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Anglican bishops in secret Vatican summit

Rastaman

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7664705/Anglican-bishops-in-secret-Vatican-summit.html#top

In a move likely to raise tensions between the two Churches, a group of Church of England bishops met last week with advisers of Pope Benedict XVI to set in motion steps that would allow priests to convert to Catholicism en masse.

They are set to resign their orders in opposition to the introduction of women bishops and to lead an exodus of Anglican clerics to the Catholic Church despite Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, urging them not to leave.
 

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Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
 

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88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
 

Papist

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monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
 

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Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
If they really believed in those doctrines, wouldn't they have become Catholic long ago, without the ordinariate allowing them to keep some of their customs (like married priests)? :eek:
 

Papist

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Jetavan said:
Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
If they really believed in those doctrines, wouldn't they have become Catholic long ago, without the ordinariate allowing them to keep some of their customs (like married priests)? :eek:
Are you suggesting that they don't believe these things? Do you think they lied about it?
 

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Papist said:
Jetavan said:
Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
If they really believed in those doctrines, wouldn't they have become Catholic long ago, without the ordinariate allowing them to keep some of their customs (like married priests)? :eek:
Are you suggesting that they don't believe these things? Do you think they lied about it?
I'm just curious about their desire to keep some of their Anglican customs. Many Anglicans have entered the Catholic Church, relinquishing their Anglican heritage (which was no small sacrifice).
 

Iconodule

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Papist said:
Jetavan said:
Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
If they really believed in those doctrines, wouldn't they have become Catholic long ago, without the ordinariate allowing them to keep some of their customs (like married priests)? :eek:
Are you suggesting that they don't believe these things? Do you think they lied about it?
I imagine that their conversions are sincere. That said, conversions can be a lot easier when they are more convenient.
 

Papist

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Iconodule said:
Papist said:
Jetavan said:
Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
If they really believed in those doctrines, wouldn't they have become Catholic long ago, without the ordinariate allowing them to keep some of their customs (like married priests)? :eek:
Are you suggesting that they don't believe these things? Do you think they lied about it?
I imagine that their conversions are sincere. That said, conversions can be a lot easier when they are more convenient.
1. Do they honestly believe in the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, and the Filioque?
2. I am glad you recognize their conversions as sincere. If they are sincere in their converstions to the Catholic Church then they are sincerely becoming Catholic which means that they hold beliefs contrary to your Church. In which case, it seems that you would prefer that they not become Eastern Orthodox.
3. If their converstion to Catholicism is a matter of convenience and not conviction, then it is not sincere.
 

Papist

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Jetavan said:
Papist said:
Jetavan said:
Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
If they really believed in those doctrines, wouldn't they have become Catholic long ago, without the ordinariate allowing them to keep some of their customs (like married priests)? :eek:
Are you suggesting that they don't believe these things? Do you think they lied about it?
I'm just curious about their desire to keep some of their Anglican customs. Many Anglicans have entered the Catholic Church, relinquishing their Anglican heritage (which was no small sacrifice).
I think that they the reason theyare mentioning this is because they have seen the Catholic Church allow such things from time to time.
 

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Forgive my ignorance, but aren't most of the bishops and priests that are looking to "defect" to the Roman Catholic Church Anglo-Catholics/High Church Anglicans? It seems to me like they'd be returning to the roots of their Western Christian heritage. Seeing as High Church Anglicanism looks more traditional - liturgically speaking - than much of the Novus Ordo RC church, perhaps these bishops and priests can be allowed to celebrate an English Tridentine Mass, or something like that? Surely some sort of concession can be made.

I apologize if I'm mistaken regarding the liturgical traditionalism of the RCC as a whole. I'm simply speaking from personal experience. I've attended Mass at a local Anglo-Catholic parish and it looked far more like the Missa Solemnis (which I've witnessed before at my mom's childhood RC parish) than any of the Novus Ordo Masses I've attended.

Anyway, maybe some concessions can be made by the Vatican that would allow the Anglican bishops to celebrate a more traditional, English rite whilst being assimilated fully into the RCC as opposed to simply being a bunch of Anglicans in communion with Rome. This idea of an ordinariate seems like the latter to me.
 

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What exactly is an "Anglican Heritage" anyway?  The use of antiquated English in liturgical services?  I attended an Episcopal (USA) parish for about 4 months when I was 17.  As I recall, everything seemed pretty similar to what I had experienced in a Catholic mass (except that there were no statues in this particular parish and the people knelt at an altar rail to receive communion). The entire Anglican "Common Prayer" service seemed almost identical to the text of an RC mass, right down to the Prefaces and Collects. 

So what then would be the traditions which some Anglicans would be so desperate to preserve?  What characteristics do they feel that they would loose by converting to the RCC en mass?

 

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monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
The Western rite already exists in AOCA and ROCOR, and OCA stated it would allow it long ago, but most recently Met. Jonah expressly told them so. 
 

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Robb said:
What exactly is an "Anglican Heritage" anyway?  The use of antiquated English in liturgical services?  I attended an Episcopal (USA) parish for about 4 months when I was 17.  As I recall, everything seemed pretty similar to what I had experienced in a Catholic mass (except that there were no statues in this particular parish and the people knelt at an altar rail to receive communion). The entire Anglican "Common Prayer" service seemed almost identical to the text of an RC mass, right down to the Prefaces and Collects. 

So what then would be the traditions which some Anglicans would be so desperate to preserve?  What characteristics do they feel that they would loose by converting to the RCC en mass?
It depends on the Anglican, really.  In more than a few cases this move will be an expression of outrage over the innovation of a female bishopric and the conflicts this brings with the more "Catholic" ecclesiology of the High Church Anglicans.  While Anglicanism as a whole has long prided herself on being a "Via Media" between Catholicism and Protestantism, the High Church has seen itself more as the Via Media between the Orthodox and Roman Catholicism.  Some high church Anglicans pride themselves on retaining a married priesthood others prefer to remain celibate, some reject Papism while others see themselves as a reconciling force between England and Rome, the list goes on.  Pope Benedict's Constitution issued last year would allow converts from Anglicanism to retain a married priesthood and also the divergences between the Book of Common Prayer (based off the Sarum Missal, which has slight differences from the Gregorian Liturgy) and the New Mass, in essence allowing for a Roman version of the Antiochian Western Rite here in America.

Depending on your age, if 17 was after 1979 then the American Episcopal Church had altered her Book of Common Prayer to bring it more in line with the Roman mass.  The English churches still use the 1662 Book of Common Prayer (though some high church Anglicans might be using any one of the Roman masses from the past thousand years or the Anglican Service Book, an unofficial BCP published by the Church of England last century). 


FatherHLL said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
The Western rite already exists in AOCA and ROCOR, and OCA stated it would allow it long ago, but most recently Met. Jonah expressly told them so. 
These are (with the exception of ROCOR) American jurisdictions, hardly of any use to the English bishops looking into this move.  Sad, this would be an excellent time to reclaim the British Isles.

Papist said:
1. Do they honestly believe in the Papacy, the Immaculate Conception, and the Filioque?
2. I am glad you recognize their conversions as sincere. If they are sincere in their converstions to the Catholic Church then they are sincerely becoming Catholic which means that they hold beliefs contrary to your Church. In which case, it seems that you would prefer that they not become Eastern Orthodox.
3. If their converstion to Catholicism is a matter of convenience and not conviction, then it is not sincere.
I wouldn't doubt their sincerity to Catholicism, just the Roman expression of it.  The Papacy might be seen as a necessary evil in these times, given the current Archbishop of Canterbury's perceived complicity in the modernization of the English church, as well as his general spinelessness and lack of leadership in the Anglican Communion as a whole (disclaimer: I actually have great respect for Rowan Williams and happen to feel that he is merely a very English man caught in a very troublesome situation who occasionally allows his scholasticism to get the better of him).  Certainly some of the bishops and their flock feel strongly in favor of the Immaculate Conception and the Filioque, whilst I am sure a few others are having a knee-jerk reaction to the final destruction of a Catholic understanding within the Church of England and don't recognize Orthodoxy as a viable option in the British Isles.
 

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Robb said:
The entire Anglican "Common Prayer" service seemed almost identical to the text of an RC mass, right down to the Prefaces and Collects.  
My exposure was Canadian in the late 1970s. They used the 1962 Book of Common Prayer, which has been described as a revision of the classic 1662 text with some influence from the aborted 1928 UK version (itself a byproduct of the Oxford Movement). It's kind of odd going from the 1962 BCP to the Novus Ordo Mass a few years later. In terms of the "style" of worship, the Roman Catholics were as "low church" or folksy as anything the Anglicans could offer, but the Catholic hymns were worse, and even the basic ICEL/ecumenical text is inferior to the modified 1962 Cranmer (in terms of dynamic equivalence).

The other thing I noticed was that the Catholics were using something called the Revised Common Lectionary. Out went consistent texts used throughout each liturgical year - there was now a Matthew year, a Mark/John year and a Luke year. It seemed very much at odds with the lectionary readings which had come down through the centuries.

Interestingly enough, the Lutherans and the Anglicans are now on the same three-year plan. In the worst sort of ecumenism, the ICEL Novus Ordo has impacted many Protestant and Anglican liturgies, with phrases and prayers copied from the rite, and the wholesale adoption of the 1970 lectionary readings.

In the 1980s, the Canadian Anglicans jettisoned the 1962 BCP in favour of the "inclusive language" Book of Alternative Services rites (one of which I read was a carbon copy of the ICEL Novus Ordo). Within the BAS, there was also a so-called Toronto Rite, which is a heavily revised rearranging of the more sacral 1962 text according to Roman Catholic usage (it does not pass muster with the BCP enthusiasts at prayerbook.ca.) The Toronto rite was devised by a liberal Anglo-Catholic parish here, St. Mary Magdalene. Nearly all sung services in Canada use the BAS, most BCP services are spoken.

The Canadian Anglicans have all the novelties you'd expect - female priests/bishops, a slow rollout of same-sex blessings, and even joint commemorations of the (female) Lutheran hierarch since the Canadian Lutherans are now in full communion with the ACC including joint statements of belief.

It's odd that I only spent a few years with them as a kid, but still keep track of the goings on in their church and an appreciation of its many traditions. You don't hear much about Romeward Anglicans here, although there is an Anglican-use parish in Milton, I believe.
 

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John Larocque said:
It's odd that I only spent a few years with them as a kid, but still keep track of the goings on in their church and an appreciation of its many traditions. You don't hear much about Romeward Anglicans here, although there is an Anglican-use parish in Milton, I believe.
You will find pockets of strong 'Continuing Anglicans' within Canada, which tend to be more Rome-ward.  The Anglican Catholic Church of Canada for example.
 

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monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
Christ is Risen!

Metropolitan Hilarion of the Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad) is encouraging the establishing of a Western Rite mission in the UK.

It's only in its first days and having teething problems.  But let us pray that something good will come from it.

See  http://sarisburium.blogspot.com/
 

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Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
God wants them.
 
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As an ex-Anglican minister I recognise the term "Anglican tradition" to encompass a definite spirituality expressed within very English roots. before leaping to gather up all the disgruntled vicars one should question the motive for conversion. Many of these men could have left the C of E when the ordination of women was first introduced in thh UK but from experience I know a number chose to stay on to build up their pensions. Leaving the C of E is one thing, but disagreement over what it is doing hardly seems sufficient reason to embrace Orthodoxy. The richness that orthodoxy offers is to be desired in and of itself, not as a convenient bonus for someone unhappy with their present situation. Of course some will come and find a good home, but let us not assume Rome wouldn't be the best place for many of them to go.
 

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John Larocque said:
In the worst sort of ecumenism, the ICEL Novus Ordo has impacted many Protestant and Anglican liturgies, with phrases and prayers copied from the rite, and the wholesale adoption of the 1970 lectionary readings.
Thank God that the Holy See just last week officially approved the new, literal and dignified English translation of the Roman Missal. Now preparations are being made to roll it out next year.

 

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It is quite natural for these members of a group that was formerly part of the Patriarchate of Rome to return to its patriarch.
 

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FormerReformer said:
The Papacy might be seen as a necessary evil in these times, given the current Archbishop of Canterbury's perceived complicity in the modernization of the English church, as well as his general spinelessness and lack of leadership in the Anglican Communion as a whole (disclaimer: I actually have great respect for Rowan Williams and happen to feel that he is merely a very English man caught in a very troublesome situation who occasionally allows his scholasticism to get the better of him). 
Except that he is a proud Welshman.  ;D
 

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lubeltri said:
It is quite natural for these members of a group that was formerly part of the Patriarchate of Rome to return to its patriarch.
I agree. While I'd like to see them coming to the Church I can wholly understand why they prefer Rome over Orthodoxy. They must feel like prodigal sons who come back home after years of exile.
 

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Alpo said:
lubeltri said:
It is quite natural for these members of a group that was formerly part of the Patriarchate of Rome to return to its patriarch.
I agree. While I'd like to see them coming to the Church I can wholly understand why they prefer Rome over Orthodoxy. They must feel like prodigal sons who come back home after years of exile.
Christ is Risen!

Well, it's an interesting situation for the English.  Does anybody recall that at the time when women priests were introduced to England Cardinal Basil Hume made efforts to help the many convert Anglican priests to understand Catholicism and to inculturate.

For most of them the effort was unsuccessful and they returned to Anglicanism.

The reason they invariably gave was that the cultural norms of modern English Roman Catholicism are too different to those of Anglicanism.  They couldn't adapt.

So let's see what happens with this new batch of potential converts.
 

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lubeltri said:
FormerReformer said:
The Papacy might be seen as a necessary evil in these times, given the current Archbishop of Canterbury's perceived complicity in the modernization of the English church, as well as his general spinelessness and lack of leadership in the Anglican Communion as a whole (disclaimer: I actually have great respect for Rowan Williams and happen to feel that he is merely a very English man caught in a very troublesome situation who occasionally allows his scholasticism to get the better of him). 
Except that he is a proud Welshman.  ;D
Well, in that case he has no excuse  :D
 

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Irish Hermit said:
Alpo said:
lubeltri said:
It is quite natural for these members of a group that was formerly part of the Patriarchate of Rome to return to its patriarch.
I agree. While I'd like to see them coming to the Church I can wholly understand why they prefer Rome over Orthodoxy. They must feel like prodigal sons who come back home after years of exile.
Christ is Risen!

Well, it's an interesting situation for the English.  Does anybody recall that at the time when women priests were introduced to England Cardinal Basil Hume made efforts to help the many convert Anglican priests to understand Catholicism and to inculturate.

For most of them the effort was unsuccessful and they returned to Anglicanism.

The reason they invariably gave was that the cultural norms of modern English Roman Catholicism are too different to those of Anglicanism.  They couldn't adapt.

So let's see what happens with this new batch of potential converts.
I am actually hoping that the traditionalism of the Anglo-catholics that are converting will have a positive influence on the Catholic Church as a whole and will help to heal some of the damage that has be done by modernists. I pray for a sort of good viral infection.
 

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Sub-Deacon Stephen said:
Of course some will come and find a good home, but let us not assume Rome wouldn't be the best place for many of them to go.
Outside of the True Church is the best place to go?
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Sub-Deacon Stephen said:
Of course some will come and find a good home, but let us not assume Rome wouldn't be the best place for many of them to go.
Outside of the True Church is the best place to go?
Would it not be best for them to remain outside of the Eastern Orthodox Church if they do not believe in Easter Orthodoxy?
 

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I still don't see what the big whoop is about Anglicanism which would require converts to the RCC to retain their own liturgical books.  Cardinal Newman and his Tractarian friends seemed to have no problems accepting the Roman/Latin liturgy and missal way back in the 19th century.  These were, of course back in the days when there was an obvious and pronounced difference between the vernacular liturgy of the Anglicans and the Latin ritual which Rome preserved and fostered.  Did Newman and his companions who swam the Tiber ask for permission to use the vernacular as an expression of their distinct "English-ness"?  I just don't see whats so all important about the Book of Common Prayer (Which itself was blunt Protestantization) Having to be so carefully preserved by the Vatican as if it were a genuine work of religious spirituality and not a compromised, watered down version of ancient British liturgies (Which were themselves watered down versions of the DL of the East). 

When do we, in our attempts to patronize and comfort potential converts, draw the line as to the amount of acculturation and accommodation that we will permit to be introduced?  Is there a line that can be drawn at all?
 
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Robb said:
I still don't see what the big whoop is about Anglicanism which would require converts to the RCC to retain their own liturgical books.  Cardinal Newman and his Tractarian friends seemed to have no problems accepting the Roman/Latin liturgy and missal way back in the 19th century.  These were, of course back in the days when there was an obvious and pronounced difference between the vernacular liturgy of the Anglicans and the Latin ritual which Rome preserved and fostered.  Did Newman and his companions who swam the Tiber ask for permission to use the vernacular as an expression of their distinct "English-ness"?  I just don't see whats so all important about the Book of Common Prayer (Which itself was blunt Protestantization) Having to be so carefully preserved by the Vatican as if it were a genuine work of religious spirituality and not a compromised, watered down version of ancient British liturgies (Which were themselves watered down versions of the DL of the East). 

When do we, in our attempts to patronize and comfort potential converts, draw the line as to the amount of acculturation and accommodation that we will permit to be introduced?  Is there a line that can be drawn at all?
Why are you so concerned about what efforts Rome is making to accept the Anglicans? You belong to neither Church.

The Orthodox Church has the Western Rite; if an entire Anglican parish wanted to convert to Orthodoxy and use the Western Rite, there shouldn't be a problem with them doing so.

As no Anglican parishes seem to be asking to do so, why worry about it?

Prior to the schism, multiple forms of the Liturgy existed in different parts of the world, reflecting the local culture. I don't see why it shouldn't be that way now.
 

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Yes, its true that I don't have a "dog in this hunt", but still whats wrong with converts from Anglicanism just accepting the DL (Or in the case of RC's the Roman mass) as opposed to having their own separate rite?  Is Anglicanism to be considered a valid expression of sacramental Christianity?
 

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Robb said:
Yes, its true that I don't have a "dog in this hunt", but still whats wrong with converts from Anglicanism just accepting the DL (Or in the case of RC's the Roman mass) as opposed to having their own separate rite?  Is Anglicanism to be considered a valid expression of sacramental Christianity?
There have been a few people on both the Roman and Orthodox side of things who were willing to accept Anglicanism as a valid expression of sacramental and apostolic Christianity.  Sadly, the innovations of the past 30+ years have taken the Anglican Communion out of any sort of Catholic standing whatsoever.

This question has actually popped up on a few different threads today, I'll see if I can't hunt down some of the back and forth.

Edit: This thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,27317.45.html  The title is Russian vs Greek view of validity of RC Mysteries, but they start sidetracking into Anglicanism starting at reply 19.
 

akimel

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Robb said:
Yes, its true that I don't have a "dog in this hunt", but still whats wrong with converts from Anglicanism just accepting the DL (Or in the case of RC's the Roman mass) as opposed to having their own separate rite?  Is Anglicanism to be considered a valid expression of sacramental Christianity?
Actually, in England many (most?) of these Anglo-Papists already use the Novus Ordo--they just do so in a more dignified, solemn manner.  The days of the Anglican Missal are over (unfortunately). 

An Anglican patrimony does exist, no matter how difficult it may be to verbally specify.  It's partly cultural but it's also more than cultural.  It is embodied in ritual, poetry, hymnody, and spirituality.  Unfortunately, English Roman Catholicism (partly because of the Irish connection) is unable, or unwilling, to embrace and assimilate the Anglican patrimony--hence the end run around the English hierarchy straight to the Pope.   
 

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Jetavan said:
Papist said:
monkvasyl said:
88Devin12 said:
Time for the Orthodox to step in as well? Can't let the Roman Catholics have all them can we?  ;D
Would we be willing to allow for a Western Rite?  At least we can give them another option besides Rome.
These particular Anglicans believe in the Papacy, the Filioque, and the Immaculate Conception. Do you really want them?
If they really believed in those doctrines, wouldn't they have become Catholic long ago, without the ordinariate allowing them to keep some of their customs (like married priests)? :eek:
There are alot of Anglo-Catholics that believe those things, and there are Anglo-Catholics that don't. They are a mixed bag.







Christ is Risen!
 

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Robb said:
Yes, its true that I don't have a "dog in this hunt", but still whats wrong with converts from Anglicanism just accepting the DL (Or in the case of RC's the Roman mass) as opposed to having their own separate rite?  Is Anglicanism to be considered a valid expression of sacramental Christianity?
Well, how long has Chrisitianity been in Englad?
 
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Papist said:
Robb said:
Yes, its true that I don't have a "dog in this hunt", but still whats wrong with converts from Anglicanism just accepting the DL (Or in the case of RC's the Roman mass) as opposed to having their own separate rite?  Is Anglicanism to be considered a valid expression of sacramental Christianity?
Well, how long has Chrisitianity been in Englad?
St. Patrick of Ireland was actually born in England, and that was around the 5th Century. So I think it's safe to say, "a long time."  :)

While I don't have the details, from what I've been told (I may have even read it on this forum somewhere) the Anglo-Saxon form of Christianity was quite different prior to the Norman invasion, which made Catholicism in England and Ireland what it is today.

It's also my understanding that the Copts may have had an influence on English monasticism and iconography.
 

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The original Britons were Celts (Who themselves as supposed to have originated somewhere in the Mediterranean.  The Saxons were a Germanic people who came afterwards and pushed the Celtic Brits far west into Wales and Cornwall (With a significant number going to Brittany as well).  The Normans came afterward and pressed down hard their centralized system of Church management onto the people.  Not many of those today who claim British ancestry are actually descended from the original Britons.

 
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Robb said:
The original Britons were Celts (Who themselves as supposed to have originated somewhere in the Mediterranean.  The Saxons were a Germanic people who came afterwards and pushed the Celtic Brits far west into Wales and Cornwall (With a significant number going to Brittany as well).  The Normans came afterward and pressed down hard their centralized system of Church management onto the people.  Not many of those today who claim British ancestry are actually descended from the original Britons.
And my family came to the US long after the Vikings invaded Ukraine. Does that make me Scandinavian?  ::) No.

The point is that Christianity has been in England long enough for it to claim its own cultural associations to it.
 
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