Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)

LizaSymonenko

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That would be true.

...as I am certain some priests considered Gebre's comments to be okay.

So, there you have it.
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Gebre has put forth his ideas on various matters and proclaimed them to be inviolable teachings of the Church, selectively quoting from the Fathers to suit his case. He is entitled to his opinion, but he has no right to go further and denounce as un-Orthodox anyone who believes otherwise, as he has indeed done on this forum, and, it seems, in his book.
Don't you do that when you post about icons? Doesn't everyone do that?
Iconoclasm is a declared heresy, the Church has anathematized the iconoclasts, and continues to do so to this day at the Synodikon of Orthodoxy on the Sunday of Orthodoxy. Many aspects of iconography I have written about over the years are in the light of formal and universal declarations by the Church.

Last time I checked, war was not a declared heresy.
 

TheTrisagion

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I don't really understand the "War is Heresy" statement.

A heresy is, by definition, a wrong belief.  War isn't a belief, it is an ongoing action.  There are cold wars, hot wars, technology wars, etc., but those are actions taken by one group against another.  It would be like saying "sleeping through liturgy is heresy" or "stealing is heresy".  It may be sinful, but it is not heresy.
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LizaSymonenko said:
...as some are not.
And is she an  ecumenical council to declare that? Isn't overauthority of some laymen the problem being discussed in this thread?
Supply proof that I have been in error when I post on iconography. As for the "heretic" label, yes, I have often called this or that "iconographic" image heretical in content, whether painted in honest ignorance or deliberately to promote a cause or ideology. Do you object to that?
 

Asteriktos

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TheTrisagion said:
I don't really understand the "War is Heresy" statement.

A heresy is, by definition, a wrong belief.  War isn't a belief, it is an ongoing action.  There are cold wars, hot wars, technology wars, etc., but those are actions taken by one group against another.  It would be like saying "sleeping through liturgy is heresy" or "stealing is heresy".  It may be sinful, but it is not heresy.
I believe it was St. Theodore the Studite that once argued that a divorce was heresy...


Not that I'm saying it was in that situation. Maybe. Probably.
 

Fr. George

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Michał Kalina said:
LizaSymonenko said:
...as some are not.
And is she an  ecumenical council to declare that? Isn't overauthority of some laymen the problem being discussed in this thread?
I'm not sure that all authoritative issues need to rise to the level of Hierarch, Synod, or Ecumenical Council.  There are generally accepted principles and standards that can be applied by all - otherwise, we would be paralyzed waiting for each level of administration to address the myriad of questions and challenges that arise day-to-day.

Along these lines, I can understand why you would feel this way about LBK's participation in icon discussions as the tone may seem similar to Gebre's usual style.  However, I find that the great difference in substantive approach between the two negates any apparent similarity.  LBK speaks about icons from a researched and reasonable position that is in line with the overwhelming majority of Orthodox sources and tradition on the subject, and keeps responses only to discussions of the substance of the icons themselves and the underlying theological problems seen in them.  Gebre's approach to the pacifist issue is more problematic considering the history of the Church-state relationship and the willingness to bless the soldiers (even if we don't bless the plans, ideals, etc.).  I am sympathetic to his position - I believe that war is never justified from a Christian moral POV, that it always must be repented of (since the taking of a life is a traumatic event for the soul regardless of the justification for doing it), and that we don't do a good enough job of promoting a peaceful agenda.  But I would never take it to the level of implying (or openly stating) that it is a dogmatic truth of Christianity that we must always be pacifists.  It is an untenable position.

(p.s. I only highlighted the two individuals to contrast good and bad approaches to dogmatic questions, NOT to start a debate about either user personally.)
 

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This is chanted daily at the beginning of Matins (together with the preceding Psalms 19 and 20 it's part of an old mini-service for the Orthodox Emperors):

Troparion of the Holy Cross, Tone I:

    O Lord, save your people,
    and bless your inheritance!
    Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians
    over their adversaries (literally: the barbarians),
    and by virtue of your cross,
    preserve your habitation.
And no, there's no allegory to be read into it (barbarians ≠ demons).
 

Mor Ephrem

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rakovsky said:
Anyway, Gebre is Ethiopian Orthodox, so why get bent out of shape? Do you know how many things in the Oriental Churches we could disagree with? They don't even accept many of our infallible(?) ecumenical councils. One of the largest recent conversions to Oriental Orthodoxy was the Ras Tafari group, and in mentioning this I am not downgrading them, but my guess is that Oriental Orthodox are less strict about things.

How many times could we read books by an Oriental Orthodox writer talking about the "Orthodox Church" and disagree? You are very incisive in your thinking, and I would like to see you use your good energy, thinking, and dedication to focus on issues for canonical Churches, like whether our churches should be split over calendars, or whether we should have 8 or more canonical jurisdictions in the US in the first place?

Now if you want to talk about animal sacrifice, circumcision, or Christology in Oriental churches, that's a different story. In fact, you are tempting me to go into the CONTINUANCE OF THE PENTAGONAL RING OF SOLOMON IN ETHIOPIAN ORTHODOXY.

;)
I'm surprised that it took 271 posts before we got to this strategy.  Afro-Caribbean Rasta Spirituality (© JamesR, 2013) strikes again!  Good grief... 
 

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TheTrisagion said:
I don't really understand the "War is Heresy" statement.

A heresy is, by definition, a wrong belief.  War isn't a belief, it is an ongoing action.  There are cold wars, hot wars, technology wars, etc., but those are actions taken by one group against another.  It would be like saying "sleeping through liturgy is heresy" or "stealing is heresy".  It may be sinful, but it is not heresy.
This relates directly to the issue at hand. Gebre is more often than not unclear in his statements. He will say "this book or post is an opinion" but then makes a matter of fact statement, and in this particular case it is unbelievably general. For instance, his pacifist stance itself makes little to no sense, he will say I am a pacifist but not a passive-ist, which makes little to no sense to me. I asked him about that statement and he said that he adheres to the original definition of pacifism, before it was perverted. Also, the man enjoys football and boxing, two very violent sports. I would argue that violence makes far less sense in those arenas and is far less acceptable than defending a nation being aggressed against or a person being victimized, not Gebre!
 

TheTrisagion

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Ioannes said:
TheTrisagion said:
I don't really understand the "War is Heresy" statement.

A heresy is, by definition, a wrong belief.  War isn't a belief, it is an ongoing action.  There are cold wars, hot wars, technology wars, etc., but those are actions taken by one group against another.  It would be like saying "sleeping through liturgy is heresy" or "stealing is heresy".  It may be sinful, but it is not heresy.
This relates directly to the issue at hand. Gebre is more often than not unclear in his statements. He will say "this book or post is an opinion" but then makes a matter of fact statement, and in this particular case it is unbelievably general. For instance, his pacifist stance itself makes little to no sense, he will say I am a pacifist but not a passive-ist, which makes little to no sense to me. I asked him about that statement and he said that he adheres to the original definition of pacifism, before it was perverted. Also, the man enjoys football and boxing, two very violent sports. I would argue that violence makes far less sense in those arenas and is far less acceptable than defending a nation being aggressed against or a person being victimized, not Gebre!
I continue to be uncomfortable singling out one person.  I'm sure anyone could find what they perceive to be hypocrisies in any one of our lives.  I don't see liking boxing and football incompatible with pacifism unless they start having fights to the death.
 

rakovsky

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Mor Ephrem said:
I'm surprised that it took 271 posts before we got to this strategy.  Afro-Caribbean Rasta Spirituality (© JamesR, 2013) strikes again!  Good grief...   
I know. Can't we all just go back to talking about the Ring of King Solomon in Ethiopian Orthodoxy?
Two of the symbols within Rastafarianism are the royal ring of Haille Selassie and the Rastafarianism bible, the Holy Piby.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church gave the ring to Haille Selassie when he pledged loyalty to the church. The ring was said to have belonged to King Solomon who had given it to the queen of Sheba so that she in turn could give it to their son prince Menelik I of Ethiopia. He became the first King in a dynasty that lasted for more than 3000 years and ended with the death of Haille Selassie. When he died in 1975 the ring disappeared.

Though it is said that Bob Marley later got the ring in his possession when he met with Prince Wossen in London in 1977. Even this time it disappeared with the death of Bob Marley.
http://paulboglejamaica.home.comcast.net/~PaulBogleJamaica/rasta.html
 

LBK

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rakovsky said:
Mor Ephrem said:
I'm surprised that it took 271 posts before we got to this strategy.  Afro-Caribbean Rasta Spirituality (© JamesR, 2013) strikes again!  Good grief...  
I know. Can't we all just go back to talking about the Ring of King Solomon in Ethiopian Orthodoxy?
You should take it up in the thread you started for that purpose, not derail this thread.
 

Mor Ephrem

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LBK said:
rakovsky said:
Mor Ephrem said:
I'm surprised that it took 271 posts before we got to this strategy.  Afro-Caribbean Rasta Spirituality (© JamesR, 2013) strikes again!  Good grief...  
I know. Can't we all just go back to talking about the Ring of King Solomon in Ethiopian Orthodoxy?
You should take it up in the thread you started for that purpose, not derail this thread.
This. 

Plus, as I recall, that had less to do with the Ring of Solomon and Ethiopian Orthodoxy in particular but with the Ring and Orthodoxy in general.  How important can this thing possibly be if almost no one has heard of it?  I have a graduate theological degree, and your post was the first time I ever heard of such a thing.  We have more collective awareness of digging up dead bishops and seating their vested bones on thrones in order to "preside" over synods, "ordain" people, etc. than we do about Solomon's Ghostbuster Ring.  It really does seem arcane even among the arcane.  Oh well.     
 

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TheTrisagion said:
Ioannes said:
TheTrisagion said:
I don't really understand the "War is Heresy" statement.

A heresy is, by definition, a wrong belief.  War isn't a belief, it is an ongoing action.  There are cold wars, hot wars, technology wars, etc., but those are actions taken by one group against another.  It would be like saying "sleeping through liturgy is heresy" or "stealing is heresy".  It may be sinful, but it is not heresy.
This relates directly to the issue at hand. Gebre is more often than not unclear in his statements. He will say "this book or post is an opinion" but then makes a matter of fact statement, and in this particular case it is unbelievably general. For instance, his pacifist stance itself makes little to no sense, he will say I am a pacifist but not a passive-ist, which makes little to no sense to me. I asked him about that statement and he said that he adheres to the original definition of pacifism, before it was perverted. Also, the man enjoys football and boxing, two very violent sports. I would argue that violence makes far less sense in those arenas and is far less acceptable than defending a nation being aggressed against or a person being victimized, not Gebre!
I continue to be uncomfortable singling out one person.  I'm sure anyone could find what they perceive to be hypocrisies in any one of our lives.  I don't see liking boxing and football incompatible with pacifism unless they start having fights to the death.
Pacifism is defined as all violence, including war, are unjustifiable.
 

LBK

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Ioannes said:
TheTrisagion said:
Ioannes said:
TheTrisagion said:
I don't really understand the "War is Heresy" statement.

A heresy is, by definition, a wrong belief.  War isn't a belief, it is an ongoing action.  There are cold wars, hot wars, technology wars, etc., but those are actions taken by one group against another.  It would be like saying "sleeping through liturgy is heresy" or "stealing is heresy".  It may be sinful, but it is not heresy.
This relates directly to the issue at hand. Gebre is more often than not unclear in his statements. He will say "this book or post is an opinion" but then makes a matter of fact statement, and in this particular case it is unbelievably general. For instance, his pacifist stance itself makes little to no sense, he will say I am a pacifist but not a passive-ist, which makes little to no sense to me. I asked him about that statement and he said that he adheres to the original definition of pacifism, before it was perverted. Also, the man enjoys football and boxing, two very violent sports. I would argue that violence makes far less sense in those arenas and is far less acceptable than defending a nation being aggressed against or a person being victimized, not Gebre!
I continue to be uncomfortable singling out one person.  I'm sure anyone could find what they perceive to be hypocrisies in any one of our lives.  I don't see liking boxing and football incompatible with pacifism unless they start having fights to the death.
Pacifism is defined as all violence, including war, are unjustifiable.
Indeed. And if the object of a "sport" such as boxing is to knock the snot out of your opponent (if not knock him out entirely), how is this not violence?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
How important can this thing possibly be if almost no one has heard of it?  I have a graduate theological degree, and your post was the first time I ever heard of such a thing.  We have more collective awareness of digging up dead bishops and seating their vested bones on thrones in order to "preside" over synods, "ordain" people, etc. than we do about Solomon's Ghostbuster Ring.  It really does seem arcane even among the arcane.  Oh well.     
Funny. :)
 

rakovsky

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LBK said:
rakovsky said:
Ioannes said:
Pacifism is defined as all violence, including war, are unjustifiable.
There's different definitions.
Such as?
Definition of PACIFISM
1: opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2: an attitude or policy of nonresistance
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pacifism
 
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