Against Gebredoxy, the error of (name removed) (AKA Gebre Menfes Kidus)

Kerdy

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LBK said:
Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
TheTrisagion said:
I was not aware that you were granted the gift of mind reading.  ::)

There was a million ways to more constructively address this issue than this thread, and this is coming from a guy who is intimately acquainted with bad taste as you can see from my parody thread on abortionist whores/horses.
Once again, this issue had been privately discussed for some length of time a few years maybe. I told Gebre that by misusing quotes he is misleading people and therefore being dishonest. It is unacceptable to portray the church taking a position that it does not take. I informed Gebre that this would happen, he continued to interpret it as a personal attack, as he does most all criticism, and then refused to discuss it anymore. I explained to him that I would post this publicly. I gave him the letter and ample time to respond to it. Again, as I said repeatedly, it is not about his pacifist stance and I explained that to him on numerous occasions, it is the simple fact he is being dishonest and misusing other peoples writings, namely the church fathers as can clearly be seen in the OP. He refused to respond privately therefore I posted it publicly so people would not be misled. He has many people on his facebook and I would not want someone outside Orthodoxy to think that it is a requirement that they be pacifist to be Orthodox. Or that the military and all soldiers are evil, which is NOT the position of the church.

Mind reading? Nah, thankfully, which is why I said "likely" and made that assumption based on his inability to address criticism directed towards him. Which is odd for a guy that criticizes nearly everyone who does not agree with him. The simple fact is he has been dishonest, refused to acknowledge this, to me, clergy, and others and seems to take it as a personal attack against his character. It is an assumption based on my many discussions with him.
If I may ask, if he spoke to his priest first and has maintained dialogue with his priest on this matter, would you then no longer take issue with his views and expressions?
The fact that Gebre is cagey about who his priest is raises a red flag with me. If anything, saying "this is what my priest teaches", and allowing people to confirm this lets Gebre off the hook to a great degree.
I understand this, I really do, but I would also be hesitant to provide my priests information to be harassed by someone I hardly know from the internet.  If this is such a great issue, I would think the proper procedure would be to have Ioannes' priest run it up the chain and trust it would be corrected if it needed to be corrected.
 

Kerdy

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Ioannes said:
Kerdy, I am not sure how one can disagree about misquoting people, church fathers, and making up quotes. It is pretty cut and dry, as evidenced by the OP. He has never once explained why he has misused church fathers, he has never defended it, but avoided it entirely.
In the event you haven't noticed, he is usually non-confrontational unless it’s about abortion and even then it’s limited.
 

Ioannes

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Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
... I am making clear with most statements that this is my assumption ...
Thank you for your humble honestly here.  It is most appreciated!

Having said that, I suppose the matter is settled.  You both have exchanged your understanding of the Church Fathers.  Each of you have taken the others words as honestly as possible.  Maintain the friendship and trust the other person.

For the record, my personal views are not the same as his, but I highly respect his views.  I would love for the world to hold true to his ideals, but I know the world never will and when push comes to shove, I will steamroll right over someone if I think it is required, without hesitation.  Gebre would not.  
Well, once again, it is not views. If you quote a father saying he supports your view on pacifism, but the man wrote canons speaking on when war is a necessary evil and even violence, that is not interpretation. When you completely misquote someone, or cherry pick and ignore the entirety of their writings, that is being dishonest, not interpretive.
 

Iconodule

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Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
Kerdy, I am not sure how one can disagree about misquoting people, church fathers, and making up quotes. It is pretty cut and dry, as evidenced by the OP. He has never once explained why he has misused church fathers, he has never defended it, but avoided it entirely.
In the event you haven't noticed, he is usually non-confrontational unless it’s about abortion and even then it’s limited.
See the Obama and Harry Potter thread and get back to us.
 

LBK

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Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
Kerdy, I am not sure how one can disagree about misquoting people, church fathers, and making up quotes. It is pretty cut and dry, as evidenced by the OP. He has never once explained why he has misused church fathers, he has never defended it, but avoided it entirely.
In the event you haven't noticed, he is usually non-confrontational unless it’s about abortion and even then it’s limited.
You haven't been on this forum long enough. Quinault's posts on this get to the heart of the matter.
 

LizaSymonenko

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TheTrisagion said:
LizaSymonenko said:
I know who his priest is.  I know who his bishop is.

No, I will not tell anyone.
AHA!  Someone who is complicit in Gebredoxy!  Next thread... "Against Lizadoxy, the error of Liza Symonenko aka Liza Symonenko"  ;D
LOL!  Bring it on!

I certainly have mispoken more than once, and you probably have good reason to correct me.

My name is who I am, my jurisdiction is clearly stated, my parish website is in my profile.   In other words, I am an open book.

 

LizaSymonenko

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LBK said:
Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
Kerdy, I am not sure how one can disagree about misquoting people, church fathers, and making up quotes. It is pretty cut and dry, as evidenced by the OP. He has never once explained why he has misused church fathers, he has never defended it, but avoided it entirely.
In the event you haven't noticed, he is usually non-confrontational unless it’s about abortion and even then it’s limited.
You haven't been on this forum long enough. Quinault's posts on this get to the heart of the matter.
I agree.  I feel her pain at the anti-soldier posts and while I would choose peace, I would always support those who sacrifice in order to allow me to live in peace....unless, they were blatantly and purposefully murdering, instead of killing.
 

Ioannes

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Kerdy said:
LBK said:
Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
TheTrisagion said:
I was not aware that you were granted the gift of mind reading.  ::)

There was a million ways to more constructively address this issue than this thread, and this is coming from a guy who is intimately acquainted with bad taste as you can see from my parody thread on abortionist whores/horses.
Once again, this issue had been privately discussed for some length of time a few years maybe. I told Gebre that by misusing quotes he is misleading people and therefore being dishonest. It is unacceptable to portray the church taking a position that it does not take. I informed Gebre that this would happen, he continued to interpret it as a personal attack, as he does most all criticism, and then refused to discuss it anymore. I explained to him that I would post this publicly. I gave him the letter and ample time to respond to it. Again, as I said repeatedly, it is not about his pacifist stance and I explained that to him on numerous occasions, it is the simple fact he is being dishonest and misusing other peoples writings, namely the church fathers as can clearly be seen in the OP. He refused to respond privately therefore I posted it publicly so people would not be misled. He has many people on his facebook and I would not want someone outside Orthodoxy to think that it is a requirement that they be pacifist to be Orthodox. Or that the military and all soldiers are evil, which is NOT the position of the church.

Mind reading? Nah, thankfully, which is why I said "likely" and made that assumption based on his inability to address criticism directed towards him. Which is odd for a guy that criticizes nearly everyone who does not agree with him. The simple fact is he has been dishonest, refused to acknowledge this, to me, clergy, and others and seems to take it as a personal attack against his character. It is an assumption based on my many discussions with him.
If I may ask, if he spoke to his priest first and has maintained dialogue with his priest on this matter, would you then no longer take issue with his views and expressions?
The fact that Gebre is cagey about who his priest is raises a red flag with me. If anything, saying "this is what my priest teaches", and allowing people to confirm this lets Gebre off the hook to a great degree.
I understand this, I really do, but I would also be hesitant to provide my priests information to be harassed by someone I hardly know from the internet.  If this is such a great issue, I would think the proper procedure would be to have Ioannes' priest run it up the chain and trust it would be corrected if it needed to be corrected.
That is absolutely correct and I do not think anyone should. I know who Gebres priest is and I know what church he belongs to, however, he has not been forthcoming about this himself, at least towards me. But I have already been accused of attacking Gebres character, so would it do any good to speak about his church affiliation and wether it is schismatic or not?

It doesnt matter, he has proven himself to be dishonest, especially in light of the consultation of many others over the last few years or so. Despite Kerdy saying it is interpretive, it really isnt, especially when these people he quotes make definitive statements.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Ioannes said:
Well, once again, it is not views. If you quote a father saying he supports your view on pacifism, but the man wrote canons speaking on when war is a necessary evil and even violence, that is not interpretation. When you completely misquote someone, or cherry pick and ignore the entirety of their writings, that is being dishonest, not interpretive.


I also agree that he picks and chooses quotes to suit his needs....but, so does every other person.

We find a quote, a line of scripture, a saying...that fits our purpose and we use it.

Trying to make a point, enter blurb in Google...find accommodating quote, use it.

I could use a quote I find from St. John the Goldenmouth, and use it, without having read any other of his writings....and believe that it supports what I was thinking.

Where does it say that we need to read the entire works of a particular Saint, in order to use one of their quotes?

I will bet most of us have used a quote from a Saint at one time or another, without having read in entirety every word they have written.



 

Kerdy

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LBK said:
Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
Kerdy, I am not sure how one can disagree about misquoting people, church fathers, and making up quotes. It is pretty cut and dry, as evidenced by the OP. He has never once explained why he has misused church fathers, he has never defended it, but avoided it entirely.
In the event you haven't noticed, he is usually non-confrontational unless it’s about abortion and even then it’s limited.
You haven't been on this forum long enough. Quinault's posts on this get to the heart of the matter.
Perhaps, I will have to take your word for it.
 

Kerdy

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Iconodule said:
Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
Kerdy, I am not sure how one can disagree about misquoting people, church fathers, and making up quotes. It is pretty cut and dry, as evidenced by the OP. He has never once explained why he has misused church fathers, he has never defended it, but avoided it entirely.
In the event you haven't noticed, he is usually non-confrontational unless it’s about abortion and even then it’s limited.
See the Obama and Harry Potter thread and get back to us.
I don't Politics and I was involved in the HP thread.
 

Iconodule

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Gebre has kids. One day, they will be grown up, and they will tell him what he needs to hear, better than any of us can do on an internet forum.

As far as the putative topic of this thread, I think most of us agree that pacifism is a noble stance which has a place in the Church, but it is not an absolute prescription.
 

TheTrisagion

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Iconodule said:
As far as the putative topic of this thread, I think most of us agree that pacifism is a noble stance which has a place in the Church, but it is not an absolute prescription.
+1
 

Kerdy

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Ioannes said:
Kerdy said:
LBK said:
Kerdy said:
Ioannes said:
TheTrisagion said:
I was not aware that you were granted the gift of mind reading.  ::)

There was a million ways to more constructively address this issue than this thread, and this is coming from a guy who is intimately acquainted with bad taste as you can see from my parody thread on abortionist whores/horses.
Once again, this issue had been privately discussed for some length of time a few years maybe. I told Gebre that by misusing quotes he is misleading people and therefore being dishonest. It is unacceptable to portray the church taking a position that it does not take. I informed Gebre that this would happen, he continued to interpret it as a personal attack, as he does most all criticism, and then refused to discuss it anymore. I explained to him that I would post this publicly. I gave him the letter and ample time to respond to it. Again, as I said repeatedly, it is not about his pacifist stance and I explained that to him on numerous occasions, it is the simple fact he is being dishonest and misusing other peoples writings, namely the church fathers as can clearly be seen in the OP. He refused to respond privately therefore I posted it publicly so people would not be misled. He has many people on his facebook and I would not want someone outside Orthodoxy to think that it is a requirement that they be pacifist to be Orthodox. Or that the military and all soldiers are evil, which is NOT the position of the church.

Mind reading? Nah, thankfully, which is why I said "likely" and made that assumption based on his inability to address criticism directed towards him. Which is odd for a guy that criticizes nearly everyone who does not agree with him. The simple fact is he has been dishonest, refused to acknowledge this, to me, clergy, and others and seems to take it as a personal attack against his character. It is an assumption based on my many discussions with him.
If I may ask, if he spoke to his priest first and has maintained dialogue with his priest on this matter, would you then no longer take issue with his views and expressions?
The fact that Gebre is cagey about who his priest is raises a red flag with me. If anything, saying "this is what my priest teaches", and allowing people to confirm this lets Gebre off the hook to a great degree.
I understand this, I really do, but I would also be hesitant to provide my priests information to be harassed by someone I hardly know from the internet.  If this is such a great issue, I would think the proper procedure would be to have Ioannes' priest run it up the chain and trust it would be corrected if it needed to be corrected.
That is absolutely correct and I do not think anyone should. I know who Gebres priest is and I know what church he belongs to, however, he has not been forthcoming about this himself, at least towards me. But I have already been accused of attacking Gebres character, so would it do any good to speak about his church affiliation and wether it is schismatic or not?

It doesnt matter, he has proven himself to be dishonest, especially in light of the consultation of many others over the last few years or so. Despite Kerdy saying it is interpretive, it really isnt, especially when these people he quotes make definitive statements.
People have taken quotes from Thomas Jefferson in support of and in opposition to Christianity, in support of and in opposition to separation of Church and State for the sake of the Church, not the State?  It happens all the time.  Look at how people misquote the Holy Scriptures.  If you know his priest, tell yours and let them hash it out if it means that much to you, but doing it here in this manner just isn't working.

Bolded Portion:
No, it wouldn't do any good.  We are all considered schismatic to someone and heretics to the rest.  In fact, this should actually work in his favor, not against him.
 

Ioannes

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LizaSymonenko said:
Ioannes said:
Well, once again, it is not views. If you quote a father saying he supports your view on pacifism, but the man wrote canons speaking on when war is a necessary evil and even violence, that is not interpretation. When you completely misquote someone, or cherry pick and ignore the entirety of their writings, that is being dishonest, not interpretive.


I also agree that he picks and chooses quotes to suit his needs....but, so does every other person.

We find a quote, a line of scripture, a saying...that fits our purpose and we use it.

Trying to make a point, enter blurb in Google...find accommodating quote, use it.

I could use a quote I find from St. John the Goldenmouth, and use it, without having read any other of his writings....and believe that it supports what I was thinking.

Where does it say that we need to read the entire works of a particular Saint, in order to use one of their quotes?

I will bet most of us have used a quote from a Saint at one time or another, without having read in entirety every word they have written.

Liza, that is a good point. We often take church fathers and scripture and apply it to our life and in that instance it certainly can be interpretive and useful for our own good. This is different than using church fathers to pass off your own personal belief as a church teaching. You are then saying that this is what the church teaches and that this snippit is indicative of what that particular saint taught us. So, when you write a book or are teaching, you have to be careful of that, you must be critical of your own self and accept criticism of others. And you must fairly and accurately represent someone and their teachings, at least as best you can. So, the two instances are different because in one you are not telling everyone this is what the church says. For instance in Gebres book is a poem which is very demeaning to soldiers, essentially condemning them of being evil. This is not what the church teaches at all, in a different context it would be acceptable, but in the context of an Orthodox book of wisdom, it really makes the church look bad, as well as all the saints who were soldiers.
 

Ioannes

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Also to quote Gebre "But silence about injustice is contempt for our neighbor, and apathy towards evil is certainly no virtue." So, clearly an injustice was committed by him and by his own teaching, I am justified in pointing this out. (Mystery and Meaning, Gebre Menfes Kidus, p. 141)
 

TheTrisagion

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Ioannes said:
Also to quote Gebre "But silence about injustice is contempt for our neighbor, and apathy towards evil is certainly no virtue." So, clearly an injustice was committed by him and by his own teaching, I am justified in pointing this out. (Mystery and Meaning, Gebre Menfes Kidus, p. 141)
So instead of prooftexting Scripture, we have devolved into prooftexting Gebre?

 

Kerdy

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Just for my own personal knowledge, you didn't think blasting the snot out of him on Amazon for the entire world to see was enough, you decided it was needed to bring in here?  So, global blasting wasn't enough?  I am really trying hard to understand here.
 

Kerdy

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For the record, he also stated:

It is my hope that the words of this book will help cultivate the authentic Christian values of true peace, unconditional love, and respect for all human life. I pray that my words will lead others to the Orthodox Christian Faith and bring glory to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not expect the reader to agree with all of the opinions and views contained within this book, but I hope that they will be challenged, edified, and inspired by its overall message. If everything within these pages is either pleasing to all or offensive to all, then I have failed both as a writer and as a Christian.

What I have written is to myself first and foremost. The ideals I espouse are hardly ideals that I claim to have mastered. It is much easier to write than to live an authentic life of ascetical prayer and true Christian devotion.

So, this book is the humble offering of a spiritual novice. May God forgive my presumption, may He erase my errors of pride, and may He magnify that which is truly from Him.

This author and sinner asks for your prayers.

"Lord have mercy."

Selam,
GEBRE MENFES KIDUS
Bolded portions for emphasis.
 

Ioannes

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Kerdy said:
Just for my own personal knowledge, you didn't think blasting the snot out of him on Amazon for the entire world to see was enough, you decided it was needed to bring in here?  So, global blasting wasn't enough?  I am really trying hard to understand here.
At first it was on facebook, but, yes the book has some erroneous teachings as well, I think it would be fair to let people know that. I have brought those errors within his book to his attention, he has since written a second edition without correcting them. I am confused, are you for error and misrepresentation of the Orthodox Church?
 
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