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Ancestral sin

Tzimis

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What is the meaning of ansesreral sin in the OO tradition? Is lt the consequence of the sin or does human nature also have sin in its members?  Looking forward to a fruitful discussion.
 

Volnutt

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Is misspelling it exactly the same way three times evidence of ignorance or aphasia lol?...
 

Tzimis

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Volnutt said:
Is misspelling it exactly the same way three times evidence of ignorance or aphasia lol?...
Why don't you go recite the sinners prayer.
 

Volnutt

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Is misspelling it exactly the same way three times evidence of ignorance or aphasia lol?...
Why don't you go recite the sinners prayer.
Ooooo, sick burn. ::)
 

Tzimis

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Is misspelling it exactly the same way three times evidence of ignorance or aphasia lol?...
Why don't you go recite the sinners prayer.
Ooooo, sick burn. ::)
Dont temp me. I can become very unchristian like.
 

Volnutt

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Is misspelling it exactly the same way three times evidence of ignorance or aphasia lol?...
Why don't you go recite the sinners prayer.
Ooooo, sick burn. ::)
Dont temp me. I can become very unchristian like.
Hard to get less Christian than accusing an entire Church of heresy based on your crappy reading of the words of a single priest.
 

Tzimis

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Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Is misspelling it exactly the same way three times evidence of ignorance or aphasia lol?...
Why don't you go recite the sinners prayer.
Ooooo, sick burn. ::)
Dont temp me. I can become very unchristian like.
Hard to get less Christian than accusing an entire Church of heresy based on your crappy reading of the words of a single priest.
Lets see how it plays out.
 

Volnutt

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Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Tzimis said:
Volnutt said:
Is misspelling it exactly the same way three times evidence of ignorance or aphasia lol?...
Why don't you go recite the sinners prayer.
Ooooo, sick burn. ::)
Dont temp me. I can become very unchristian like.
Hard to get less Christian than accusing an entire Church of heresy based on your crappy reading of the words of a single priest.
Lets see how it plays out. I spend 5+ pages distorting the words of every response I get to confirm my preconceived notions, as usual.
FIFY.
 

Volnutt

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Father Peter said:
We are born mortal and corruptible, but not sinful and corrupted.
So, Paul's "law of death in my members" is basically just our frailty and capacity to Fall? Do you believe in an equivalent to Maximos's idea of the Gnomic will?
 

peterfarrington

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We do not believe that sin is a substance or that it is transmitted as a contamination, but it is the turning of the will away from God. Our corruption is found in the mortality to which we are subject after the loss of the Holy Spirit by Adam.

If you mean that the will of man is left without stability after the loss of the Holy Spirit and turns this way and that in an unsettled and uncontrolled manner until the Holy Spirit brings about the reintegration of the will in the divine life, then yes indeed. It is not a different will but a description of the will acting without grace.
 

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What are your thoughts on the Council of Carthage 419?

This Council has the following canon (Canon 110):

"Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother's wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema.

For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, By one man sin has come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned, than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith (regulam fidei) even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration."


I ask this because the Bishops of Carthage sent letters to both Saint Cyril asking for the canons of the Council of Nicaea, and Saint Cyril responded wishing them all the best, to which it seems that, in response, Saint Augustine sent Saint Cyril a copy of his work "de Gestis Pelagii" or "On the Proceedings of Pelagius."

After this council, there was no controversy in Alexandria about the Council, despite it being known;

And further than that, the Council of Ephesus condemns multiple times "the doctrines of Celestius" and orders a defrocking of anybody who adheres to such doctrines - the same Celestius who was condemned by the Council of Carthage for Pelagian heresy.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2013/09/05/original-sin-and-ephesus-carthages-influence-on-the-east/
 

peterfarrington

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People didn't always go looking for trouble. Ignoring things was often the best way of dealing with things. But St Cyril absolutely did not support the idea of Original Sin. It is a mistake to treat canons produced here there and everywhere as if they were treated as universal and authoritative.

The Eastern Fathers absolutely rejected the idea that a new born infant was sinful, and especially the error of Augustine that such an infant must go to Hell. Indeed the Eastern Fathers teach that a small child cannot sin, and also that no one can be held guilty of another's sin. St Cyril teaches this.

Rejecting the views of Carthage, which the Church has usually always done in various cases, is not the same as accepting Pelagianism. But when Augustine tried to have St John Cassian condemned he was trying to condemn the Eastern soteriology, and he was in error.
 

Volnutt

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St. Gregory of Nazianzus teaches that infants have sin though, doesn't he?

Why does Oriental Orthodoxy baptize them if they have no sin to be cleansed?
 

peterfarrington

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None of the Eastern Fathers teach Original Sin.

We don't baptise infants because of sin. Here is something I wrote for some of my own people...

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/infant-baptism/


 

peterfarrington

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Even more than the remission of sins, since God always waits to forgive, baptism is new life, a new birth, the creation of a new man in union with God. And this is what is needed for all, including infants who have not sinned, but who are born mortal and separated from God, and need to be reborn and united with the divine life.
 

peterfarrington

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Certainly we bear the consequences of Adam's sin, which is the corruption of natural mortality, and the separation from God, and the loss of the indwelling Holy Spirit. But we are not born guilty of sin, or infected by sin, and we already have enough problems without making up ones that do not exist.
 

Volnutt

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Father Peter said:
None of the Eastern Fathers teach Original Sin.
I'm curious how you'd parse these quotes, then (or at least the Pre-Schism ones):

knish said:
There's a semi-pelagian strain in contemporary American Orthodoxy. You don't find it in traditional Orthodox countries, but it's prevalent in the US due to the likes of Meyendorff, Schmemann and Romanides.

Our understanding of original sin is not all that different from Roman Catholicism. The death is obviously two-fold. Here are some quotes from Church fathers. You'll notice, however, there is a distinction between our teaching and that of the roman church.

                    St. Athanasius the Great: “When Adam had transgressed, his sin reached unto all men.”[8]

(ii)              St. Ephraim the Syrian: “Adam sowed sinful impurity into pure bodies and the yeast of evil was laid into the whole of our mass.”[9]

(iii)            St. Gregory of Nyssa: “Evil was mixed with our nature from the beginning… through those who by their disobedience introduced the disease. Just as in the natural propagation of the species each animal engenders its like, so man is born from man, a being subject to passions from a being subject to passions, a sinner from a sinner. Thus sin takes its rise in us as we are born; it grows with us and keeps us company till life’s term.”[10]

(iv)            St. Anastasius of Sinai: “In Adam we became co-inheritors of the curse, not as if we disobeyed that divine commandment with him but because he became mortal and transmitted sin through his seed. We became mortals from a mortal…”

(v)              St. Symeon the New Theologian:“That saying that calls no one sinless except God, even though he has lived only one day on earth [Job 14.14], does not refer to those who sin personally. For how can a one-day child sin? But in this is expressed that mystery of our Faith, that human nature is sinful from its very conception. God did not create man sinful, but pure and holy. But since the first-created Adam lost this garment of sanctity, not from any other sin than pride alone, and became corruptible and mortal, all people also who came from the seed of Adam are participants of the ancestral sin from their very conception and birth. He who has been born in this way, even though he has not yet performed any sin, is already sinful through this ancestral sin.”[11]

(vi)            St. Gregory Palamas: “Before Christ we all shared the same ancestral curse and condemnation poured out on all of us from our single Forefather, as if it had sprung from the root of the human race and was the common lot of our nature. Each person’s individual action attracted either reproof or praise from God, but no one could do anything about the shared curse and condemnation, or the evil inheritance that had been passed down to him and through him would pass to his descendants.”[12]

(vii)          Nicholas Cabasilas: “Because our nature was extended and our race increased as it proceeded from the first body, so wickedness too, like any other natural characteristic, was transmitted to the bodies which proceeded from that body. The body, then, not merely shares in the experiences of the soul but also imparts its own experiences to the soul. The soul is subject to joy or vexation, is restrained or unrestrained, depending on the disposition of the body. It therefore followed that each man’s soul inherited the wickedness of the first Adam. It spread from his soul to his body, and from his body to the bodies which derived from his, and from those bodies to the souls.”[13]
Regarding unbaptized infants, the eastern fathers don't really speak on this. St Gregory of Nyssa is the only one who comes to mind and he basically says they go to a limbo-like state because they've neither done anything to merit heaven nor hell.

Pop Ameridoxy has skewed a lot of Orthodox teaching.
Father Peter said:
We don't baptise infants because of sin. Here is something I wrote for some of my own people...

http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/infant-baptism/
Thanks. I'll take a look at that. Your explanation in the other post makes sense to me.
 

Tzimis

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Are you aware fr Peter that from an EO perspective your comments are heretical. How would death be past along if its not In our nature? Death is a result of sin. They both go hand in hand.

What I gather from reading your work is that grace is the sustaining element and that man would die without it. Naturally.
The problem I see with that is A&E was said to not have grace yet. Theosis is something that was achieved by Christ. Adam and Eve were in communion with god on the path to grace before the fall.
 

Volnutt

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But our very existence is a form of grace. God alone is self-existent ("a necessary being" in philosophy-ese) and "in Him we live and move and have our being." He called us forth from nothing and without Him, that's what we'd return to.
 

peterfarrington

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Tzimis, I know the EO position well. It is the same as that which I have described. You have a history of presenting your own views as being EOxy when even EO dispute it.

Our natural mortality is the result of sin, Adam's sin, but it is not sinful. It is the natural condition of all createdness. Adam and Eve were given the gift of the Holy Spirit which preserved them in immortality but when they lost the Holy Spirit they were left in their natural condition of mortality.

The Holy Spirit was breathed into Adam and Eve and they became truly alive to God, not just alive in an animal sense. 
 

peterfarrington

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When Adam sinned the consequences of his transgression certainly affected us all. If you read all of On the Incarnation it is fairly clear that our problem is death and separation from God. The forgiveness of God was not enough, and was not withheld, but man had already entirely changed the cosmos in his sin, and something much more was required which was beyond man.
 

peterfarrington

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In Adam we became co-inheritors of the curse, not as if we disobeyed that divine commandment with him but because he became mortal and transmitted sin through his seed. We became mortals from a mortal…”

Yes, indeed, we share the doom of mortality and natural corruption and separation from God and we become mortal from a mortal. The consequences of his sin affect us all and we are born mortal. "because he became mortal and transmitted the consequences of his sin"
 

peterfarrington

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St Severus is the equivalent of Maximos the Confessor in the OO tradition. He wrote 4 books against the heresy of the aphthartodocetists which Julian of Halicarnassus taught and which Justinian adopted at the end of his life. He is a strict disciple of St Cyril of Alexandria. Here are a few quotes from one of his works..

"So, Job speaks of the defilement that resides in the sins of actions and thoughts that also come to judgment and he does not show, as those who are Manichaeans think, that this defilement is mixed naturally with the generation of man! "


"It thus follows from all this that the sin of those who have engendered us, understanding the sin of Adam and Eve, is not naturally mixed with our substance, as the unhealthy and impious opinion of the Messalians, or those otherwise known as Manicheans; but it is because they had lost the grace of immortality, because of sin and transgression, so that the terms of condemnation and the sentence have spread to us, seeing that as a natural disposition, we are born mortal as we are born of mortal parents, and not born sinners while we are born of parents who are sinners. It is because sin is not a reality and it does not pass naturally, by procreation, from parents to their children. And if it were not so, no one could, while being the son of a sinful father, become righteous by the best practice of asceticism, for the properties of nature are immutable. In reality, we see many righteous sons come from sinful fathers, such as the godly Hezekiah son of the wicked Ahaz, and others who resembled them, born of mortal parents all of whose sons are born mortal; for the mortal character belongs to nature."

"But because sin was for the impious of our race the occasion of losing the grace of immortality and hearing the word of condemnation: "You are dust and you will return to dust" and "Cursed is the earth, object of your works", for this reason we say that we have become subject to sin and curse, by the fact that we inherit the mortal character of nature, which Christ, the second Adam, destroyed, becoming for us, the first fruits of our resurrection, whose divine baptism we receive, the guarantee that we are no longer sinners, those the offspring of a sinful father, Adam, but mortal, as the offspring of a mortal father!"

"What is this question then, when it says that by the disobedience of a single one many have become sinners? In fact, because this sinner has become mortal, those who descend from him also become mortal, this does not depart from what is reasonable. But that by the disobedience of that one, another becomes a sinner, what is normal to that! For whoever is in this situation would not be liable to judgment if he is not, on his own, a sinner. What does the word 'sinners' mean here? This seems to me to be those who are guilty and subject to death expressed in the sentence. He has shown clearly and by many considerations that we have all become mortal because Adam is dead!"

"This is confirmed by what we quote from Cyril, who, in the Solution of Questions concerning the Dogma addressed to the monks, writes this: [Cyril] "We must inquire how Adam, our first father, transmitted to us the condemnation which weighed on him because of the transgression. He had heard: 'You are dust and you will return to dust and he became corruptible as he had been incorruptible, and he was subject to the bonds of death. Since it is after falling there that he procreated sons born of him as a corruptible father, we are born corruptible. It is in this sense that we are heirs to the curse that weighed on Adam. Indeed, it was not in any way for disobeying with him the divine command that he had received that we were condemned, but because, as I said, became mortal, he transmitted to the seed from him the curse: we are indeed born mortals of a mortal!"

I have lots more in a similar vein, but it is all based on the Fathers on which St Severus relied, and especially St Cyril, and he is the pinnacle himself of our theological thought.
 

peterfarrington

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Again from St Cyril quoted by St Severus...

"In the Solutions concerning the Dogma that he composed in the form of a rule in answer to the questions of a certain Deacon Tiberius and addressed to his companions, he defined, by gathering all at once, and declared that, As a result of the transgression, Adam did not lose a single natural good, nor our race by him. Now the statement of the Rule is as follows: [Cyril] "For we have lost nothing of what we have by nature."

This is not said as if making an argument, but to illustrate the OO position, which is the same the as mainstream EO position.
 

peterfarrington

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The idea that Adam and Eve were without grace, indeed were without the indwelling Holy Spirit, is not Orthodox at all. I am not sure where anyone in the EO would get that from.

"The eminent Cyril also shows in the first book of the exposition of the Commentary of the Gospel of John: [Cyril] "Man is therefore a reasonable animal, but composed, meaning of a soul and of this earthly and temporal flesh. Because it had been made by God and he had come into being, without possessing of his own nature incorruptibility nor indestructibility, - these indeed belong by nature to God alone, - he had been marked by the spirit of life, enriched, by an intimate relationship with God, a good that goes beyond nature; because 'he breathed the breath of life in his face and man became a living soul'. But because he had been guilty of the transgression of the precept, he rightly heard: 'You are dust and you will return to dust' ". He was stripped of grace and the breath of life left the earthly flesh, meaning the Spirit of him who said, I am life. And the living being fell into death, according to the flesh alone, while the soul remained in immortality, because it was only flesh that was said: 'You are dust and you will return to dust'."
 

Volnutt

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Father Peter said:
"But because sin was for the impious of our race the occasion of losing the grace of immortality and hearing the word of condemnation: "You are dust and you will return to dust" and "Cursed is the earth, object of your works", for this reason we say that we have become subject to sin and curse, by the fact that we inherit the mortal character of nature, which Christ, the second Adam, destroyed, becoming for us, the first fruits of our resurrection, whose divine baptism we receive, the guarantee that we are no longer sinners, those the offspring of a sinful father, Adam, but mortal, as the offspring of a mortal father!"

"What is this question then, when it says that by the disobedience of a single one many have become sinners? In fact, because this sinner has become mortal, those who descend from him also become mortal, this does not depart from what is reasonable. But that by the disobedience of that one, another becomes a sinner, what is normal to that! For whoever is in this situation would not be liable to judgment if he is not, on his own, a sinner. What does the word 'sinners' mean here? This seems to me to be those who are guilty and subject to death expressed in the sentence. He has shown clearly and by many considerations that we have all become mortal because Adam is dead!"
"This is confirmed by what we quote from Cyril, who, in the Solution of Questions concerning the Dogma addressed to the monks, writes this: [Cyril]
"We must inquire how Adam, our first father, transmitted to us the condemnation which weighed on him because of the transgression. He had heard: 'You are dust and you will return to dust and he became corruptible as he had been incorruptible, and he was subject to the bonds of death. Since it is after falling there that he procreated sons born of him as a corruptible father, we are born corruptible. It is in this sense that we are heirs to the curse that weighed on Adam. Indeed, it was not in any way for disobeying with him the divine command that he had received that we were condemned, but because, as I said, became mortal, he transmitted to the seed from him the curse: we are indeed born mortals of a mortal!"
So, "sinner" (in the Romans 5 sense) = "mortal" for Severus? Doesn't this imply that both Christ and the Theotokos are sinners (in that sense of the word)?

I'm also having a hard time following Severus's logic here:

whose divine baptism we receive, the guarantee that we are no longer sinners, those the offspring of a sinful father, Adam, but mortal, as the offspring of a mortal father!"
It seems like he kind of changes his definition of "sinner" here to mean something other than just "mortal."
 

peterfarrington

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I think that there are two aspects that we keep in mind...

We have the state of mortality and seperated-ness from God which are the consequence of Adam's sin, and this is what the Fathers (I mean especially St Cyril and St Severus) mean by sin, and that the Word has become sin for us.

But we also have the personal practice of sin, of an act of the will that is a turning away from God, that has a personal consequence in our relationship with God.

So there is a relationship problem, and there is a natural corruption in mortality problem.

One is caused by Adam and experienced by us, and the other is caused by us. Both need fixing.

I think the latter reference means that in baptism we are no longer sinful (personally liable for our own sins) though the offspring of a personally sinful and liable father, but we remain mortal and the offspring of a mortal father.

I would say that we believe that an infant is not sinful, liable for judgement because of personal sins (and many of the fathers speak of an age of becoming responsible for sin, as 5 or 6 or even 10 years old) but is subject to the consequences of Adam's sin and so is subject to mortality, to separation from God, and this is called sin, as Christ is said to have become sin for us. An infant has lots of reasons to need baptism. It is life for them.

But we also begin to sin and to become personally sinful, but we don't want to understand that in penal terms, but in relational terms. Each sin leads us further away from union with God. This also needs dealing with in baptism, and then throughout the experience of the spiritual life. But sin is not our main problem. God has always been ready to forgive and always pours out his love and grace. The problem has always been death, and the falling of mankind under the power of a natural corruption, and the inability of man to ever find a fixed-ness on God, a moral compass, without God.
 
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Is it safe to say that the condemnation that St. Paul speaks of in Romans 1 & 3 applies to humanity while what he says in Romans 2 is that there are still individuals that God knows are virtuous & will judge according to how their conscience either followed or rebelled against His will for us to be saved?
 

peterfarrington

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My own view is that God calls all people to union with himself and he will have mercy as he chooses and as, to whatever extent he wills and knows, each soul responds to him.

There is an important sense in the Fathers that all of mankind has been affected by the incarnation and the resurrection from death.
 
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Father Peter said:
My own view is that God calls all people to union with himself and he will have mercy as he chooses and as, to whatever extent he wills and knows, each soul responds to him.

There is an important sense in the Fathers that all of mankind has been affected by the incarnation and the resurrection from death.
Thank you.
 

peterfarrington

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I have some sense that the great division in the world is not between those who are in the Church and those who are not, but between those responding to God in all places and those who do not respond. I know that I began to respond to God in his mercy when I was an infant and 30 years before I became formally Orthodox. It is one journey of life towards God.
 

Tzimis

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Father Peter said:
Tzimis, I know the EO position well. It is the same as that which I have described. You have a history of presenting your own views as being EOxy when even EO dispute it.

Our natural mortality is the result of sin, Adam's sin, but it is not sinful. It is the natural condition of all createdness. Adam and Eve were given the gift of the Holy Spirit which preserved them in immortality but when they lost the Holy Spirit they were left in their natural condition of mortality.

The Holy Spirit was breathed into Adam and Eve and they became truly alive to God, not just alive in an animal sense.
I think you are overly relying on text from one father Severus who we consider heretical. Most other fathers were unanimous in the view that sin and death was passed down through generation.  As a disease, otherwise people wouldn't die.  If actual sin is what causes death as the bible so clearly states. There are two types of sin. Personal and universal. 

    Origen's (185-254 A.D.) view of baptism is direct and transparent:

    "For what is sin? Could a child who has only just been born commit a sin? And yet he has sin for which it is commanded to offer a sacrifice, as Job 14:4ff and Psalm 51:5-7 show. For this reason the Church received from the Apostles the tradition to administer baptism to the children also. For the men to whom the secrets of divine mysteries had been entrusted knew that in everyone there were genuine sinful defilements, which had to be washed away with water and the Spirit."

In his Homily on Luke he again states his beliefs on infant baptism:

"Infants are baptized for the remission of sins. What sins? Whenever have they sinned? In fact, of course, never. And yet: 'No one is free from defilement.' (Job 14:4) But defilement is only put away by the mystery of baptism. That is the reason why infants too are baptized. "
 

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You consider St Severus heretical because your Church does so, and then go on to cite Origen as an authority.
 

Tzimis

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I respect your religion and you, believe it or not. I"m honestly looking at the depths of it to see if its compatible with what I was taught. All this brings up new questions.  Like what is salvation in your church. Also is theosis a doctrine and how it fits into your theology. 
 

Tzimis

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This text is from your own baptismal service. How is it accounted for that you don't believe in AS when your very own prayers explicitly states it.
http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/1_baptism.htm

The priest wishes that the baptized child resembles the image of Lord Christ in righteousness and truth, loving virtue and holiness and hating vice and evil.



The hymn of the Trisagion is recited then the priest prays the Prayer of the Gospel, and a deacon reads the Psalm 31:1,2,  �Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered...�

By Baptism we get remission of original and actual sins and God forgets them, so we become as pure as Adam before the fall.

Then the Gospel : Luke 2:21-35.  Where the circumcision of Jesus is narrated, it is exchanged by Baptism in the New Testament, as Baptism is a spiritual circumcision, as our teacher St. Paul says: �In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in Baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead� (Colossians 2:11,12). In Baptism the old nature is completely removed, not only a small part of the body as in the Old Testament circumcision.  As man is born with the old nature contaminated by Adam�s sin.  Also the purification rite is mentioned, which was done for the woman after forty days of her delivery, and which was accomplished by the Lord Jesus and His Mother the Virgin, despite that He does not need such purification as He is the Holiest of Holies, and was born of the Virgin St. Mary by the Holy Spirit, unlike all humankind.  He instituted the law and accurately accomplished the law.
 

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I think Ancestral Curse is where you hereditary inherit the problem of sin.
 

Tzimis

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And again here.

St. Cyril the Great resembled the Baptismal water at the moment of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, to a bowl with water which is placed on the fire so it gains heat. Likewise, the Baptismal water gains the power and reflection of the Holy Spirit, to be born of God and the Church as spiritual children.

St. John the Baptist says, �He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire� (Matthew 3:11).  Sanctification of the water is accomplished through the prayer of the gathered church (priest, deacons, congregation), the reading of the Word of God, the signs of the Cross, and finally by the pouring of the Myron into the Baptismal water so that the Holy Spirit dwells on the water grants the baptized person a new nature.  �The earth was without form and void, and darkness was on the face of the deep.  And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters, so God created all the creatures, the light, the ferment the earth, the seas, sun, moon, grass herbs, trees, animals, birds and concluded by creating man on His image and likeness.  Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good� (Genesis 1).

In Baptism, man is void of any virtue, and his soul is empty because of the original sin,
so the Spirit of God hovers over the Baptismal font in the likeness of God in righteousness and holiness of truth; just as the first creation was from water and spirit, so also the new creation is from water and spirit, the Baptismal water upon which dwells, the Holy Spirit
 

peterfarrington

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The OP asks for the views of the OO. These have been given.

If you now wish to tell us all why we are wrong and you are right, and impose your own eclectic EOxy, then that is something else.
 
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