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Abp. Job Getcha to the BBC: "We hope Moscow will turn to reason"

Iconodule

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On BBC Russian, an interesting interview with Archbishop Job of Telmessos.

Some parts that struck me:

If Patriarch Bartholomew were offended by Patriarch Kirill, he could according to the canons impose some canonical punishment on him for not having come to the Holy and Great Council, despite the fact that he promised it in this very temple in Chambesy in January 2016.

What sort of "canonical punishment" can a primate of one church impose on the primate of another autocephalous church? What would be the mechanism of enforcing such a punishment?

Other churches that exist in the Orthodox world today - from the Orthodox Church in Russia, continuing to the churches in Greece, Serbia, Romania, Poland, Albania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Czechoslovakia - the new churches were not confirmed by the Ecumenical Councils, this status was given them by Constantinople.

And, in principle, as some canonists believe, since these new autocephalies or new patriarchates were never confirmed by the Ecumenical Council, since they were created by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, then at some point the Ecumenical Patriarchate could, if necessary, revoke this status.




This I suppose is a clarification of Met. Elpidophoros "First Without Equals" statement regarding the revocation of autocephaly- that is, it only applies to churches granted autocephaly by the EP without the approval of an ecumenical council. In this light, the EP is not claiming to be able to revoke the autocephaly of Antioch, Alexandria, etc. So I guess it could be worse...

However, Abp Job continues to repeat the nonsense of how the EP granted autocephaly to Georgia.

Then he takes this idea to a logical conclusion:

BBC: If you develop this idea, then theoretically, can the current situation lead to the Ecumenical Patriarch simply removing the patriarchal dignity from the Moscow church or even abolishing the ROC?

A.J.: Of course, this is not all done in a day, and we hope that the way the Orthodox Church in Russia behaves at the moment is only temporary, and this, one can say, is a reflex reaction of a certain indignation, which she is experiencing.

We hope that she will turn to reason and return to unity with the Ecumenical Throne, because the Ecumenical Throne does not want to break off relations with the Orthodox Church in Russia.

But if such a situation persists for a long time, then of course, the Universal Throne, as the First throne of Universal Orthodoxy, will be forced to take certain measures.  To resort to certain decisions to ensure the unity of the church.


So, newsflash to those belonging to the churches of Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Poland, and Albania: the EP considers your autocephaly to be more like a probation period. You do not have real autocephaly and the EP reserves the right to withdraw your autocephaly if you don't behave.

Ukrainian enthusiasts for autocephaly, take note of this as well.

There's a lot more to be said about this interview.
 

Alpo

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It's a secular Western source. Thou shalt not trust on anything what Western media has to say on any religion.
 

Iconodule

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It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
 

Mor Ephrem

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Iconodule said:
On BBC Russian, an interesting interview with Archbishop Job of Telmessos.

Some parts that struck me:

If Patriarch Bartholomew were offended by Patriarch Kirill, he could according to the canons impose some canonical punishment on him for not having come to the Holy and Great Council, despite the fact that he promised it in this very temple in Chambesy in January 2016.

What sort of "canonical punishment" can a primate of one church impose on the primate of another autocephalous church? What would be the mechanism of enforcing such a punishment?
They also promised consensus/unanimity, IIRC.

So, newsflash to those belonging to the churches of Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Poland, and Albania: the EP considers your autocephaly to be more like a probation period. You do not have real autocephaly and the EP reserves the right to withdraw your autocephaly if you don't behave.

Ukrainian enthusiasts for autocephaly, take note of this as well.
I think Gorazd was right to designate the Ukrainian parallel jurisdiction “UOC-EP”...I don’t think it will be otherwise except in the nuanced sense you have just described (that autocephaly is no autocephaly at all).

There's a lot more to be said about this interview.
I’ll have to check it out later, but based on your highlights, it seems like garbage.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Iconodule said:
On BBC Russian, an interesting interview with Archbishop Job of Telmessos.

Some parts that struck me:

If Patriarch Bartholomew were offended by Patriarch Kirill, he could according to the canons impose some canonical punishment on him for not having come to the Holy and Great Council, despite the fact that he promised it in this very temple in Chambesy in January 2016.

What sort of "canonical punishment" can a primate of one church impose on the primate of another autocephalous church? What would be the mechanism of enforcing such a punishment?
They also promised consensus/unanimity, IIRC.

So, newsflash to those belonging to the churches of Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Poland, and Albania: the EP considers your autocephaly to be more like a probation period. You do not have real autocephaly and the EP reserves the right to withdraw your autocephaly if you don't behave.

Ukrainian enthusiasts for autocephaly, take note of this as well.
I think Gorazd was right to designate the Ukrainian parallel jurisdiction “UOC-EP”...I don’t think it will be otherwise except in the nuanced sense you have just described (that autocephaly is no autocephaly at all).

There's a lot more to be said about this interview.
I’ll have to check it out later, but based on your highlights, it seems like garbage.
Garbage in garbage out. I have a hard time telling the difference between the claims in this interview and a hot, stinky, festering trash heap.
 

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Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
I really doubt that:  as you say it is an interview and no record.

Archbishop has been giving a lot of interviews with the press lately:
https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/constantinople_patriarchy/73308/

https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/constantinople_patriarchy/73310/
 

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LOL someone needs meds.

Phanar hierarch: Church of Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine no longer exists

http://spzh.news/en/news/57245-v-ukraine-cerkvi-moskovskogo-patriarkhata-bolyshe-netijerarkh-fanara?fbclid=IwAR1ozb_w5F7jS-YrhmW5542OuCiNZNek1h1xNv3fcrijCun5uEUEm4RKB2Q
 

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I am using UOC-EP as long as there is no autocephaly yet. If autocephaly is granted, I will use the official name recognised by the EP.
 

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Actually, I think we are reading this a bit upside down.  Can the EP depose another Patriarch?  Surely, but the reverse is equally possible:

if we take the situation of Nestorius as an example, and nothing has been done under Patriarch Bartholomew’s name that even approaches the misconduct of Nestorius, but nontheless, using that as an example, it would appear that, if we admit that canonically the Moscow Patriarch has the same authority now that the Pope and Patriarch of All Africa had then, or the Patriarch of Antioch for that matter, the MP could depose the EP for heresy, with a hypothetical appeal to an ecumenical council being possible.  Or the EP could try to depose the MP, in the manner of what happened to Pope Dioscorus.  The removal of Nestorius however indicates that, from the question of historical precedent, regardless of what the Phanariot says, it alone does not have the ability to remove other Patriarchs; if Moscow could convincingly articulate a canonical or heresiological reason to depose the Patriarch, they could do it.

That said I am of the view that since none of this is likely the doing of the elderly Patriarch Bartholomew, the MP should wait until His All Holiness reposes.  At that time, whoever is truly behind this, whoever is responsible for the content of this interview, and so on, is likely to be enthroned as the new EP, and that is the person who, if the MP were to try to depose them using what we might call the “St. Cyril Procedure,” it would be most likely to succeed.  Because current Patriarch is a venerable, elderly bishop; the words coming from the Phanar contradict earlier statements and so on, the PR aspects of attempting to remove the current Patriarch would not be ideal, but if the MP waits, either the new Patriarch will be free of the influence of people like the Metropolitan of Bursa and will pursue a more conciliatory approach, or the new Patriarch will embody the doctrines espoused by the Metropolitan of Bursa and thus be an individual who could easily be deposed in the manner of Nestorius, with very wide-ranging support from the othet autocephalous churches.

This is the other aspect to consider: the EP is one tiny autocephalous church that is relevant primarily due to various autonomous churches under its omophorion, like the “Greek Orthodox Churches outside Greece,” ACROD, Finland, Ukraine.  Its actions have angered, upset and unnerved the majority of the 14 other autocephalous churches, most of which have much larger constituencies of the faithful under their direct ecclesiastical administration (only Jerusalem structurally bears any resemblance to the EP in its current state, which is of course due to the savage genocide of the Pontic Greeks and the enforced population exchange between Greece and Turkey).  So owing to various historical tragedies, the EP is less well constituted structurally than the majority of the autocephalous churches it is implicitly threatening with articles like this.

  At some point the Phanar will exhaust the not inconsiderable reserve of pity that exists for them given the dismal history that led to their current impoverished status, and at that point one can expect that the majority of churches will either see them as a threat to be dealt with, or write them off as a “paper tiger,” as a mere vocal nuissance not even worth responding to (at present, one could argue that this view might well be implicit in the deafening silence of the other autocephalous churches which has greated recent disagreeable EP proclamations; it seems not unreasonable to suggest that the Patriarchs of Antioch, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, et al, have remained silent and not commented on this not due to any fear, as someone suggested elsewhere, on their part, but rather due to a desire to avoid commenting on a situation which they consider beneath them).

Indeed, if we look at it that way, the thinly veiled threat against the other churches which boycotted the failed synod in 2016 (Bulgaria’s decision was actually largely based on cost/benefit analysis, IIRC), it almost seems like this statement is an intentional provocation, an effort to get someone other than Moscow to respond to the EP and thus engaged in this controversy.  Right now I think the most prudent course for any of the other churches is to simply ignore everything coming out of the EP other than direct communications, and these should pigeonholed or otherwise “acknowledged but not replied to” as much as possible.
 

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Gorazd said:
I am using UOC-EP as long as there is no autocephaly yet. If autocephaly is granted, I will use the official name recognised by the EP.
Happy schism to you!
 

ialmisry

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Iconodule said:
On BBC Russian, an interesting interview with Archbishop Job of Telmessos.

Some parts that struck me:

If Patriarch Bartholomew were offended by Patriarch Kirill, he could according to the canons impose some canonical punishment on him for not having come to the Holy and Great Council, despite the fact that he promised it in this very temple in Chambesy in January 2016.

What sort of "canonical punishment" can a primate of one church impose on the primate of another autocephalous church? What would be the mechanism of enforcing such a punishment?

Other churches that exist in the Orthodox world today - from the Orthodox Church in Russia, continuing to the churches in Greece, Serbia, Romania, Poland, Albania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Czechoslovakia - the new churches were not confirmed by the Ecumenical Councils, this status was given them by Constantinople.

And, in principle, as some canonists believe, since these new autocephalies or new patriarchates were never confirmed by the Ecumenical Council, since they were created by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, then at some point the Ecumenical Patriarchate could, if necessary, revoke this status.




This I suppose is a clarification of Met. Elpidophoros "First Without Equals" statement regarding the revocation of autocephaly- that is, it only applies to churches granted autocephaly by the EP without the approval of an ecumenical council. In this light, the EP is not claiming to be able to revoke the autocephaly of Antioch, Alexandria, etc. So I guess it could be worse...

However, Abp Job continues to repeat the nonsense of how the EP granted autocephaly to Georgia.

Then he takes this idea to a logical conclusion:

BBC: If you develop this idea, then theoretically, can the current situation lead to the Ecumenical Patriarch simply removing the patriarchal dignity from the Moscow church or even abolishing the ROC?

A.J.: Of course, this is not all done in a day, and we hope that the way the Orthodox Church in Russia behaves at the moment is only temporary, and this, one can say, is a reflex reaction of a certain indignation, which she is experiencing.

We hope that she will turn to reason and return to unity with the Ecumenical Throne, because the Ecumenical Throne does not want to break off relations with the Orthodox Church in Russia.

But if such a situation persists for a long time, then of course, the Universal Throne, as the First throne of Universal Orthodoxy, will be forced to take certain measures.  To resort to certain decisions to ensure the unity of the church.


So, newsflash to those belonging to the churches of Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Poland, and Albania: the EP considers your autocephaly to be more like a probation period. You do not have real autocephaly and the EP reserves the right to withdraw your autocephaly if you don't behave.

Ukrainian enthusiasts for autocephaly, take note of this as well.

There's a lot more to be said about this interview.
We hope that Abp. Getcha learns what he is talking about before speaking more.
 

ialmisry

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Iconodule said:
However, Abp Job continues to repeat the nonsense of how the EP granted autocephaly to Georgia.
HB the Catholicos Ilya II of All Georgia was at pains to make sure the Phanar agreed it was recognizing, not granting, autocephaly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d8CyHw8Fbs&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQYmpWNIwM&t=34s


Btw, Iconodule, I have to commend your honesty in this matter.
 

ialmisry

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Alpha60 said:
At some point the Phanar will exhaust the not inconsiderable reserve of pity that exists for them given the dismal history that led to their current impoverished status, and at that point one can expect that the majority of churches will either see them as a threat to be dealt with, or write them off as a “paper tiger,” as a mere vocal nuissance not even worth responding to (at present, one could argue that this view might well be implicit in the deafening silence of the other autocephalous churches which has greated recent disagreeable EP proclamations; it seems not unreasonable to suggest that the Patriarchs of Antioch, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, et al, have remained silent and not commented on this not due to any fear, as someone suggested elsewhere, on their part, but rather due to a desire to avoid commenting on a situation which they consider beneath them).
Like Shem and Japheth, they prefer to cover, than than expose, their father's nakedness.
 

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ialmisry said:
Alpha60 said:
At some point the Phanar will exhaust the not inconsiderable reserve of pity that exists for them given the dismal history that led to their current impoverished status, and at that point one can expect that the majority of churches will either see them as a threat to be dealt with, or write them off as a “paper tiger,” as a mere vocal nuissance not even worth responding to (at present, one could argue that this view might well be implicit in the deafening silence of the other autocephalous churches which has greated recent disagreeable EP proclamations; it seems not unreasonable to suggest that the Patriarchs of Antioch, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, et al, have remained silent and not commented on this not due to any fear, as someone suggested elsewhere, on their part, but rather due to a desire to avoid commenting on a situation which they consider beneath them).
Like Shem and Japheth, they prefer to cover, than than expose, their father's nakedness.
And this to me seems proper and charitable, up to a point, that point being at a minimum the repose of His All Holiness Bartholomew.  I really am not convinced this current scenario is due to any machinations on the part of an ageing and ailing Patriarch, and I think it would seem ghoulish if the other churches were to try to rise up at present and attempt to depose him.  Also there is the point that nothing the Patriarch himself has said personally really rises to an actionable threshold in terms of justifying an external intervention, and indeed His All Holiness is defended by very reasonable remarks he concerned regarding the nature of the Patriarchate and autocephaly in the early 1990s.  This was from an era when the most controversial act of Patriarch Bartholomew was to call the Roman Catholics “ontologically different” from the Orthodox, which is to say, not very controversial.

It would be much better to leave the matter until the next Patriarch, and then if that person continues down this path, which seems likely, because it seems likely these actions are endorsed by the Constantinopolitan Holy Synod, and if they are, they will likely enact a “young, energetic, media-savvy” kind of Patriarch to continue them, then that person could be deposed in the manner of Nestorius.  Furthermore, the example of St. Cyril and even the otherwise problematic history of Chalcedon suggests to us that subordinate ecclesiastical figures could also be deposed concurrently as part of this process, in order to remove the root causes of the schism and weed out error completely.
 

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Oh to be listening to the discussions the various Holy Synods are having over this.

To misquote Monty Python's Life of Brian "The Ecumenical Patriarch has been a naughty boy!".  That, or he is channelling Ms Trunchbull.
 

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Gorazd said:
I am using UOC-EP as long as there is no autocephaly yet.
The "UOC-EP" rejects its status as under the Pope Patriarch of Constantinople and doesn't commemorate him as its hierarch.

Two of the "UOC-EP" consider themselves autocephalous and the third considers itself to be the "UOC-MP".
 

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ialmisry said:
We hope that Abp. Getcha learns what he is talking about before speaking more.
AntonI said:
Oh to be listening to the discussions the various Holy Synods are having over this.
The EP is in the process of discovering special powers and statuses that he believes he had for many centuries, but which for many centuries he did not believe that he had.

 

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Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
 

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Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
Well, these are the words of the Archbishop himself. The BBC can get many things wrong but actually doctoring an interview is not something they tend to do. Also, what Archbishop Job says is pretty consistent with other public statements coming from him and other EP representatives.
 

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Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
If you want to watch the video of him talking, it's here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tukjwudjarM
 

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Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
If you are going to expect the BBC to have doctored the interview, then in this scenario, things are even worse than you imagined and Abp. Job is part of the UK-run conspiracy himself, Alpo: At 4:42, he says that the main influence on the EP's decision is the nation's political situation, and the camera switches and focuses on his hands where he makes the heart sign:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tukjwudjarM
Do you see that what influenced us the most was the suffering of people, many people suffered and suffer from the war in Ukraine and Donbass. Many people due to political questions, these are their words...: have aggression from Russia due to the politics of the Russian Church, they [don't?] find a place with the U.O.Church - MP. We got letters saying "Our conscience doesn't let us visit such churches."
Are Theresa May and Angela Merkel in the ILLUMINATI? Conspiracy theorists are convinced the leaders are in secretive sect because of similar hand gestures

Daily Mail, July 23, 2016



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3704890/Are-Theresa-Angela-Merkel-ILLUMINATI-Conspiracy-theorists-convinced-leaders-secretive-sect-similar-hand-gestures.html
But anyway, I don't have a serious opinion about that stuff and won't follow this tangent further here.
 

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Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Probably not, although it is the BBC World Service, which historically existed for propaganda purposes under the Foreign Office (it only recently became part of the BBC proper).
 

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rakovsky said:
Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
If you are going to expect the BBC to have doctored the interview, then in this scenario, things are even worse than you imagined and Abp. Job is part of the UK-run conspiracy himself, Alpo: At 4:42, he says that the main influence on the EP's decision is the nation's political situation, and the camera switches and focuses on his hands where he makes the heart sign:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tukjwudjarM
Do you see that what influenced us the most was the suffering of people, many people suffered and suffer from the war in Ukraine and Donbass. Many people due to political questions, these are their words...: have aggression from Russia due to the politics of the Russian Church, they [don't?] find a place with the U.O.Church - MP. We got letters saying "Our conscience doesn't let us visit such churches."
Are Theresa May and Angela Merkel in the ILLUMINATI? Conspiracy theorists are convinced the leaders are in secretive sect because of similar hand gestures

Daily Mail, July 23, 2016



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3704890/Are-Theresa-Angela-Merkel-ILLUMINATI-Conspiracy-theorists-convinced-leaders-secretive-sect-similar-hand-gestures.html
But anyway, I don't have a serious opinion about that stuff and won't follow this tangent further here.
I myself routinely use such a posture, and I can assure you it has everything to do with arthritis and nothing to do with my alleged membership in the Bavarian Illuminati... :p
 

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tukjwudjarM
Abp. Getcha of the EP is elatedly amused, breaking into a grin and smiling through at 0:22-0:31 and 6:50-7:55, as he says that:
(1) The UOC-MP doesn't exist anymore according to church rules and canons
(2) The MP hasn't lost anything because the UOC-MP de facto already has autocephaly, because the UOC-MP's leadership is chosen in Kiev, and the only significant difference is the UOC-MP's membership in the synod in Moscow.
(3) We hope that Moscow "returns to the Ecumenical Throne".
(4) The MP should see reason and if not, the EP must take measures.

Questions:
(A) If he believes that the UOC-MP already has autocephaly de facto, then why are some Ukrainians' complaints that they don't want to visit UOC-MP churches under the MP so important that the EP imposes autocephaly unilaterally?
(B) Why is this situation, where Ukrainians are suffering from conflict, the EP is revoking MP's territory in Ukraine, the MP and EP are in schism, and the EP can impose penal measures on the MP so amusing, fun and funny that Abp. Getcha grins at length about it?
(C) "Returns to the Ecumenical Throne"? Is this a normal way of talking about autocephalous churches in Orthodoxy?

 

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rakovsky said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tukjwudjarM
Abp. Getcha of the EP is elatedly amused, breaking into a grin and smiling through at 0:22-0:31 and 6:50-7:55, as he says that:
(1) The UOC-MP doesn't exist anymore according to church rules and canons
(2) The MP hasn't lost anything because the UOC-MP de facto already has autocephaly, because the UOC-MP's leadership is chosen in Kiev, and the only significant difference is the UOC-MP's membership in the synod in Moscow.
(3) We hope that Moscow "returns to the Ecumenical Throne".
(4) The MP should see reason and if not, the EP must take measures.

Questions:
(A) If he believes that the UOC-MP already has autocephaly de facto, then why are some Ukrainians' complaints that they don't want to visit UOC-MP churches under the MP so important that the EP imposes autocephaly unilaterally?
(B) Why is this situation, where Ukrainians are suffering from conflict, the EP is revoking MP's territory in Ukraine, the MP and EP are in schism, and the EP can impose penal measures on the MP so amusing, fun and funny that Abp. Getcha grins at length about it?
(C) "Returns to the Ecumenical Throne"? Is this a normal way of talking about autocephalous churches in Orthodoxy?

We must feel compassion toward such a person. He suffers from a consistent break with reality. For him up is down, down is up, good is evil, and evil is good. 
 

LizaSymonenko

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ICXCNIKA said:
We must feel compassion toward such a person. He suffers from a consistent break with reality. For him up is down, down is up, good is evil, and evil is good.
Wow!

May the Lord forgive you for your harsh judgement of others. 
 

ICXCNIKA

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LizaSymonenko said:
ICXCNIKA said:
We must feel compassion toward such a person. He suffers from a consistent break with reality. For him up is down, down is up, good is evil, and evil is good.
Wow!

May the Lord forgive you for your harsh judgement of others.
I am sorry Mam but your victim card is expired. Did your Bishop ever remove that monument to genocidal maniacs?
 

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Iconodule said:
Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
Well, these are the words of the Archbishop himself. The BBC can get many things wrong but actually doctoring an interview is not something they tend to do. Also, what Archbishop Job says is pretty consistent with other public statements coming from him and other EP representatives.
Fair enough. Still believe that secular media outlets should not be trusted on religious issues but I guess in this particular instance the quotes were not "doctored" if one wants to use expression like that. Generally speaking  tampering quotes doesn't necessarily mean anything malicious but rather misguided intent of making this or that more understandable. Misguided and erroneous but not necessarily malicious.
 

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Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
Well, these are the words of the Archbishop himself. The BBC can get many things wrong but actually doctoring an interview is not something they tend to do. Also, what Archbishop Job says is pretty consistent with other public statements coming from him and other EP representatives.
Fair enough. Still believe that secular media outlets should not be trusted on religious issues but I guess in this particular instance the quotes were not "doctored" if one wants to use expression like that. Generally speaking  tampering quotes doesn't necessarily mean anything malicious but rather misguided intent of making this or that more understandable. Misguided and erroneous but not necessarily malicious.

Given that the BBC is probably -less- biased than either Russian sources or Ukrainian sources in this, I would tend to actually put more credence in the BBC translating just what he said...and nothing more.

 

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Alpo said:
Fair enough. Still believe that secular media outlets should not be trusted on religious issues but I guess in this particular instance the quotes were not "doctored" if one wants to use expression like that. Generally speaking  tampering quotes doesn't necessarily mean anything malicious but rather misguided intent of making this or that more understandable. Misguided and erroneous but not necessarily malicious.
The main criticism I have there is that the Western mass media has built up a giant image of Patriarch Bartholomew, giving him very respectful interviews and portraying him (in my impression) as a kind of Pope of Orthodoxy. And now when this catastrophe hit, the same mass media seems to be trumpeting his decisions. So the problem is not necessarily in making up quotes (although the mass media has even done that on occasion), but in "spin".
 

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I don't see the MP deposing the EP.
I would think only a synaxis of all heads of autocephalous churches, or at least of the ancient churches as in the JP precedent, could do that.
 

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Gorazd said:
I don't see the MP deposing the EP.
I would think only a synaxis of all heads of autocephalous churches, or at least of the ancient churches as in the JP precedent, could do that.
MP stands for more problems.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Gorazd said:
I don't see the MP deposing the EP.
I would think only a synaxis of all heads of autocephalous churches, or at least of the ancient churches as in the JP precedent, could do that.
You are correct, although was the deposition of former Patriarch Irenaios really declares by a synaxis of only the ancient Churches?  I thought it was a synaxis of all except the OCA.
 

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DeniseDenise said:
Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
Alpo said:
Iconodule said:
It's an interview. Are you saying the BBC deliberately distorted the archbishop's words?
Don't know if it was delibirate or not but I've seen too many fake news about religious issues to trust on pretty much any news on religion except those published by religious people themselves. Western people don't understand religion anymore.
Well, these are the words of the Archbishop himself. The BBC can get many things wrong but actually doctoring an interview is not something they tend to do. Also, what Archbishop Job says is pretty consistent with other public statements coming from him and other EP representatives.
Fair enough. Still believe that secular media outlets should not be trusted on religious issues but I guess in this particular instance the quotes were not "doctored" if one wants to use expression like that. Generally speaking  tampering quotes doesn't necessarily mean anything malicious but rather misguided intent of making this or that more understandable. Misguided and erroneous but not necessarily malicious.

Given that the BBC is probably -less- biased than either Russian sources or Ukrainian sources in this, I would tend to actually put more credence in the BBC translating just what he said...and nothing more.
This is a valid point of course, and what is more, the statemenrs made by Archbishop Job seem to be in keeping with the general trend of the matter.

I merely felt compelled to point out that the BBC World Service, and indeed the entire BBC, has been used on occasion for purposes of propaganda, since the 1920s General Strike (wherein the BBC made great pains to appear neutral by interviewing strikers as well as opponents of the strike, but did not interview strike leaders or air certain statements by the Archbishops of York and Canterbury which could have been read as being pro-Strike).  So in general my view is that people should take the BBC and what it says with a grain of salt, but in this case, I expect their translation is completely accurate. 

AFAIK the BBC does not have a record of intentional mistranslations when doing propaganda, they prefer to take a more subtle approach.
 

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IreneOlinyk said:
Tzimis said:
MP stands for more problems.
Good one!  I admire your wit.
Its a real knee slapper is it not?    ::) 

Gorazd said:
I don't see the MP deposing the EP.
I would think only a synaxis of all heads of autocephalous churches, or at least of the ancient churches as in the JP precedent, could do that.
If this is true, it would work both ways.  My understanding, correct me if I am wrong, Mor, was that Pope St. Cyril deposed Nestorius, who responded by deposing St. Cyril, and thus the Council of Ephesus was called, which ultimately ratified St. Cyril’s deposition of Nestorius and made it official.  Meanwhile his deposition of Patriarch John of Antioch had no effect and the two later effected a resolution.

 
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