• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Abp. Job Getcha to the BBC: "We hope Moscow will turn to reason"

Justin Kolodziej

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
1,552
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
43
Faith
Kierkegaardian absurdity
Jurisdiction
Metropolis of Atlanta
Gorazd said:
I don't see the MP deposing the EP.
I would think only a synaxis of all heads of autocephalous churches, or at least of the ancient churches as in the JP precedent, could do that.
My fear, contrary to early angry comments that I hereby wish to repent of:

If the EP gets deposed alone, (or the MP,) the successor could take an even harder line in retaliation. An awful lot of hierarchs would have to be deposed before a more reasonable successor to either the MP or the EP could possibly be elected.

Seems to me now that not doing much for the moment isn't all that awful an idea.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,661
Reaction score
225
Points
63
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
The idea of mailing a Google-Translated letter to Met. Seraphim of Piraeus

expressing regret and concerns on the current schism seems far less farfetched and more constructive than the news and Abp. Getcha interviews that we've been presented with lately.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,661
Reaction score
225
Points
63
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Metropolitan Piraeus Seraphim about the geopolitical game around the independent Church of Ukraine "On the Pressure" (TV show Contra, 12th of  September, 2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=eQjJ7UPEly0

He has a giant beard.
 

Alpha60

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Location
Alphaville Zone Sud
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox
rakovsky said:
Metropolitan Piraeus Seraphim about the geopolitical game around the independent Church of Ukraine "On the Pressure" (TV show Contra, 12th of  September, 2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=eQjJ7UPEly0

He has a giant beard.
Could someone translate that for us into English?  Hopefully it is less offensive than Metropolitan Seraphim’s earlier remarks on the Jews and the Oriental Orthodox (for example, where he blamed the OO for the rise of Islam).
 

AntonI

Member
Joined
May 16, 2004
Messages
115
Reaction score
9
Points
18
Location
Birmingham
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Archdiocese of G.B. and Thayteira
The late 80's saw Prince Edward (now Earl of Wessex) organise a game show called "It's a Royal Knockout": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Knockout_Tournament

I feel it is perhaps time to organise an ecclesiastical version, "It's a Patriarchal Knockout", get them all to channel St Nicholas and have a massive punch-up...."My paterissa is bigger than your posokh"...
 

PJ26

Sr. Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
226
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
ROCOR
Russian Church doubtful the mental health of Constantinople representative who announced the revision of the ROC's current status

Moscow, November 6, Interfax – The Moscow Patriarchate has expressed concern about mental health of the Constantinople representative to the World Council of Churches Archbishop Job (Getcha) who made it clear that the current status of Russian Church can be revised and said that the UOC is no longer there.

"There are very disturbing statements of Archbishop Job (Getcha). We are seriously concerned about his mental and spiritual health. If necessary, we are ready to help a brother with treatment or with sending him to study in one of the seminaries of our Church," Patriarch Kirill's press secretary priest Alexander Volkov has wrote on his Facebook page.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14650

:laugh:
 

Gorazd

Archon
Joined
Jul 14, 2009
Messages
2,571
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Faith
7 Councils
Jurisdiction
First without Equals
PJ26 said:
Russian Church doubtful the mental health of Constantinople representative who announced the revision of the ROC's current status
Mental illness is not a joke, nor should it be used as a way to insult or harm a person one disagrees with.
 

PJ26

Sr. Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
226
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
ROCOR
As one who has family members who struggled with depression and took their own lives, I take the issue of mental illness very seriously.  This is called banter.  Don’t be such a snowflake.  ::)
 

Alpha60

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Location
Alphaville Zone Sud
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox
AntonI said:
The late 80's saw Prince Edward (now Earl of Wessex) organise a game show called "It's a Royal Knockout": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Knockout_Tournament

I feel it is perhaps time to organise an ecclesiastical version, "It's a Patriarchal Knockout", get them all to channel St Nicholas and have a massive punch-up...."My paterissa is bigger than your posokh"...
Dude, we’re not Roman Catholic. 

(Dancing bishops, game shows, boxing bishops and so on properly attach themselves to “World Youth Week” or whatever they call it.)
 

DeniseDenise

Taxiarches
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
6,854
Reaction score
56
Points
48
Age
51
Faith
Does it matter?
Jurisdiction
Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Gorazd said:
PJ26 said:
Russian Church doubtful the mental health of Constantinople representative who announced the revision of the ROC's current status
Mental illness is not a joke, nor should it be used as a way to insult or harm a person one disagrees with.

Besides, who is joking...some of what he is saying is not logical and would leave doubt that he is of 'sound mind'....
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,661
Reaction score
225
Points
63
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
AntonI said:
The late 80's saw Prince Edward (now Earl of Wessex) organise a game show called "It's a Royal Knockout": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Knockout_Tournament

I feel it is perhaps time to organise an ecclesiastical version, "It's a Patriarchal Knockout", get them all to channel St Nicholas and have a massive punch-up...."My paterissa is bigger than your posokh"...
Who did St Nicholas hit?
Athanasius hit Arius, IIRC.
 

Alpha60

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Location
Alphaville Zone Sud
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox
rakovsky said:
AntonI said:
The late 80's saw Prince Edward (now Earl of Wessex) organise a game show called "It's a Royal Knockout": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Knockout_Tournament

I feel it is perhaps time to organise an ecclesiastical version, "It's a Patriarchal Knockout", get them all to channel St Nicholas and have a massive punch-up...."My paterissa is bigger than your posokh"...
Who did St Nicholas hit?
Athanasius hit Arius, IIRC.
Nope, it was jolly old St. Nick.  St. Athanasius the Great as far as we know never hit anyone during his career (except I imagine, being a boy, in his childhood he probably got in a few boyhood scraps).  Furthermore St. Nicholas was immediately deposed as a bishop for violating the ancient canons prohibiting bishops from hitting people to attempt to bring repentance or punish them for their sins, but he prostrated himself and begged for forgiveness, and the council Fathers took pity on him owing to his remorse and the extremely inflammatory nature of what Arius was saying (in denying the deity of our lord Jesus Christ).

St. Athanasius was rather the protodeacon of the Church of Alexandria and accompanied St. Alexander to the council where he played a key role in presenting the case of the Church of Alexandria, explaining to the Emperor and the Council Fathers the rationale for deposing Presbyter Arius, the pernicous aspects of the Arian heresy, the ecclesiastical disobedience of Arius and so on.  And all but a handful of attendees were convinced, even the Emperor.  Later, Eusebius of Nicomedia and other dissenting Arian bishops maneuvered their way into the Emperor’s inner circle and he was baptized by this Eusebius; I believe the other major Eusebius, of Caesarea, also played a major role, by writing an epic hagiopgraphy of St. Constantine which he never finished in his lifetime, but he did complete a large portion which remains extant and is quite flattering.  Eusebius of Caesarea, on what one might call a fourth century flight of Latitudinarianism or Pietism, famously signed the declaration of the Council “with my hand, but not with my heart.”

But it was St. Nicholas who slapped Arius, and he did get in hot water for it.
 

Alpha60

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Location
Alphaville Zone Sud
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox
DeniseDenise said:
Gorazd said:
PJ26 said:
Russian Church doubtful the mental health of Constantinople representative who announced the revision of the ROC's current status
Mental illness is not a joke, nor should it be used as a way to insult or harm a person one disagrees with.

Besides, who is joking...some of what he is saying is not logical and would leave doubt that he is of 'sound mind'....
This is a valid point; I think we need to pray for the EP and their Holy Synod, that they might be blessed with the discernment to back off of this track, of claiming universal primacy, rather than merely hating on them.  This should be an issue that concerns Ukrainians as well, since if the EP claims what it is indicating it is claiming, the Ukrainians won’t get an autocephalous church per se, but at best an autonomous church that is styled as being autocephalous but which is subject to the whims of the Phanar, which might well already be experiencing exploitation or coercion of some sort.  So we need to pray for them, above any other consideration.
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,216
Reaction score
349
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Gorazd said:
PJ26 said:
Russian Church doubtful the mental health of Constantinople representative who announced the revision of the ROC's current status
Mental illness is not a joke, nor should it be used as a way to insult or harm a person one disagrees with.
The way he grins and expresses glee over division with the Russian Church is maybe most charitably seen as indicative of an imbalance. The other alternatives are even more worrying.
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
20
Points
38
Age
39
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Johnstown
I would say Abp. Job's statements logically follow from the premises of the current ecclesiology being offered in recent EP statements.

The most important statement, IMO, is the idea that, A) only an ecumenical council can grant autocephaly; B) pending an ecumenical council, the EP (and no one else) can grant a provisional, revocable autocephaly.

As far as I know, these ideas have been hinted at in previous EP statements but not stated together so clearly.

It's interesting in that, theoretically, it staves off accusations of "eastern Papism", because it recognizes the ecumenical council as a higher authority than the EP, yet also gives the EP tremendous power over the churches of Eastern Europe and the Balkans, which it regards as daughter churches whose autocephaly is only provisional.

Of course this power too is basically theoretical, since, without a friendly government and a sizable church faction, the EP has no teeth by which to enforce such claims. If the EP were to actually try and revoke the autocephaly of the churches in Russia, Serbia, etc. they would be met with derision. So the EP's only way to throw its self-understood weight around is these adventures with breakaway churches, with, again, the sponsorship of the local governments.

If, indeed, a council convenes to finally ratify the autocephaly of Russia, Bulgaria, etc. would the EP in fact be willing to accept it? Or will the Phanar's expert canonists find various reasons to deem the process irregular, uncanonical, invalid?
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,216
Reaction score
349
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Iconodule said:
I would say Abp. Job's statements logically follow from the premises of the current ecclesiology being offered in recent EP statements.

The most important statement, IMO, is the idea that, A) only an ecumenical council can grant autocephaly; B) pending an ecumenical council, the EP (and no one else) can grant a provisional, revocable autocephaly.

As far as I know, these ideas have been hinted at in previous EP statements but not stated together so clearly.

It's interesting in that, theoretically, it staves off accusations of "eastern Papism", because it recognizes the ecumenical council as a higher authority than the EP, yet also gives the EP tremendous power over the churches of Eastern Europe and the Balkans, which it regards as daughter churches whose autocephaly is only provisional.

Of course this power too is basically theoretical, since, without a friendly government and a sizable church faction, the EP has no teeth by which to enforce such claims. If the EP were to actually try and revoke the autocephaly of the churches in Russia, Serbia, etc. they would be met with derision. So the EP's only way to throw its self-understood weight around is these adventures with breakaway churches, with, again, the sponsorship of the local governments.

If, indeed, a council convenes to finally ratify the autocephaly of Russia, Bulgaria, etc. would the EP in fact be willing to accept it? Or will the Phanar's expert canonists find various reasons to deem the process irregular, uncanonical, invalid?
Don't they also claim that only they can call a council? And by the experience of the preparatory meetings for Crete, it was always the representative of the EP who decided who could speak and what the agenda would be. So even if they theoretically think a council is higher than the EP, they think of a council as an event largely controlled by the EP.
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
20
Points
38
Age
39
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Johnstown
Samn! said:
Don't they also claim that only they can call a council?
They probably do claim that somewhere. On the other hand, the final encyclical of the Crete council called Jerusalem 1672 a council of "universal authority" and that was not convened by the EP. 
 

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
9,346
Reaction score
589
Points
113
Age
24
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Faith
Big-O Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Exarchate of Gotham City
PJ26 said:
Russian Church doubtful the mental health of Constantinople representative who announced the revision of the ROC's current status

Moscow, November 6, Interfax – The Moscow Patriarchate has expressed concern about mental health of the Constantinople representative to the World Council of Churches Archbishop Job (Getcha) who made it clear that the current status of Russian Church can be revised and said that the UOC is no longer there.

"There are very disturbing statements of Archbishop Job (Getcha). We are seriously concerned about his mental and spiritual health. If necessary, we are ready to help a brother with treatment or with sending him to study in one of the seminaries of our Church," Patriarch Kirill's press secretary priest Alexander Volkov has wrote on his Facebook page.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=14650

:laugh:
Oh my God, Russian sense of humour is so amusingly inappropriate lol
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,661
Reaction score
225
Points
63
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
ICONODULE:
Iconodule said:
If, indeed, a council convenes to finally ratify the autocephaly of Russia, Bulgaria, etc. would the EP in fact be willing to accept it? Or will the Phanar's expert canonists find various reasons to deem the process irregular, uncanonical, invalid?
Maybe. If an ecumenical council gave them autocephaly and the ecumenical council was recognized for centuries, the Phanar, based on its current style, could go back and reinterpret it. Take Canon 28, for example. The canon says that three specific dioceses, including the "barbarian" bishops of those three dioceses, go under Constantinople. Since the 1920's, the Phanar has said that this means that ALL "barbarian" lands anywhere go under Constantinople, and from this he took another leap and concluded that the whole of North America should go under the Phanar.
Yet the canon does not say that anything besides those three named dioceses go under the Phanar. His interpretation of the Canon is so different than what it says that he would be able to reinterpret anything else said in a canon about Russia's autocephaly. He could claim that the autocephaly of "Russia" only applied to the church in the original "Rus" lands, ie. someplace in Scandinavia, or some such nonsense.


Didn't the heads of the Orthodox churches agree in the 15th to mid-17th centuries that Russia, whose bishops included Kiev's metropolitans at the time, should get autocephaly anyway?
And yet later in 1686 the EP made a statement that then (in 1686) the EP was transferring Kiev to Moscow's jurisdiction (a statement that the EP has fastened on for its current claims to Kiev)?
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,661
Reaction score
225
Points
63
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Iconodule said:
The most important statement, IMO, is the idea that, A) only an ecumenical council can grant autocephaly; B) pending an ecumenical council, the EP (and no one else) can grant a provisional, revocable autocephaly.

As far as I know, these ideas have been hinted at in previous EP statements but not stated together so clearly.

It's interesting in that, theoretically, it staves off accusations of "eastern Papism", because it recognizes the ecumenical council as a higher authority than the EP, yet also gives the EP tremendous power over the churches of Eastern Europe and the Balkans, which it regards as daughter churches whose autocephaly is only provisional.
The Pope built up his powers over many centuries, from seeing himself as the decisive "throne of Peter" in the first four centuries AD up to the 19th-21st centuries when he claimed infallibility. The EP appears to be claiming some version of what the EOs were complaining about in the 11th century regarding the Pope, ie. what one could call Eastern Papism. For example, the EP claims today, based on a few named canons in Chalcedon, that the EP can hear complaints as an appellate judge from any clergy anywhere against their own metropolitan, but IIRC as St Nicodemus explained in the Rudder/Pedalion, this is an incorrect reading of the canon - not only would the Pope have objected to such powers of the EP as trumping his own powers, but these were the kinds of supposed powers that the EOs were historically complaining about regarding the doctrines of Papal Supremacy.
 

ICXCNIKA

OC.Net Guru
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
1,574
Reaction score
27
Points
48
Location
Lincoln, Nebraska
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Crimean Orthodox Church-MP
I have seen a couple of stories today putting forward that Archbishop Job will be the new head of this schismatic undertaking. I wonder who is behind it?
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,661
Reaction score
225
Points
63
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Initiators of call to ban Ukrainian Orthodox Church say they want new national religion for Ukraine

“We have a right to our own Christianity, unlike any Orthodoxy,” Andrei Advienko declared to thunderous applause during a press conference on Monday at the Ukrinform agency in Kiev.

The organizers of the event presented an initiative to ban the activity of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, reports the site of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
... In Advienko’s opinion, this new religion should bear no resemblance to Orthodoxy: “I don’t know of a single country that professes Orthodoxy and is successful,” he emphasized.

The public figure’s speech was met by raucous applause.
http://orthochristian.com/110147.html
 

ICXCNIKA

OC.Net Guru
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
1,574
Reaction score
27
Points
48
Location
Lincoln, Nebraska
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Crimean Orthodox Church-MP
rakovsky said:
Initiators of call to ban Ukrainian Orthodox Church say they want new national religion for Ukraine

“We have a right to our own Christianity, unlike any Orthodoxy,” Andrei Advienko declared to thunderous applause during a press conference on Monday at the Ukrinform agency in Kiev.

The organizers of the event presented an initiative to ban the activity of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, reports the site of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
... In Advienko’s opinion, this new religion should bear no resemblance to Orthodoxy: “I don’t know of a single country that professes Orthodoxy and is successful,” he emphasized.

The public figure’s speech was met by raucous applause.
http://orthochristian.com/110147.html
Now that sounds more like the Ukraine we have come to know and love.
 

Alpha60

Taxiarches
Joined
Mar 14, 2017
Messages
5,793
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Location
Alphaville Zone Sud
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox
rakovsky said:
Initiators of call to ban Ukrainian Orthodox Church say they want new national religion for Ukraine

“We have a right to our own Christianity, unlike any Orthodoxy,” Andrei Advienko declared to thunderous applause during a press conference on Monday at the Ukrinform agency in Kiev.

The organizers of the event presented an initiative to ban the activity of the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine, reports the site of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
... In Advienko’s opinion, this new religion should bear no resemblance to Orthodoxy: “I don’t know of a single country that professes Orthodoxy and is successful,” he emphasized.

The public figure’s speech was met by raucous applause.
http://orthochristian.com/110147.html
This is deeply disturbing.  However, Ukraine is a part of the Council of Europe and the European Convention of Human Rights, which guarantees religious freedom.  And even if it wasn’t, well, the USSR with all its might, and the Ottoman Empire with all of its might, and the Roman Catholic Church through its mighty adherents like the Venetian Republic, and more recently various Islamist regimes, were unable to destroy Orthodoxy.  Even Enver Hoxha couldn’t do it, despite spending more energy on the total suppression of religion than any other dictator.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,661
Reaction score
225
Points
63
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
rakovsky said:
Metropolitan Piraeus Seraphim about the geopolitical game around the independent Church of Ukraine "On the Pressure" (TV show Contra, 12th of  September, 2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=eQjJ7UPEly0

He has a giant beard.
Rapha,

Can you or someone else here understand what he says in Greek?
 

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
9,346
Reaction score
589
Points
113
Age
24
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Faith
Big-O Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Exarchate of Gotham City

Antonis

Archon
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
2,996
Reaction score
1
Points
0
RaphaCam said:
rakovsky said:
rakovsky said:
Metropolitan Piraeus Seraphim about the geopolitical game around the independent Church of Ukraine "On the Pressure" (TV show Contra, 12th of  September, 2018)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=eQjJ7UPEly0

He has a giant beard.
Rapha,

Can you or someone else here understand what he says in Greek?
No, my Greek is very basic.
It's a long video that I don't really want to watch (Greek TV is... something), but he starts by emphasizing the Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and that she has no earthly head, but is led by Christ. He says that the Church must be governed according to her holy canons, and not by political interests, and that ethnophyletism remains a heresy. You can probably get an idea of where he's going from there.
 
Top