Against Serafim of Sarov

Ansgar

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Dionysii said:
Ansgar said:
did not the Church Fathers take from the ancient greek philosophers, that which was true and good?
They did not take from them as if they needed to learn truths from them. 
Some Church Fathers did indeed quote specific doctrines which were true in order for their audience to identify with a part of their teaching.

However, I am unfamiliar with any Church Fathers glorifying the memory or either Zoroaster, Lao Tse, Buddha, or Krishna.
The Church Fathers did the opposite of the Nikonian Bishop Nikolai Velimirovich. 
Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed... well, maybe Zoroaster and Buddha to a limited degree. And as Romaios said, these quotes probably shouldn't be read for themselves.
 

Romaios

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Dionysii said:
Romaios said:
Those quotes are totally taken out of context
No. You speak falsely.

The Bishop Velimirovich said "Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."  Did he not?
How is that passage out of context?

This is on the very page you referred to:

Do not slay the prophets sent to you, my soul, for their graves contain not them, but those who slew them.

Wash and cleanse yourself; become tranquil amid the turbulent sea of the world, and keep within yourself the counsels of the prophets sent to you.  Surrender yourself entirely to the One on high and say to the world:  "I have nothing for you."

Even the most righteous of the sons of men, who believe in you, are merely feeble shadows which, like the righteous Joseph, walk in your shadow.  For mortality begets mortality and not life.  Truly I say to you: earthly husbands are mistaken when they say that they give life. They do not give it but ruin it.  They push life into the red sea and drown it, and beforehand they wrap it in darkness and make it a diabolical illusion.  There is no life, O soul, unless it comes from the Holy Spirit.  Nor is there any reality in the world, unless it comes down from heaven.
 

Dionysii

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"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html


"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich


He speaks for himself.
 

Dionysii

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Ansgar said:
Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed...
A bit off topic, but I am finding that the Panarion of Saint Epiphanius of Salamis is rather astute.
 

Ansgar

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Dionysii said:
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html


"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich


He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.
 

Ansgar

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Dionysii said:
Ansgar said:
Most Church Fathers probably didn't even know that they existed...
A bit off topic, but I am finding that the Panarion of Saint Epiphanius of Salamis is rather astute.
Haven't read it yet. Where does it mention Buddha?
 

Dionysii

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Ansgar said:
Dionysii said:
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html

"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.
I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis. 

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3: 
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf
 

Romaios

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Dionysii said:
I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis. 

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3: 
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf
On the Pseudo-Clement you quoted:

[size=10pt]The original author shows a detailed knowledge of the towns on the Phoenician coast from Caesarea to Antioch. He was an Arian, and Arianism had its home in the civil diocese of the Orient. He uses the Praeparatio Evangelica of Eusebius of Caesarea (written about 313). In 325 that historian mentions the dialogues of Peter and Appion as just published — presumably in his own region; these were probably the nucleus of the larger work completed by the same hand a few years later. Citations of Pseudo-Clement are by the Palestinian Epiphanius, who found the romance among the Ebionites of Palestine; by St. Jerome, who had dwelt in the Syrian desert and settled at Bethlehem; by the travelled Rufinus; by the Apostolical Constitutions, compiled in Syria or Palestine. The work is rendered into Syriac before 411. The Arian author of the Opus imperfectum cited it freely. It was interpolated by a Eunomian about 365–70. All these indications suggest an Arian author before 350 in the East, probably not far from Caesarea.

The author, though an Arian, probably belonged nominally to the Catholic Church. He wrote for the heathens of his day, and observed the stiff and often merely formal disciplina arcani which the 4th century enforced. Atonement, grace, sacraments are omitted for this cause only. "The true Prophet" is not a name for Christ used by Christians, but the office of Christ which the author puts forward towards the pagan world. He shows Peter keeping the evening agape and Eucharist secret from Clement when unbaptized; it was no doubt a Eucharist of bread and wine, not of bread and salt.

Source
 

Ansgar

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Dionysii said:
Ansgar said:
Dionysii said:
"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster."
- Saint Clement of Rome (Homily 9, Chapter 4)
http://saintclementofrome.blogspot.com/p/homilies-1-10.html

"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich

He speaks for himself.
What exactly does Nebrod and Zoroaster have to do with each other.
I merely quoted Clement of Rome verbatim in order to show his declaration that Zoroaster was magician against God.

However, I mentioned Saint Epiphanius's Panarion in anticipation of your question about the connection of Zoroaster with "Nebrod" which does sound a lot like the "Nimrod" of Babel mentioned in Genesis.  

Not in any way excusing Zoroaster, Saint Epiphanius clarifies this matter in the Panarion chapter 3, verse 3:  
"The world’s transgressions were spread abroad from there, for Nimrod was the originator of wrong doctrine, astrology and magic—which is what some say of Zoroaster, but in actual fact this was the time of Nimrod the giant; the two, Nimrod and Zoroaster, are far apart in time."
http://www.jacksonsnyder.com/yah/manuscript-library/the%20panarion%20of%20epiphanius%20of%20salamis.pdf
I still do not follow where you are going. Nimrod and Nebrod are two variations of the same name and What Saint Epiphanius seems to be doing is seperating Zoroaster and Nimrod from each other. We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.
 

Asteriktos

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St. Clement of Rome... he was one of the numerous Church Fathers who use the pagan evil wicked dastardly myth of the rising Phoenix, right?  8)
 

Dionysii

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Romaios said:
On the Pseudo-Clement you quoted:

[size=10pt]The original author shows a detailed knowledge of the towns on the Phoenician coast from Caesarea to Antioch. He was an Arian, and Arianism had its home in the civil diocese of the Orient. He uses the Praeparatio Evangelica of Eusebius of Caesarea (written about 313). In 325 that historian mentions the dialogues of Peter and Appion as just published — presumably in his own region; these were probably the nucleus of the larger work completed by the same hand a few years later. Citations of Pseudo-Clement are by the Palestinian Epiphanius, who found the romance among the Ebionites of Palestine; by St. Jerome, who had dwelt in the Syrian desert and settled at Bethlehem; by the travelled Rufinus; by the Apostolical Constitutions, compiled in Syria or Palestine. The work is rendered into Syriac before 411. The Arian author of the Opus imperfectum cited it freely. It was interpolated by a Eunomian about 365–70. All these indications suggest an Arian author before 350 in the East, probably not far from Caesarea.

The author, though an Arian, probably belonged nominally to the Catholic Church. He wrote for the heathens of his day, and observed the stiff and often merely formal disciplina arcani which the 4th century enforced. Atonement, grace, sacraments are omitted for this cause only. "The true Prophet" is not a name for Christ used by Christians, but the office of Christ which the author puts forward towards the pagan world. He shows Peter keeping the evening agape and Eucharist secret from Clement when unbaptized; it was no doubt a Eucharist of bread and wine, not of bread and salt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementine_literature
You assert that the text I quoted was not written by Saint Clement, and you quote a wikipedia article against his authorship.
According to your own quote, Saints Jerome and Epiphanius accepted this work as genuinely written by Saint Clement of Rome.
No disrespect, but I prefer the company of saints to the folks at wikipedia!  :) 
 

Romaios

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Dionysii said:
You assert that the text I quoted was not written by Saint Clement, and you quote a wikipedia article against his authorship.
According to your own quote, Saints Jerome and Epiphanius accepted this work as genuinely written by Saint Clement of Rome.
No disrespect, but I prefer the company of saints to the folks at wikipedia!  :) 
It's not just wikipedia - it's the general scientific consensus that the writings you quoted do not belong to the same St. Clement who wrote the Epistle(s) to the Corinthians. But I guess that wouldn't mean much to you, anyway. They rely on Eusebius of Caesarea and are tainted by Arianism.

The Epistle of Judas quotes Enoch. Do you propose we should invest that apocryphon with Scriptural authority as well?
 

Dionysii

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Ansgar said:
We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.
We took a brief detour into relevant patristic literature.  
I think the side conversation about Nikolai Velimirovich has been directly relevant because the essence of the opening post about Seraphim of Sarov concerns the legitimacy of Nikonian saints - a category to which Bishop Nikolai belongs according to many Nikonian denominations.  Matthewites are the only Nikonian synod that currently come to mind of which I am certain would not consider him a saint.    
 

Dionysii

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Romaios said:
It's not just wikipedia - it's the general scientific consensus ...
Yeah...we definitely have a different way of evaluating what constitutes truth.

If you can show that it's not then I'll give you due credit. 
I have not investigated it deeply, but the fact that your own source says that Saints Jerome and Saints Epiphanius believed it was genuine is the factor that buried the subject in my book.  I haave other things to do in life.  That issue will have to be explained for starters if I was ever to consider otherwise. 
 

Romaios

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Dionysii said:
I have not investigated it deeply, but the fact that your own source says that Saints Jerome and Saints Epiphanius believed it was genuine is the factor that buried the subject in my book. 
It doesn't say as much - St. Epiphanius quotes/alludes to the Pseudo-Clementina, but it's not clear whether he credits St. Clement for them. He doesn't mention him in the excerpt you brought up about Nimrod/Nebrod.  
 
 

Ansgar

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Dionysii said:
Ansgar said:
We are moving further and further away from the original topic of this thread.
We took a brief detour into relevant patristic literature.  
I think the side conversation about Nikolai Velimirovich has been directly relevant because the essence of the opening post about Seraphim of Sarov concerns the legitimacy of Nikonian saints - a category to which Bishop Nikolai belongs according to many Nikonian denominations.  Matthewites are the only Nikonian synod that currently come to mind of which I am certain would not consider him a saint.    
Our saints are no less legitimate than yours.
 

Ebor

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Dionysii said:
Ebor said:
The account in the book is not "facts".  It is "A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco" from the Old Believers.
Are you indicating an actual book or essay by that name?
The link that you posted was to the Google Books preview of 'The Human Tradition in Modern Russia' edited by William B. Husband.  This is a text book published by Rowman and Littlefield
https://rowman.com/ISBN/9780842028561 and is described thusly:

" By integrating the human dimension into Russian history, this lively textbook introduces Russian social history since 1861 to readers in provocative and interesting new ways. The essays in this unique collection are based largely on previously classified Russian archival information available only since 1991. Bringing in the perspectives of individuals and groups usually overlooked, the authors give the reader a grassroots view of modern Russia. The Human Tradition in Modern Russia is an ideal for courses on Russian history and civilization and modern European history."
 
Here is the first part of the Table of Contents:

"Chapter 1 Introduction: The Persistence of Memory in Modern Russia
Part 2 I. Reform, Modernization, and Imperial Society
Chapter 3 Krylov vs. Krylova: 'Sexual Incapacity' and Divorce in Tsarist Russia
Chapter 4 Old Believers in Imperial Russia: A Legend on the Appearance of Tobacco"

Bold has been added for emphasis.  That is the chapter, which you cited, that has the passage about St. Serafim of Sarov and that his death was said by Old Believers according to the text to have been due to smoke/tobacco.  The text plainly states that it was Old Believers who reported that various people in the ROC were smokers and that their deaths were due to tobacco. 

Such reports by persons who were not close to St. Serefim are dubious, to say the least, without some form of support.  The point of the essay as shown in the title and in reading the pages around your chosen passage is to give information on one group's views on tobacco and how these could be used against another group with whom they had a history of deep disagreement and enmity, to say the least.

So the material that you provided is not about "facts" on the passing of St. Serefim of Sarov but about what a rival religious group SAID/WROTE about him.  Their story/rumour/ etc.

There's a difference.
 

Iconodule

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I have several reliable sources indicating that the priest Avvakum was a big stoner and died listening to Phish.
 

Keble

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Dionysii said:
"Glorious be the memory of Zoroaster."
- Nikolai Velimirovich
Does he even speak it at all? It should surprise nobody to learn that searching for this phrase produces nothing but blogs. Looking for "Zoroaster" produces a sentence from Velimirovic's The Agony of the Church which is not at all congruent with this supposed quote; unfortunately I cannot get further than that because I cannot see enough of the text online to be sure of the full context, but given the severe disparity and the lack of any other book hits I have to assume that this is a slander passed around uncritically as is typical of the internet, where it is quite easy to check up on so extreme a statement.

Come up with a full book citation, in English; until then, keep your rumor-mongering to yourself.
 
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