• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Antiochian Met. Phillip fires priest for wearing cassock

Second Chance

Merarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
8,025
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Age
77
Location
South Carolina
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the South (OCA)
LizaSymonenko said:
I am from Michigan and have been witness to some of the odd behavior of the Antiochian clergy who penned the first letter that put this whole thing in motion.

From what I gathered, it simply seems to me that the Antiochian clergy wish to "modernize" Orthodoxy.  I actually sat in a class for weeks that was taught by one of the priests.  Countless times "Slavic" Orthodoxy was ridiculed and called fanatical. 

At first the references seemed petty, but, after weeks of it, I actually found myself having to defend what I thought (and still do) as proper Orthodox practices. 

It isn't even just that priests should wear cassocks, or that they should have no beards.  All of this is between the hierarchs and clergy.

However, when he began disparaging the Slavs (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) for their fanaticism, it was a bit much.  We pray for catechumens.  We actually yell out "the doors, the doors!", we even CLOSE the Royal Gates - how rude is that of us, and it seemed the worst thing was that we stand in church.  I was told that if I come to his church and wish to stand, I need to park myself in the back so that I do not ruin the view for those who are sitting.  We were called "Super Orthodox!" which I am certain was meant to offend, but, didn't...as he was of the opinion we stuck too closely to rules, traditions, etc.  We need to change with the times.  We need to be more flexible.

I personally, love the Orthodox Church just the way it is.  It will not die if it does not "modernize".  However, it will get ill if it does.  The Church has been in existence for a long time.  Can you imagine what would be left of it, if it changed and morphed to suit each consecutive generation?

The fact that Orthodoxy changes little (only when necessary) is what draws people to it.

Why fix it, if it isn't broken?

May the Lord have mercy on everyone involved, and preserve Orthodoxy and the faithful!  This is all just a sad mark on the Church.  The devil does not sleep.
Just to be clear for everybody, are referring to the Detroit area clergy, the +Philip Country Club, that I had referred to as the bad apples? They are the ones who circulated that gloating letter against Bishop Mark.
 

IXOYE

Archon
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
3,017
Reaction score
36
Points
48
"Besides if I wanted to look like a Protestant or a Roman Catholic clergyman, then I would have joined either of their churches."

Well put Father.  Roman Catholic priests (except Eastern Catholic priests) do not dress in an Orthoodx cassock taking on Orthodox appearance. 
 

serb1389

Merarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
Messages
9,123
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Vallejo, CA (current); Gurnee, IL (greater Chicag
Website
www.greekorthodoxvallejo.org
I think in the midst of all the conversation it is good to keep in mind that clergy dress HAS changed throughout the centuries.  Cassocks used to be what EVERYONE wore, what WOMEN wore, and even what priests wore (according to some liturgical history). 

It has not been ONE consistent thing, every century, but rather something that distinguishes clergy from the rest of the laos (people).  This point however, shouldn't be taken to extremes, on any end. 
 

Maksim

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
86
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
42
This whole issue is very sad and puzzling to me.  I just hope there is some more reasonable explanation that we haven't yet heard.

Speaking as a convert, I can understand mandating adherence to tradition.  I can understand allowing a relaxation in a practice for pastoral reasons.  But mandating non-adherence to tradition?  ???  It sends a very confusing message, IMO.
 

Lichnidos

Elder
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
265
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
The Badlands
I don't think we should get too hung up on the externals since they're usually cover for deeper problems. Besides, I don't believe most Antiochian parishes ridicule Slavic Traditions. If so, I would have been long gone, long ago. My parish actually embraces all culture.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2007
Messages
2,981
Reaction score
319
Points
83
Age
58
Location
USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Antioch
I have to confess that I feel that Fr David Moretti, Bishop Mark etc. are victims of a gangster coterie and felt this coterie are the whole cause of the bishop demotion issue in 2009 when participating in a thread back then. My paternal grandparents were cradle Syrian Orthodox & my grandfather was parish treasurer and a lay faction did not like the parish priest during World War 2 (in the USA) and harried him out of his parish. No moral issues were involved & there was a deep rift in the congregation & many ceased being Orthodox; my grandfather helped lead the group who wanted the priest maintained calling on then Metr. Antony Bashir but the issue was left to a lay vote and the priest & his supproters lost. I do recall finding icons packed away the priest gave my grandparents for their devotion to the church in 1943 & 1 year later they & others had left the church (although my grandmother later returned). I think there was gangsterism in both instances & will always be skeptical of hierarchs.
 

nstanosheck

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
1,837
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
49
Location
Dallas, TX, United States of America
Website
nstanosheck.blogspot.com
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver
Second Chance said:
In this mess, we should be clear about the following;

- Metropolitan Philip's stated reasons for firing Father David Moretti and dumping his wife and children onto the street are simply not true. In other words, the Metropolitan's letter contains untruths but I do not know if +Philip is lying (that is that he knows what he put signature to are untruths).  Father Moretti was indeed criticized for being out out of uniform but he immediately repented and restarted to wear the Roman Catholic/Anglican garb that the Metropolitan favors. I believe this happened while Bishop Mark was still the ruling bishop. Father Moretti also claims that he did not publicly disparage the Metropolitan. I believe him and I do not believe the Metropolitan who has been known to lie to his own Patriarch.

- Metropolitan Philip appears to be moving against those priests in the Toledo Diocese who had sided with Bishop Mark in trying to become better Orthodox (more prayer and services/less gambling and belly dancing). These good priests stood out as a silent but public rebuke to those priests who did not want to be led by a convert bishop (that is a non-Arab), who did want to follow common Orthodox praxis, and who did not want their crooked financial practices exposed. In any sane world, you would think that these bad shepherds, wolves in sheep's clothing, would be put out of business by the ecclesiastic or secular authorities. Not so in the Philip's Wonderland; these bad apples are +Philip's buddies, sychophants and financiers. So, +Philip is punishing Father Moretti, the priest being transferred from Sylvania, and may be even others, to placate those bad apples.

- In all of this rhubarb, we must not lose sight of the fact that +Philip is the arch-pastor of the two priests, their families and the affected parishes. He has failed to live up to the standards of a loving and just arch-pastor. He has revealed himself to be a vindictive, little man, a despot that would make a Medieval Pope proud. Actually, I must retract that last part; it is an insult to compare the Metropolitan to a Roman Pope, as I am afraid I have done too many times already. +Philip makes any Pope a virtuous and humble man in comparison.
As many times as he lied about having autocephaly or autonomy over the years, people should have learned long ago that Metropolitan Philip is a power-hungry liar and possibly a little insane.

Edited for the proper titles - Michał Kalina.
 

Lichnidos

Elder
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
265
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
The Badlands
guys lets not go down the ad hominem path. there are arguments and truth. besides the office is still Metropolitan even if we vehemently disagree with some decisions.

If people have been hurt there are avenues for this, please seek. the Church is for healing. :)
 

Second Chance

Merarches
Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
8,025
Reaction score
5
Points
36
Age
77
Location
South Carolina
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of the South (OCA)
Lichnidos said:
guys lets not go down the ad hominem path. there are arguments and truth. besides the office is still Metropolitan even if we vehemently disagree with some decisions.

If people have been hurt there are avenues for this, please seek. the Church is for healing. :)
I do not think that anybody is using ad hominem arguments. We all have stated our reasons and reasoning for our conclusions. I do get you point about respecting the office and backing off from name calling though. I will henceforth limit myself to "Anaxios!"
 

Lichnidos

Elder
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
265
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
The Badlands
Second Chance said:
Lichnidos said:
guys lets not go down the ad hominem path. there are arguments and truth. besides the office is still Metropolitan even if we vehemently disagree with some decisions.

If people have been hurt there are avenues for this, please seek. the Church is for healing. :)
I do not think that anybody is using ad hominem arguments. We all have stated our reasons and reasoning for our conclusions. I do get you point about respecting the office and backing off from name calling though. I will henceforth limit myself to "Anaxios!"
Please accept my apologies. It is I who has said quite enough! :)
 

Quinault

Protokentarchos
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
4,979
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
44
Location
Seattle, WA
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Antiochian
Some of the tags for this thread are a little extreme.
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
40,334
Reaction score
821
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
Quinault said:
Some of the tags for this thread are a little extreme.
Yeah, I thought so as well, though the only one I deleted was "heretic".
 

Antonis

Archon
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 13, 2010
Messages
2,996
Reaction score
1
Points
0
I don't like it when my priest wears a suit with the collar. Why do we change to fit in with the Latins and Anglicans? I applaud the priest who wore the cassock.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,756
Reaction score
286
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Shanghaiski said:
MLPB said:
Yikes!  If we are going to have a Pope, let's have just one.  A bunch of "Popelettes" seems to be the worst of all worlds.
I think His Holiness the Pope of Rome would be a tad envious of His Eminence Metropolitan Philip. The Pope of Rome only has the illusion of ultimate power. If he really had ultimate power, there would be a nice inquisition against clown masses and liturgical dance, or so I would hope.
Maybe he likes clowns? They make him laugh. he he.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,756
Reaction score
286
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Lichnidos said:
I believe this has a lot to do with a very misguided view on authority and obedience.

Especially since the 'directive' for Priests not to wear cassocks in public is what can be deemed outside of the Traditional measures of the Church. Personally, I don't have a problem Priests blending in and case can be made that it is more pastorally sound that they do. However, I highly doubt that the cassock was the real reason why His Eminence 'fired' Father David.
Forgive me for lengthening discussion on bad church politics, but how would he know that the priest wore a cassock in public? It seems that someone would have had to "report" on the priest for the Metr. to know about it.
 

observer

High Elder
Joined
Dec 11, 2004
Messages
546
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Unfortunately it seems to be like that. Disgruntled parishioners phoning the ruling bishop when they don't get their own way and the poor bishop needs support from parishioners for his medical insurance. Not easy being a hierarch, priest or pious layman.
 

Matrona

High Elder
Joined
Dec 20, 2003
Messages
999
Reaction score
1
Points
0
I think "Anaxios!" says it all to Metropolitan Philip.  He seems to have simply gone around the twist.
 

nss379

Newbie
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Points
0
"When people treat us unjustly, God justifies us." ~Elder Epiphanios of Athens +1989

"...take a look at two olive trees, one with leaves and the other without. Which one of the two do you prefer? The one with leaves or the one without leaves? Once when i was at the Kalyvi of the Holy Cross, I peeled the trunk of an olive tree and wrote, 'A priest without his cassock is without his virtue too.'..." ~ Elder Paisios of Mount Athos +1994

"The priest's cassock is the flag of the Church of our Christ:  for this reason we must try hard to honor it, we who wear it, with a holy life, so that those who don't wear it will honor and respect it." Elder Amphilochios of Patmos +1970

"I am proud of the cassock I wear and consider it more valuab;e and seemly than every other kind of garmet, even than the royal purple robes of kings. I consider myself unworthy to dress in such a modest, honorable and holy garb, which was honored by numberless monastic Saints, monk-martyrs, confessors, and Saints. I am saddened by and pity those clerics who reject the cassock and who shave their beards." ~Elder Philotheos of Paros +1980

"Priests shouldn't cut their hair. In Asia Minor, when priesys would comb their hair, they would put a white clth down and whatever strands of hair fell, they would gather, put them in a little bag, and when they died, they would bury it with them. Thus is because, when the Holy Spirit descends during ordination, the priest is sanctified; even his hair is sanctified." ~ Elder Iakovos of Evia +1967
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
40,334
Reaction score
821
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
Why exactly does this thread have a thumbs up attached to it?
 

James

Archon
Joined
May 31, 2003
Messages
2,749
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
71
Location
Ventura, California
Although this incident is outside my realm I must say I support the priest for wearing a cassock. Last week I saw a Coptic priest wearing a cassock at his son's soccer game, I had nothing but respect for him and wished that I had spoken to him, but was in transition between my granddaughters soccer games...
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
40,334
Reaction score
821
Points
113
Faith
-
Jurisdiction
-
Nigula Qian Zishi said:
Asteriktos said:
Why exactly does this thread have a thumbs up attached to it?
I meant to do thumbs down, but once I noticed it was past time allowed for editing the post. :-(
Ok, I was just confused by it, thank you for posting about it though.
 

mattymoo

Jr. Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
50
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Metropolitan Phillip has certainly created an interesting position for himself: as the only "true" Bishop of the "diocese" of North America none of his "auxiliary bishops" can convene a council, but at the same time, as the Primate of an "autonomous" Church he also expects no input from the Patriarch of Antioch. He is neither answerable to a synod of other bishops equal to or even "below" him nor is he answerable to anyone "above" him. An entire autonomous Orthodox Church consisting of only one bishop is certainly an ecclesiastical oddity.

Since the elevation of new bishops requires the laying on of hands of three existing bishops where will the autonomous Antiochian Church in America turn to for the required other two bishops for future elevations? Indeed, if there is only one Antiochian "super-diocese" and hence only one Antiochian bishop in North America (all the other bishops being merely auxiliary, and thus not functioning as equal members of a synod of bishops) who will convene the synod when Metropolitan Phillip retires or departs this life?

The best possible response to all of this is to pray for Metropolitan Phillip and for all those who are being affected by any of the recent developments. Some may, and will, express their opinions. Some will call for action. That is natural and may turn out to be a good thing, but we must remember the power of prayer.
 

Ortho_cat

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
5,392
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
40
Location
Wichita, KS
mattymoo said:
Metropolitan Phillip has certainly created an interesting position for himself: as the only "true" Bishop of the "diocese" of North America none of his "auxiliary bishops" can convene a council, but at the same time, as the Primate of an "autonomous" Church he also expects no input from the Patriarch of Antioch. He is neither answerable to a synod of other bishops equal to or even "below" him nor is he answerable to anyone "above" him. An entire autonomous Orthodox Church consisting of only one bishop is certainly an ecclesiastical oddity.

Since the elevation of new bishops requires the laying on of hands of three existing bishops where will the autonomous Antiochian Church in America turn to for the required other two bishops for future elevations? Indeed, if there is only one Antiochian "super-diocese" and hence only one Antiochian bishop in North America (all the other bishops being merely auxiliary, and thus not functioning as equal members of a synod of bishops) who will convene the synod when Metropolitan Phillip retires or departs this life?

The best possible response to all of this is to pray for Metropolitan Phillip and for all those who are being affected by any of the recent developments. Some may, and will, express their opinions. Some will call for action. That is natural aecidnd may turn out to be a good thing, but we must remember the power of prayer.
All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
 

Andrew21091

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
1,272
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Age
31
Location
Grand Rapids, MI
Ortho_cat said:
All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
Nobody will.
 

Ortho_cat

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
5,392
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
40
Location
Wichita, KS
Andrew21091 said:
Ortho_cat said:
All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
Nobody will.
Why not?
 

mattymoo

Jr. Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
50
Location
Philadelphia, PA
An awful lot seems to be happening very rapidly - I guess time will tell what the results will end up being.
 

Shlomlokh

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,356
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Roanoke, VA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Bulgarian/GOA
Ortho_cat said:
mattymoo said:
Metropolitan Phillip has certainly created an interesting position for himself: as the only "true" Bishop of the "diocese" of North America none of his "auxiliary bishops" can convene a council, but at the same time, as the Primate of an "autonomous" Church he also expects no input from the Patriarch of Antioch. He is neither answerable to a synod of other bishops equal to or even "below" him nor is he answerable to anyone "above" him. An entire autonomous Orthodox Church consisting of only one bishop is certainly an ecclesiastical oddity.

Since the elevation of new bishops requires the laying on of hands of three existing bishops where will the autonomous Antiochian Church in America turn to for the required other two bishops for future elevations? Indeed, if there is only one Antiochian "super-diocese" and hence only one Antiochian bishop in North America (all the other bishops being merely auxiliary, and thus not functioning as equal members of a synod of bishops) who will convene the synod when Metropolitan Phillip retires or departs this life?

The best possible response to all of this is to pray for Metropolitan Phillip and for all those who are being affected by any of the recent developments. Some may, and will, express their opinions. Some will call for action. That is natural aecidnd may turn out to be a good thing, but we must remember the power of prayer.
All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
I was just thinking that today. I really don't like these developments I'm seeing come from him and it makes me wonder if we are pushing for administrative Orthodox unity in America too fast. Meaning, what if we end up with someone like him (but at least he would be answerable to a synod)? I think the best advice that was given earlier is to pray for him. Perhaps, he will repent and/or step down.

In Christ,
Andrew
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
27
Points
38
Age
40
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Johnstown
Don't worry, I doubt there's a single bishop outside of AOCA that thinks Met. Philip's model is an attractive one for Orthodox unity.
 

88Devin12

Protokentarchos
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
5,182
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
GOA - Metropolis of Denver
Metropolitan Philip himself doesn't want administrative unity yet, citing worse problems in the GOA and OCA... ... ...

I'm so glad his own Bishops disagree with him on this issue.
 

scamandrius

Merarches
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
9,407
Reaction score
13
Points
38
Location
Omaha
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Denver
Andrew21091 said:
Ortho_cat said:
All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
Nobody will.
Individual parishes, though, may start "voting" with their pocket books and lessen their "contributions" to Englewood.
 

Ortho_cat

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
5,392
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
40
Location
Wichita, KS
scamandrius said:
Andrew21091 said:
Ortho_cat said:
All of the bishops of the AOCA should get together and decide to leave the AOCA and switch over to another Jurisdiction and leave Mp Phillip all by himself!
Nobody will.
Individual parishes, though, may start "voting" with their pocket books and lessen their "contributions" to Englewood.
But doesn't the parish have to have permission from the bishop to move jurisdictions?
 

mattymoo

Jr. Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
50
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Iconodule said:
Don't worry, I doubt there's a single bishop outside of AOCA that thinks Met. Philip's model is an attractive one for Orthodox unity.
I think the fact that no one has yet made a reply stating their support/defense of Metropolitan Phillip's actions reveals a lot too.

The interview of Metropolitan Phillip that was recently done on Ancient Faith Radio gives some good insight into the thought processes the Metropolitan is using in regards to all of the recent changes in AOCA. http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/illuminedheart/metropolitan_philip_saliba_-_on_the_record I was very surprised by a lot of what I heard.
 

Ortho_cat

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
5,392
Reaction score
1
Points
0
Age
40
Location
Wichita, KS
Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?
 

Iconodule

Hoplitarches
Joined
Jan 2, 2010
Messages
16,486
Reaction score
27
Points
38
Age
40
Location
PA, USA
Faith
Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction
Patriarchate of Johnstown
Ortho_cat said:
Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?
"The Archdiocese- c'est moi!"
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,974
Reaction score
191
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Ortho_cat said:
Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?
I am in the Midwest, and I know people in the Northwest, and none of us think the attempted translation of Bp. Mark was "for the well-being of the archdiocese."  We think it the OCA's gain.
 

mattymoo

Jr. Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
50
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Iconodule said:
Ortho_cat said:
Mp. Phillip: "If I transfer a bishop from one diocese to another, I will do that not out of vindictiveness, God forbid. I will transfer him for the well-being of this archdiocese."

Does anyone think that this recent transfer and firing was done "for the well-being of the archdiocese"?
"The Archdiocese- c'est moi!"
Very interesting quotation.
 
Top