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Ancient Irish musical history found in modern India

Irish45

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People have argued a connection between the ancient Irish church and the Coptic Church.  I feel there are real connections between the two  This article links Kerala to Ireland around 2000 years ago.  I don't know much about Indian Orthodoxy, but I do know it was big in Kerala.  I wonder if the two ancient Churches had any connection. 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/05/160513100848.htm
 

rakovsky

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Irish:
These are two very different connections.
The Irish - India connection is Indo-European. Sanskrit is the ancient Indian written language of the Hindus and North India especially, and is Indo-European. There is a common religious exchange as well as language and culture. That's where you get the Irish horn instrument from.

The Ethiopia - South India relationship would have to be very different. In traditional scholarship in modern times, that relationship is considered both pre-Aryan/pre-Indo-European and also could be connected via ongoing cultural and commercial exchanges via the Indian Ocean.

For more information on this, see the BBC documentary STORY OF INDIA that talks about these two waves going into India, the first one from Africa and the second one from the Indo Europeans.

The Coptic Church connection is very unrelateed to either of those, is indirect, and came very much later.
 

Mor Ephrem

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I don't know anything about Indo-Irish connections, but while we wait for something to be fabricated, enjoy:

https://youtu.be/WKG1fN9JdUE?t=2m
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYE1pgS4w0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81C-O5FNg7Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76mzQeM6v0g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye540-pfRLI
 

Jetavan

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rakovsky said:
Irish:
These are two very different connections.
The Irish - India connection is Indo-European.
There might also be connections that are pre-Indo-European.

The so-called "Pashupati seal"--an image engraved in stone, from the Indus Valley civilization (in what is now Pakistan), dating to around 2000 BCE--depicts a clothed male figure, with horns on his head, sitting in a cross-legged posture, surrounded by four animals. Most scholars believe that the Indus Valley civilization was not Indo-European.

The Gundestrup cauldron, found in Denmark, dating to around 100 BCE, also depicts a clothed male figure, with deer antlers on his head, sitting in cross-legged posture, surrounded by four animals.

The two artifacts indicate that there may have been set of shared, or mutually exchanged, symbolic imagery connecting various European and Asian cultures, and that some of this imagery was pre-Indo-European.
 

rakovsky

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Jetavan said:
rakovsky said:
Irish:
These are two very different connections.
The Irish - India connection is Indo-European.
There might also be connections that are pre-Indo-European.
The evidence you gave does not show this.

The Danish in 100 BC were Indo-European.
The Indus Valley in 2000 BC may or may not have had an Indo-European contingent. We need DNA tests from the period to find out.

Indus Valley could have had an Indus Pashupati seal in 2000 BC and had an Indo-European contingent that passed it to other Indo Europeans.

Since the Danes were Indo-European and the evidence of connection you are showing is post-Indo-European (after the Aryan invasion of India of 2000 BC to 1500 BC) in 100 BC, the connection you are giving is not necessarily a pre-IndoEuropean one.

To prove pre-Indo-Euro connection, we would need the Danish seal to be made from before the Indo-European period of North India.



There is some overlap between Indo-European cultures and Indus Valley culture, and this has led to a theory that there was an Aryan contingent in the Indus Valley culture (like many Hindus claim).
 

rakovsky

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Hinduism has a mix of both Indo-European and pre-Aryan culture and religion.
"Veda" is an Indo-European rooted word meaning knowledge. The "Vedas" are the fundamental writings in Hinduism.
 

Jetavan

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rakovsky said:
Jetavan said:
rakovsky said:
Irish:
These are two very different connections.
The Irish - India connection is Indo-European.
There might also be connections that are pre-Indo-European.
The evidence you gave does not show this.

The Danish in 100 BC were Indo-European.
The Indus Valley in 2000 BC may or may not have had an Indo-European contingent. We need DNA tests from the period to find out.

Indus Valley could have had an Indus Pashupati seal in 2000 BC and had an Indo-European contingent that passed it to other Indo Europeans.

Since the Danes were Indo-European and the evidence of connection you are showing is post-Indo-European (after the Aryan invasion of India of 2000 BC to 1500 BC) in 100 BC, the connection you are giving is not necessarily a pre-IndoEuropean one.

To prove pre-Indo-Euro connection, we would need the Danish seal to be made from before the Indo-European period of North India.
I agree that the artifacts don't definitively show or conclusively prove that there was a pre-Indo-European cultural complex that stretched from Europe to India. However, if the 2000-BCE Indus Valley was non-Indo-European (a common perspective these days), and if certain symbols found within that culture have a strong similarity to symbols found within the Indo-European cultures in 100-BCE Europe (suggesting a movement from India to Europe), then that suggests (but doesn't prove) the possibility of a movement of similar non-Indo-European symbols from India into Europe even before the appearance of Indo-Europeans in Europe.
 

rakovsky

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Jetavan said:
rakovsky said:
The evidence you gave does not show this.

The Danish in 100 BC were Indo-European.
The Indus Valley in 2000 BC may or may not have had an Indo-European contingent. We need DNA tests from the period to find out.

Indus Valley could have had an Indus Pashupati seal in 2000 BC and had an Indo-European contingent that passed it to other Indo Europeans.

Since the Danes were Indo-European and the evidence of connection you are showing is post-Indo-European (after the Aryan invasion of India of 2000 BC to 1500 BC) in 100 BC, the connection you are giving is not necessarily a pre-IndoEuropean one.

To prove pre-Indo-Euro connection, we would need the Danish seal to be made from before the Indo-European period of North India.
I agree that the artifacts don't definitively show or conclusively prove that there was a pre-Indo-European cultural complex that stretched from Europe to India. However, if the 2000-BCE Indus Valley was non-Indo-European (a common perspective these days), and if certain symbols found within that culture have a strong similarity to symbols found within the Indo-European cultures in 100-BCE Europe (suggesting a movement from India to Europe), then that suggests (but doesn't prove) the possibility of a movement of similar non-Indo-European symbols from India into Europe even before the appearance of Indo-Europeans in Europe.
If the symbols are shown first in Europe in the hands of Indo-Europeans, then this does not suggest that the symbols arrived in Europe before the appearance of Indo-Europeans in Europe.

If creamsicles are made in New York City and I arrive in Kansas City holding New York creamsicles, it doesn't suggest that the creamsicles arrived in Kansas City before I did.

We simply don't know based on the fact of shared artwork alone when and from where did the artwork originate and when it arrived and who carried it first.

We are dealing with a variety of interesting, sometimes contradictory theories. One of the problems is we don't even know for sure whether the Indus Civilization of 3100-1500 BC was Aryan, Indo-European-influenced, or what. The normal scholarly opinion seems to be that some In.Euros were there too, but that it was basically a Dravidian language culture, like Malankaran is IIRC.
 

Irish45

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I didn't express myself well in the OP.  I realize that the Coptic unrelated and from about 400 years later than this horn.  I brought attention to it because it's adds credibility to the idea of the Coptic Church influencing the Irish Church.  How?  It proves that cultural exchanges are possible, even at great distances.  I realize that India and Europe partially share a common prehistoric culture.  That is probably where the connection is from, but because the connection was made via Kerala, I thought it was worth posing the question.  The Oriental Orthodox section of these forums has (in my opinion) some of the best Christian minds on the internet.  I  was curious as to where the discussion would go.  Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. 


As for the Coptic connection, I thought this was pretty cool.

http://aleteia.org/2016/11/30/irish-worker-discovers-ancient-manuscript-that-links-irish-church-to-egypt/


rakovsky said:
Irish:
These are two very different connections.
The Irish - India connection is Indo-European. Sanskrit is the ancient Indian written language of the Hindus and North India especially, and is Indo-European. There is a common religious exchange as well as language and culture. That's where you get the Irish horn instrument from.

The Ethiopia - South India relationship would have to be very different. In traditional scholarship in modern times, that relationship is considered both pre-Aryan/pre-Indo-European and also could be connected via ongoing cultural and commercial exchanges via the Indian Ocean.

For more information on this, see the BBC documentary STORY OF INDIA that talks about these two waves going into India, the first one from Africa and the second one from the Indo Europeans.

The Coptic Church connection is very unrelateed to either of those, is indirect, and came very much later.
 

rakovsky

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Irish45 said:
I brought attention to it because it's adds credibility to the idea of the Coptic Church influencing the Irish Church.  How?  It proves that cultural exchanges are possible, even at great distances. 
THe article you pointed to says that the connection is the fact that the artifact from 800 AD has papyrus, and papyrus is grown in Egypt.
But...
not just Egypt, but other places like Syria and Sicily.
So this doesn't show much connection between Ireland and the Coptic Church at all.


It shows that the Irish book was made in 800 AD from Papyrus, a substance that could be from Egypt, among other places.

...
There are some connections between ancient Ireland and Mediterranean Christianity I am sure though.

peace.
 

Irish45

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It may not be Egyptiion, but it's possible.  If it's possible, then when you compare it to other evidence, it might make the big picture become clearer. 

In the article, there is a link to an article from the independent(linked below) that says it has "Egyptian-style leather binding" Also in an article from phys.org(linked below), it says"

"It appears the manuscript's leather binding came from Egypt. The question is whether the papyrus came with the cover or if it was added."


I guess we will know in heaven...

https://phys.org/news/2010-09-egyptian-papyrus-ancient-irish-bog.html#jCp



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/manuscript-dug-from-bog-rates-among-our-top-10-biggest-finds-26678101.html

rakovsky said:
Irish45 said:
I brought attention to it because it's adds credibility to the idea of the Coptic Church influencing the Irish Church.  How?  It proves that cultural exchanges are possible, even at great distances. 
THe article you pointed to says that the connection is the fact that the artifact from 800 AD has papyrus, and papyrus is grown in Egypt.
But...
not just Egypt, but other places like Syria and Sicily.
So this doesn't show much connection between Ireland and the Coptic Church at all.


It shows that the Irish book was made in 800 AD from Papyrus, a substance that could be from Egypt, among other places.

...
There are some connections between ancient Ireland and Mediterranean Christianity I am sure though.

peace.
 

Mor Ephrem

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St Patrick was bishop of Armagh, which sounds like a combination of Armenia and madagh. 

St Patrick was Armenian. 
 

rakovsky

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Irish45 said:
It may not be Egyptiion, but it's possible.  If it's possible, then when you compare it to other evidence, it might make the big picture become clearer. 

In the article, there is a link to an article from the independent(linked below) that says it has "Egyptian-style leather binding" Also in an article from phys.org(linked below), it says"

"It appears the manuscript's leather binding came from Egypt. The question is whether the papyrus came with the cover or if it was added."
Irish,
It's like the Shroud of Turin. The shroud's cloth could have a special sewing style used in Egypt and the cotton could be Egyptian. But that doesn't show us where the shroud's image was made, necessarily. Medieval French and Italians could get Egyptian linen cloth, but so could Syrians or Judeans.

So the Irish book could have Egyptian materials, but it's hard to draw more conclusions, like if the Irish monk was studying from Egyptians, or if he bought a book in Italy whose physical materials came from Egypt.
 

rakovsky

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Mor Ephrem said:
St Patrick was bishop of Armagh, which sounds like a combination of Armenia and madagh. 

St Patrick was Armenian.
It reminds me of this one:

In this study you'll find the Galatians, the Galileans, the Gauls, the Galacians, those of Galli, Gallia, are one and the same people, just used with a very slight different dialect pronunciation from different areas. All Historical sources as well as the Bible agree very precisely in identifying them.
...
Act 2:7 "And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans?" They could tell by Peter's speech he was a Galilean, as they were all so distinct from the people of Palestine. Mar 14:70 "And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean, and thy speech agreeth thereto." (Everyone knew all of Christ's followers were Galileans).

How was everyone able to tell from far away that someone was a Nazarene Galilean? Lam 4:7 "Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire:" 'Sapphire' in any dictionary reads: "The blue color of the gem sapphire." 'Ruddy' is always "flushing red in the face". Even in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary #119 for ruddy it says it's red hair, and can turn red in the face due to a fair complexion. "Fair skin" is always associated and noted as you will read below.
http://www.christsassembly.com/literature/galatians.htm

 

rakovsky

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Mor Ephrem said:
St Patrick was bishop of Armagh, which sounds like a combination of Armenia and madagh. 

St Patrick was Armenian.

From the Armenian HYE Forum:
The Irish have some stone crosses, somehow similar to our Khatchkar ,
...
It is obvious that Celtic stone crosses were influenced by Armenian khachkars given the migration of the Armenians westward and the historical period of their occurrence.
http://www.armenianhighland.com/
A lot of Armenian cross stones are made exactly in the same spirit of the symbol of eternity. The manifestation of the symbol of eternity is very typical of the entire Armenian religious architecture and the cross stones, in particular.
....
There is a very strange connection between Karahunj and Stonehenge.
They look very very similar and I believe they were built for the same purposes.
Though, the time difference is about 3,000 years.(Karahunj is much older!!!!! )
If you look at those 2 words...it's getting interesting....
KARA is STONE !!! There is no such word as HENGE in English (it's of Celtic origin), but the word HENGE sounds pretty much like HUNJ!!!So... STONEHENGE and KARAHUNJ actually have the same meaning!!!!!!!!!!!
http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=197
An Armenian writer says:
Armenian Cross-stones (Khach-qar) and their similarities with Irish Cross-stones

On the original stone crosses (Khachkar) we invariably see intricate carving, like the interlacing pattern seen in Celtic knots. Apart from the distinctive ‘wings’, Armenian Cross designs are quite individual.


Specifically, she looked at the famous khachkar of the Harants monastery that dates back to 1639 where the cross of this khachkar is encircled on its eastern side (illus. 2).Archaeological research and excavations carried out in recent years have uncovered new similarities between Irish high crosses and the early Christian Armenian monuments.

Several years ago, Hamlet Petrosyan stressed the importance of the so-called ‘crosses on poles’ (processional crosses) of the fifth-seventh centuries engraved on the stelae and church walls as objects for further comparison with Irish high crosses (Petrosyan 2008: 52).

https://narinnamkn.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/armenian-cross-stones-khach-qar-and-their-similarities-with-irish-cross-stones/
 
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