of it.

Pap said:
I suppose the Bible contradicts the beliefes of the Church in many ways, so the best defence is attack.
The Church interprets the Bible, not individual humans who tend to read a lot of things into it.
 

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I'm going to encourage any further participation in this thread to respond to the substantive arguments Pap has made, and not to the Trolling statements and innuendo in his posts.
 

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cleveland said:
I'm going to encourage any further participation in this thread to respond to the substantive arguments Pap has made, and not to the Trolling statements and innuendo in his posts.
And I am going to watch this thread, and if I see insulting remarks made, I may lock it. -Heorhij, section mod.
 

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Pap said:
It's not Numerology. There are no predictions made. It's only used to prove GOD'S input
What is your point? The Bible IS inspired BY GOD. Why else would the Orthodox hold it in such high regard? You need to answer a couple questions for a minute.
1) If the Bible is all we need, and SO clear in its message, why can't the Protestants agree on what it has to say? Almost every doctrine has multiple interpretations in the Protestant World.
2) If we are "once saved always saved", as you claim is the truth, how do you KNOW 100% that you are part of the ELECT that will go to Heaven? You say that we can't say 100% that WE KNOW, how do you know?
 
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My dear lost friend. What is a Saint? You people can't even judge yourselves, how can you know what is in the heart of a future Saint? The Bible says we are the saints, not an elect few that the Church chooses.
You are very mistaken on the Orthodox idea of a saint. The Church recognizes people who led exceptionally holy lives as saints, but there are many many more saints that have probably been forgotten.

I'm not sure if you have ever been to an Orthodox liturgy, but when the priest censes the church he doesn't just cense the icons of saints, but he censes the people too. The reason being is what you just said: "The Bible says we are the saints."
 
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Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings
So the Church was in error in the past?
I just had to point this out Pap, but sohma_ha was being facetious. The Orthodox liturgy has always had scripture readings in its 2000 year history; we even have church services where the entire gospel books are chanted out loud during Holy Week.

I think you are also misinterpreting our view of Biblical Infallibility. The Church teaches that the Bible is theologically infallible, but not scientifically infallible (the Bible should not be used as a science book). Sure, there are many things (as you pointed out) that have been proven to be scientifically and mathematically beneficial (like pi), but it doesn't mean everything is scientifically perfect. Either way, it is irrelevant to the Christian faith whether or not the Bible correctly calculated pi, it's the theology that matters.
 

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Indeed, I was being sarcastic on that qoute Pap..

antiderivative said:
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings
So the Church was in error in the past?
I just had to point this out Pap, but sohma_ha was being facetious. The Orthodox liturgy has always had scripture readings in its 2000 year history; we even have church services where the entire gospel books are chanted out loud during Holy Week.

I think you are also misinterpreting our view of Biblical Infallibility. The Church teaches that the Bible is theologically infallible, but not scientifically infallible (the Bible should not be used as a science book). Sure, there are many things (as you pointed out) that have been proven to be scientifically and mathematically beneficial (like pi), but it doesn't mean everything is scientifically perfect. Either way, it is irrelevant to the Christian faith whether or not the Bible correctly calculated pi, it's the theology that matters.
 

sohma_hatori

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Pap said:
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.
There are many instances in the Bible where Old Testament Holy People prayed to God saying, "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.. etc".. You know why? Because, THEY DO INTERCEDE FOR US, and what's more Pap, THERE INTERCESSION ACTUALLY MATTERS :):)

If God, would hear the prayers of this people for the sake of the prayers of those who intercede for us, how much more for us Christians when those who have led righteous lives that have gone before, would actually PRAY FOR US HERE ON EARTH.. What a joy it is and a blessing for us, that the saints pray for us!
 
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