Anglicans and Oriental Christology

[primuspilus]

So, I was reading <a href="http://www.anglicannews.org/news/2014/08/anglicans,-oriental-orthodox-churches-prepare-for-theological-breakthrough.aspx">this article</a> and I was wondering what you all think of it. Basically, the article was saying that Angicans and Oriental Orthodox were ready to agree on a similar Christology. Thoughts?

Especially this:

Archbishop Nareg Alemazian of the Armenian Orthodox Church were joined by Canon Alyson Barnett-Cowan, Director for Unity Faith and Order for the Anglican Communion who said, "Such an agreement on the fundamental theological question about the Incarnation marks a breakthrough in over 1600 years of division.

PP

 

[peterfarrington]

The statement is problematic because the Anglican Church has only existed for 450 years, not 1600.

It is also problematic because the Anglican Communion does not speak with one voice on this or any other matters. A significant proportion of Anglican clergy in the UK do not believe what we might consider to be core beliefs.

Only 33% of women priests in the Church of England believe in the Virgin Birth and only 53% believe in the Resurrection. There are similarly low figures among many other groups. In the Modern Churchpeople's Union, a liberal group whose president is the Bishop of Lincoln, only a quarter of clergy believe in the physical Resurrection and just eight per cent in the Virgin birth.

So I find it difficult to imagine that any agreement with Anglicans can ever be considered to have anything approaching a universal or even official authority.

 

[Raylight]

Only 33% of women priests in the Church of England believe in the Virgin Birth and only 53% believe in the Resurrection. There are similarly low figures among many other groups. In the Modern Churchpeople's Union, a liberal group whose president is the Bishop of Lincoln, only a quarter of clergy believe in the physical Resurrection and just eight per cent in the Virgin birth.

Father, can you please give me the source for these information ?  

 

[peterfarrington]

It's from a formal survey of Anglican clergy in the UK conducted by Christian Research. They received responses from 2000 of the 10000 clergy, so it is a serious poll.

Just google "Anglican Clergy survey Virgin Birth" to find lots of links.

 

[scamandrius]

Yawn.  Agreements of this type are produced every year and most of them really mean nothing.  This one, too.  Nothing will come of it except for a bunch of ignorant media who will hype this to say something stupid along the lines that Anglicans and Orietnal Orthodox will start communing each other and having joint prayer services, etc.  

 

[Raylight]

It's from a formal survey of Anglican clergy in the UK conducted by Christian Research. They received responses from 2000 of the 10000 clergy, so it is a serious poll.

Just google "Anglican Clergy survey Virgin Birth" to find lots of links.

Thank you Father

It is very sad, very very sad to see that women are fighting to become priests, and when they are given that opportunity, they waste it and try to corrupt the church and the believers. 

I became convinced that women shouldn't be allowed to become priests. It is clearly that these women don't really care about being priest to serve God, it is all about " Women can do it " feminism stuff.

Thank you again for the help

 

[peterfarrington]

In fact the survey detail shows that women priests are more orthodox than the male clergy within the liberal groups of Anglicans. In such groups the acceptance of orthodox views is less than among women priests.

 

[Serge]

Right, when you're talking about a denomination that has the power to abolish the creeds through a general synod vote, an agreement on Christology doesn't mean anything, and besides, it makes the Oriental Orthodox look bad to the ancient Chalcedonians (us and the Orthodox), as though the agreement were just a sign of the Anglicans' willingness to jettison orthodoxy.

 

[peterfarrington]

Why on earth would it make it look like the Anglicans were willing to jettison orthodoxy?

 

[Serge]

Because the old-school Chalcedonians have long thought the Orientals were heretics.

Now more of us Chalcedonians think it was all a big misunderstanding. Since your church life/culture is practically identical to the Orthodox (only the rites are different), as part of the big Eastern church family, it's not unlikely that common knowledge might become reality: you'll be considered Orthodox by the Orthodox. I think that's how Rome sees the Orthodox and Oriental families now: Orthodox.

I mean this lightheartedly here though he probably was serious: the late Archimandrite Serge (Keleher), a Catholic, on calling the Orientals "Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox" - "What next? Will the Muslims be dubbed 'Pre-Nicene Orthodox'?"

 

[minasoliman]

I mean this lightheartedly here though he probably was serious: the late Archimandrite Serge (Keleher), a Catholic, on calling the Orientals "Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox" - "What next? Will the Muslims be dubbed 'Pre-Nicene Orthodox'?"

That's a bit disingenuous.  How can you compare Muslims to the likes of St. Ignatius, St. Clement, St. Irenaeus, St. Theophilus of Antioch, etc?  Does that make sense that you call them "pre-Nicene Orthodox" when they're not even close?  This is a ridiculous analogy.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

I mean this lightheartedly here though he probably was serious: the late Archimandrite Serge (Keleher), a Catholic, on calling the Orientals "Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox" - "What next? Will the Muslims be dubbed 'Pre-Nicene Orthodox'?"

What an entirely stupid remark on his part (if indeed he was serious).  The analogy doesn't even fit.  Islam and its beliefs don't predate Nicaea.  If it was an attempt at humor, it would've worked better if he had substituted "Jews" for "Muslims".  Or perhaps "What next?  Will the Catholics be dubbed 'Pre-Lutheran Protestants'"?

 

[peterfarrington]

I am already considered Orthodox by the Orthodox. I tend not to worry what other people think beyond my own responsibilities in ecumenism.

 

[Serge]

Do you commune or concelebrate yet with the Chalcedonian Orthodox? I though the Copts weren't in communion with them yet. Except in America where the Antiochians commune Coptic, Armenian, etc. laity, if I remember rightly.

 

[minasoliman]

If your question is are we in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox, the answer is no.  Communing members differ from church to church.

 

[mabsoota]

these figures about anglican priest beliefs are really shocking!
i mean, i knew things were bad, but not that bad...

there is intercommunion in syria (they are focusing on more important things than chalcedon) and, to some extent, in egypt.
it is just a matter of time before it widens, i think.
maybe more countries need genocide before we see sense and start working together to bring orthodox Christianity to the world
(i hope it doesn't take that to get us working more closely together).

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Do you commune or concelebrate yet with the Chalcedonian Orthodox?

Do you?

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

I am already considered Orthodox by the Orthodox. I tend not to worry what other people think beyond my own responsibilities in ecumenism.

Do you commune or concelebrate yet with the Chalcedonian Orthodox? I though the Copts weren't in communion with them yet.

This is sort of a non sequitor, as I'm pretty sure that what Fr. Peter meant is that he is already considered Orthodox by the Orthodox, i.e. the Copts, Ethiopians, Armenians, Eritreans, and Syriacs (Kerala inclusive). 

Except in America where the Antiochians commune Coptic, Armenian, etc. laity, if I remember rightly.

Not just America.  See mabsoota's post.

Do you commune or concelebrate yet with the Chalcedonian Orthodox?

Do you?

Well, I'll bet the guy who made the remark equating us with Islam considered himself "Orthodox in communion with Rome".

 

[peterfarrington]

A large proportion of the members of the communities I pastor are Eastern Orthodox and they receive communion and participate fully as members of our congregations. I have Russian Orthodox who are Subdeacons and Readers. I often baptise and marry Eastern Orthodox.

These terms are increasingly meaningless, and represent a sinful and willful division.

In one place I have a mission, we have organised a combined Prayer and Bible Study evening once a month with the local EO congregation and priest. As far as is possible we wish to engage in a united mission to the vast non-Orthodox population around us.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

A large proportion of the members of the communities I pastor are Eastern Orthodox and they receive communion and participate fully as members of our congregations. I have Russian Orthodox who are Subdeacons and Readers. I often baptise and marry Eastern Orthodox.

These terms are increasingly meaningless, and represent a sinful and willful division.

In one place I have a mission, we have organised a combined Prayer and Bible Study evening once a month with the local EO congregation and priest. As far as is possible we wish to engage in a united mission to the vast non-Orthodox population around us.

Glory to God.  This sounds idyllic.  I hope that it becomes the norm everywhere over time.

 

[peterfarrington]

I think it has the potential to become the norm when we take a determined pan-Orthodox view in all that we do, and seek only to be the Orthodox Church where God has placed us.

 

[Alpo]

Do you what's your EO parishioners' bishop's opinion on the intercommunion?

 

[peterfarrington]

Many of them are migrants of various lengths of residency. They all seem to return home and commune freely in their own ethnic communities. They choose to worship with me and many of them make a choice to worship in English in England rather than in their own language in a congregation further away.

I was visited a while ago by a group of Romanian Orthodox who were attending a social service conference. One was the wife of a priest. They had researched and decided to worship with us the week they were here and came bearing religious gifts. I still use the stole I was given for Holy Thursday.

One Russian bishop here in the UK offered to commune an entire congregation of our people one Pascha when their church building suddenly became unstable. In another place my local congregation receive communion in the local EO church when I am not able to be there, and this was with the permission and instruction of the EO Patriarch in question.

I think things are changing quite quickly.

 

[Chrismated]

Father Peter,  I was unaware that there was a British Orthodox Church until reading mention of it on this forum. I have a question for you; Do you use the BCP for your Liturgy, and if so, do you use it as it was rejected by the ROC, or as it has been "tweaked" for orthodoxy. If not, which Liturgy do you use? Thank you. God bless.

 

[mabsoota]

the british orthodox use the liturgy of saint james of jerusalem; it is similar to the byzantine liturgy of the same name.
it is lovely, and does not resemble an anglican service very much at all.

 

[peterfarrington]

Yes, as mabsoota says, we use a liturgical English edition of the ancient Greek Liturgy of St James. We use the other services of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate, again in our own liturgical English editions.

 

[Nephi]

One Russian bishop here in the UK offered to commune an entire congregation of our people one Pascha when their church building suddenly became unstable. In another place my local congregation receive communion in the local EO church when I am not able to be there, and this was with the permission and instruction of the EO Patriarch in question.

I think things are changing quite quickly.

 

[LBK]

Father Peter,  I was unaware that there was a British Orthodox Church until reading mention of it on this forum. I have a question for you; Do you use the BCP for your Liturgy, and if so, do you use it as it was rejected by the ROC, or as it has been "tweaked" for orthodoxy. If not, which Liturgy do you use? Thank you. God bless.

The British Orthodox Church is OO, not WRO.

 

[Chrismated]

I am so glad to hear that you are not "Anglican". I personally think that the Anglicans are much closer to Rome than to EO or OO (virtually the same). I do not consider Anglicans to be orthodox, though some, in the USA are "very close" to being so. If they would give up the BCP and it's errors, and embrace one of the other "Western Rites", which are very  close to ER, such as the venerable Ambrosian Rite, or the Galican Rite) and stop holding on to their' "Anglican Tradition" (definitely non orthodox) and decide once and for all to be Ortoxox, all the way, and not Anglican (hurts to add this to Anglican) orthodox, then, maybe, in time, they will be truly orthodox.