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Any Eastern Orthodox convert to Oriental Orthodoxy?

Volnutt

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Porter ODoran said:
Volnutt said:
Hawkeye said:
Tzimis said:
So than we can put this argument to rest. The person "saint" is a spirit. The saints exist and they are spirit until until the resurrection.  When they redeem there body's
There are no human persons without human bodies. That the saints can be said to be elsewhere – if such a thing can indeed be said – does not mean that they are no longer embodied here, that they do not tangibly exist before our eyes even beyond the point of death. When their flesh and bone has dissipated and we can no longer readily locate them, still their persistence in our own reality does not cease. The saints rest in their bodies even as they greet one another in the Bosom of Abraham. The resurrection of the dead will return them to their proper state, as the Lord had fashioned them in the beginning, and will make them greater still.
Interesting way to look at things. I wonder if it could be said to be occurring in a way similar to Christ's Body being everywhere at once in the Eucharist (though obviously not in the same way since the bodies of the Saints are not resurrected bodies yet (from our temporal point of view).
I don't know if the Presence in the Gifts is a factor of Christ's resurrection.
Yeah, maybe.
 

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Father Peter said:
If I may add a little, since my name was mentioned...

I am 100% committed to mission. I want to see the UK experience an Orthodox renewal and revival. I am excited to be a priest of the Coptic Orthodox Church at this time, because I believe we are on the edge of a great move of God.

I am well aware of all the problems within the Coptic Orthodox Church, more than most lay people. But these are the problems of life and not death. I enjoy worshipping and serving in communities that have many young people and children, and now the Coptic Orthodox Church is starting to ordain and consecrate Western born, or Western brought up, young men as priests and even bishops. And many of these young men are serious, spiritual and patristically minded. Some of them have been my friends for 10 or 15 years.

I believe that the Coptic Orthodox spiritual tradition is accessible to Western people - including our own youth, but there is a need for our worship to be presented in the Western languages as a matter of course. This does not preclude some Coptic or Arabic, but the majority needs to be in the local Western languages.

There is also a need for the chant to be done more slowly, prayerfully and reverently, and again in a majority Western language. I often have people come up to me when I have been doing some locum priesting work, and say that my celebration in English was the first time they had understood the Liturgy properly. That can't be good for mission, or for the care of converts, or mixed marriages, or our youth and children.

When chant is done badly it is ugly, but that would be the case anywhere. It does not need to be done in that way. I pray the Midnight Praises most Saturdays in the smaller Coptic Orthodox Church I serve as part of a team over several congregations, and there might be 10 of us. We pray antiphonally in English and Arabic only, and it feels to me just like members of a Christian family praying and praising together. I could easily imagine other British people joining our worship.

Of course there is a cultural component to everything we do, but I don't have a problem with the liturgical culture, or even the chant done attractively in (mostly) English. The social culture is what it is. We have to be generous while also being aware that some aspects of the social culture are not essentially Christian, and that there are other social cultures present in a mixed community.

The place where I pray celebrates its first anniversary in the building we now call home. And we are determined to be outward looking and service and mission oriented from the beginning. We have a treasure of prayer and spirituality that is Good News. As long as we present this treasure in the local languages, and with care and reverence, then I believe it has great scope as a missionary message. I hope to start an open Study Group soon, and will be beginning a series of open illustrated Lectures on our faith this month. We have lots of project ideas we are working on and I a very excited. God is at work.

Of course I do know fully Arabic congregations, who are not able to think in such a way yet. But the very presence of so many young people speaking English as their first language, and considering the UK as their home, means that we are now increasingly required to think in a different way.

I have had to consider where my service and future belongs several times in my life. But now, as a priest of Anba Misael in the Diocese of the Midlands, I believe I have found a lasting home where I hope to serve all those days that God grants me.
Hi Abouna Peter,

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to address this post, and get this thread back on topic. I have been doing a lot of thinking, and have become more and more familiar with Coptic chanting, and tend to agree with you. I do think the Coptic liturgy, prayer services and chanting can be translated well in to English, and when performed well with reverence can be beautiful. I am still (currently) a member of the Greek Orthodox church and they are struggling with some lay chanters at the Monastery i go to... all i can say is that Holy Week was difficult due to the poor quality of the Byzantine chant. It was embarassing it was so bad. So that just goes to show that even something so refined and grand as Byzantine chant, if not done well, is terrible.

I also see many great signs of evangelisation in the Coptic Orthodox church. I think there is something perculiar to the Coptic church, probably as a result of their history of martyrdom, that gives the Coptic people a special ability to be good evangelists. By the way, have you seen this article?

https://www.copticsolidarity.org/2018/03/31/the-americanization-of-an-ancient-faith/
 

Alpha60

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NJC said:
mikeforjesus said:
Will you be received without chrismation ?
No, i would be required to be Chrismated, which is the only catch. Abouna has stated he doesn't agree with it but that is how it is at the moment. For the next few weeks i'll go to the Coptic church exclusively and see how i feel in my heart about this. If i feel at peace, then i will be Chrismated. This is the advice of my spiritual father from the Greek Orthodox Monastery.
That sounds odd, given the agreement between the Coptic and Greek Patriarchates of Alexandria.  I am sure the Syriac Orthodox would receice you by confession, at least, based on my experiences.  The Coptic Church likes to rebaptize Catholics and others who would merely be chrismated elsewhere, in that respect they are a bit strict. 
 

Iconodule

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Tzimis said:
Do you realize I've been orthodox over countless generation's.  I dont need to read a book because i lived it.
Vlad Dracul, is that you?

"I have crossed oceans of time to post here."
 

Alpha60

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Iconodule said:
Tzimis said:
Do you realize I've been orthodox over countless generation's.  I dont need to read a book because i lived it.
Vlad Dracul, is that you?

"I have crossed oceans of time to post here."
My pulse quickens whenever I am blessed to behold the exquisite beauty of your unimpeachable and imperishable wit!  ;D 

Truly you are The Trisagion to my Mor Ephrem, to the extent I have a Mor Ephrem, which, alas, is exceedingly limited.  :-[

——

(Btw on a more serious note I am praying for TheTrisagion and AntoniousNikolaus as they havent been around lately, and I am worried for them).
 

Iconodule

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You're scaring me, dude. But OK.
 

jah777

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Mor Ephrem said:
Alpo said:
NJC said:
I believe both church's can lead a man to God, but that some people are better suited to particular jurisdictions/churches depending on their nature.
That's a legitimate opinion and whatever suits you but that hardly corresponds to neither EO or OO ecclesiology.
Even Elder Joseph the Hesychast found himself coming to accept a similar position which didn't neatly correspond to textbook ecclesiology but which was nevertheless revealed to him to be true. 

Stuff happens.
What exactly are you claiming about Elder Joseph's change in position? 
 

noahzarc1

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NJC said:
Father Peter said:
If I may add a little, since my name was mentioned...

I am 100% committed to mission. I want to see the UK experience an Orthodox renewal and revival. I am excited to be a priest of the Coptic Orthodox Church at this time, because I believe we are on the edge of a great move of God.

I am well aware of all the problems within the Coptic Orthodox Church, more than most lay people. But these are the problems of life and not death. I enjoy worshipping and serving in communities that have many young people and children, and now the Coptic Orthodox Church is starting to ordain and consecrate Western born, or Western brought up, young men as priests and even bishops. And many of these young men are serious, spiritual and patristically minded. Some of them have been my friends for 10 or 15 years.

I believe that the Coptic Orthodox spiritual tradition is accessible to Western people - including our own youth, but there is a need for our worship to be presented in the Western languages as a matter of course. This does not preclude some Coptic or Arabic, but the majority needs to be in the local Western languages.

There is also a need for the chant to be done more slowly, prayerfully and reverently, and again in a majority Western language. I often have people come up to me when I have been doing some locum priesting work, and say that my celebration in English was the first time they had understood the Liturgy properly. That can't be good for mission, or for the care of converts, or mixed marriages, or our youth and children.

When chant is done badly it is ugly, but that would be the case anywhere. It does not need to be done in that way. I pray the Midnight Praises most Saturdays in the smaller Coptic Orthodox Church I serve as part of a team over several congregations, and there might be 10 of us. We pray antiphonally in English and Arabic only, and it feels to me just like members of a Christian family praying and praising together. I could easily imagine other British people joining our worship.

Of course there is a cultural component to everything we do, but I don't have a problem with the liturgical culture, or even the chant done attractively in (mostly) English. The social culture is what it is. We have to be generous while also being aware that some aspects of the social culture are not essentially Christian, and that there are other social cultures present in a mixed community.

The place where I pray celebrates its first anniversary in the building we now call home. And we are determined to be outward looking and service and mission oriented from the beginning. We have a treasure of prayer and spirituality that is Good News. As long as we present this treasure in the local languages, and with care and reverence, then I believe it has great scope as a missionary message. I hope to start an open Study Group soon, and will be beginning a series of open illustrated Lectures on our faith this month. We have lots of project ideas we are working on and I a very excited. God is at work.

Of course I do know fully Arabic congregations, who are not able to think in such a way yet. But the very presence of so many young people speaking English as their first language, and considering the UK as their home, means that we are now increasingly required to think in a different way.

I have had to consider where my service and future belongs several times in my life. But now, as a priest of Anba Misael in the Diocese of the Midlands, I believe I have found a lasting home where I hope to serve all those days that God grants me.
Hi Abouna Peter,

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to address this post, and get this thread back on topic. I have been doing a lot of thinking, and have become more and more familiar with Coptic chanting, and tend to agree with you. I do think the Coptic liturgy, prayer services and chanting can be translated well in to English, and when performed well with reverence can be beautiful. I am still (currently) a member of the Greek Orthodox church and they are struggling with some lay chanters at the Monastery i go to... all i can say is that Holy Week was difficult due to the poor quality of the Byzantine chant. It was embarassing it was so bad. So that just goes to show that even something so refined and grand as Byzantine chant, if not done well, is terrible.

I also see many great signs of evangelisation in the Coptic Orthodox church. I think there is something perculiar to the Coptic church, probably as a result of their history of martyrdom, that gives the Coptic people a special ability to be good evangelists. By the way, have you seen this article?

https://www.copticsolidarity.org/2018/03/31/the-americanization-of-an-ancient-faith/
I was following this thread this spring and never read anything new. I looked for it tonight. Do you have any updates about your journey?
 

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noahzarc1 said:
NJC said:
Father Peter said:
If I may add a little, since my name was mentioned...

I am 100% committed to mission. I want to see the UK experience an Orthodox renewal and revival. I am excited to be a priest of the Coptic Orthodox Church at this time, because I believe we are on the edge of a great move of God.

I am well aware of all the problems within the Coptic Orthodox Church, more than most lay people. But these are the problems of life and not death. I enjoy worshipping and serving in communities that have many young people and children, and now the Coptic Orthodox Church is starting to ordain and consecrate Western born, or Western brought up, young men as priests and even bishops. And many of these young men are serious, spiritual and patristically minded. Some of them have been my friends for 10 or 15 years.

I believe that the Coptic Orthodox spiritual tradition is accessible to Western people - including our own youth, but there is a need for our worship to be presented in the Western languages as a matter of course. This does not preclude some Coptic or Arabic, but the majority needs to be in the local Western languages.

There is also a need for the chant to be done more slowly, prayerfully and reverently, and again in a majority Western language. I often have people come up to me when I have been doing some locum priesting work, and say that my celebration in English was the first time they had understood the Liturgy properly. That can't be good for mission, or for the care of converts, or mixed marriages, or our youth and children.

When chant is done badly it is ugly, but that would be the case anywhere. It does not need to be done in that way. I pray the Midnight Praises most Saturdays in the smaller Coptic Orthodox Church I serve as part of a team over several congregations, and there might be 10 of us. We pray antiphonally in English and Arabic only, and it feels to me just like members of a Christian family praying and praising together. I could easily imagine other British people joining our worship.

Of course there is a cultural component to everything we do, but I don't have a problem with the liturgical culture, or even the chant done attractively in (mostly) English. The social culture is what it is. We have to be generous while also being aware that some aspects of the social culture are not essentially Christian, and that there are other social cultures present in a mixed community.

The place where I pray celebrates its first anniversary in the building we now call home. And we are determined to be outward looking and service and mission oriented from the beginning. We have a treasure of prayer and spirituality that is Good News. As long as we present this treasure in the local languages, and with care and reverence, then I believe it has great scope as a missionary message. I hope to start an open Study Group soon, and will be beginning a series of open illustrated Lectures on our faith this month. We have lots of project ideas we are working on and I a very excited. God is at work.

Of course I do know fully Arabic congregations, who are not able to think in such a way yet. But the very presence of so many young people speaking English as their first language, and considering the UK as their home, means that we are now increasingly required to think in a different way.

I have had to consider where my service and future belongs several times in my life. But now, as a priest of Anba Misael in the Diocese of the Midlands, I believe I have found a lasting home where I hope to serve all those days that God grants me.
Hi Abouna Peter,

Sorry for the late reply. I wanted to address this post, and get this thread back on topic. I have been doing a lot of thinking, and have become more and more familiar with Coptic chanting, and tend to agree with you. I do think the Coptic liturgy, prayer services and chanting can be translated well in to English, and when performed well with reverence can be beautiful. I am still (currently) a member of the Greek Orthodox church and they are struggling with some lay chanters at the Monastery i go to... all i can say is that Holy Week was difficult due to the poor quality of the Byzantine chant. It was embarassing it was so bad. So that just goes to show that even something so refined and grand as Byzantine chant, if not done well, is terrible.

I also see many great signs of evangelisation in the Coptic Orthodox church. I think there is something perculiar to the Coptic church, probably as a result of their history of martyrdom, that gives the Coptic people a special ability to be good evangelists. By the way, have you seen this article?

https://www.copticsolidarity.org/2018/03/31/the-americanization-of-an-ancient-faith/
I was following this thread this spring and never read anything new. I looked for it tonight. Do you have any updates about your journey?
Yes, i was Confirmed in to the Coptic Orthodox Church. I still visit the Greek Orthodox monastery i used to attend, and they understandably do not agree with my decision. I have even had some local Greek Orthodox priests tell me it is in an insult to use the word "Orthodox" to describe Copts. So it has not been without it's trials. Your prayers would be appreciated!

NJC
 

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NJC said:
I have even had some local Greek Orthodox priests tell me it is in an insult to use the word "Orthodox" to describe Copts. So it has not been without it's trials. Your prayers would be appreciated!

NJC
Tell them that if things keep going the way they have been, Greeks and Russians will be saying that about one another in a few years, so why should you care what they think?
 

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Alpha60 said:
My pulse quickens whenever I am blessed to behold the exquisite beauty of your unimpeachable and imperishable wit!  ;D
Impeccable pectorals on this specimen of specimens!
 

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NJC,
Prayers in your journey. Reading up on your Journey !
Felt it appropriate to share . As a Cradle Orthodox Christian from Malankara (Indian) who immigrated to Canada years back, in the absence of our Parish or an OO parish in the City, we attended the Eastern Orthodox OCA parish confessed my sins and had communion . In time approached our own Bishop about forming our own parish and one of my first questions was whether it was wrong to attend the EO parish. He was sympathetic and told if ever I felt as  an outsider in the OCA parish to leave right away. I didn't  feel it and in fact in one of the yearly parish sessions , someone asked diplomatically why we were given communion while RC and other Catechumens were not given communion. The OCA priest very clearly identified that he wanted to give communion ,but had already checked with his own Bishop from the day we came if it is acceptable.
In time , our own parish evolved and we have a regular parish , but felt distant the few times on visiting after the OCA parish afterwards and found also none from the OCA comes to attend our service even when invited and told it is in English. Vice versa, none from our Parish wished to go  or visit  the OCA Parish when I ask . 
Have come to accept it ,but always pray that we have means to meet outside of the Parish and what as individuals  we can do to help our Children and ourselves see the beauty within our own Traditions , Respect each other's Traditions and Love truly without judgement
 

Iconodule

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geovar said:
NJC,
Prayers in your journey. Reading up on your Journey !
Felt it appropriate to share . As a Cradle Orthodox Christian from Malankara (Indian) who immigrated to Canada years back, in the absence of our Parish or an OO parish in the City, we attended the Eastern Orthodox OCA parish confessed my sins and had communion . In time approached our own Bishop about forming our own parish and one of my first questions was whether it was wrong to attend the EO parish. He was sympathetic and told if ever I felt as  an outsider in the OCA parish to leave right away. I didn't  feel it and in fact in one of the yearly parish sessions , someone asked diplomatically why we were given communion while RC and other Catechumens were not given communion. The OCA priest very clearly identified that he wanted to give communion ,but had already checked with his own Bishop from the day we came if it is acceptable.
In time , our own parish evolved and we have a regular parish , but felt distant the few times on visiting after the OCA parish afterwards and found also none from the OCA comes to attend our service even when invited and told it is in English. Vice versa, none from our Parish wished to go  or visit  the OCA Parish when I ask . 
Have come to accept it ,but always pray that we have means to meet outside of the Parish and what as individuals  we can do to help our Children and ourselves see the beauty within our own Traditions , Respect each other's Traditions and Love truly without judgement
Thanks for telling of your experience. So, to be clear, the OCA bishop had given the priest permission to commune you?
 

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It seems OCA is the one EO Church open to doing this.  It has done so with many of the OO's.

In our area in the U.S., OCA took in an entire group of Eritreans, who immigrated during a period of fleeing persecution in their homeland, about two and a half decades ago.

I don't know if they were eventually required to be chrismated, but in the interim, the bishop took them on the basis that there was nowhere for them to attend church or to commune, thus, permission was given to participate.  They were a wonderful addition to that particular community.

--Sv.
 

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A few squirrely convert priests and the ROCOR/Ephraimites/Serbs generally aside, in my experience everyone communes Oriental Orthodox in the USA. We are fighting over semantics, not faith, why would anyone be barred?

In more recent history, Moscow's declared itself out of communion with Constantinople over Ukraine, and yet Moscow has told its faithful they can commune at the Russian monastery on Mount Athos. (A monastery very much under Constantinople :).) Most schisms aren't as absolute as those who proclaim say they are :).


Svetlana said:
It seems OCA is the one EO Church open to doing this.  It has done so with many of the OO's.

In our area in the U.S., OCA took in an entire group of Eritreans, who immigrated during a period of fleeing persecution in their homeland, about two and a half decades ago.

I don't know if they were eventually required to be chrismated, but in the interim, the bishop took them on the basis that there was nowhere for them to attend church or to commune, thus, permission was given to participate.  They were a wonderful addition to that particular community.

--Sv.
 

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Father Peter said:
In the UK I know of both Antiochian and Greek priests who have communed Coptic Orthodox
I’ve heard of a ROCOR priest in Canada who (to my astonishment) communed the local Copts until the latter were able to obtain their own church.
 

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Poemen said:
Seraffa said:
Ego Emei.
y tho?
MY FORUM DISCLAIMER:"My presence here is in the charitable spirit of St. Ambrose of Milan, emulating his guidance to Widows, and is in no way, shape or form intended to distract or attract the opposite sex to obtain a particular relationship or a future spouse. Anything I do write publicly or privately may or may not reflect the summation of the Orthodox Christian Church's teachings - whether Eastern or Oriental. Any written questions and responses from myself are focused on both the topic and the nature of the matter at hand, uniquely combined with my own personal experience as both an Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Christian"

Hello Poemen. If you want my response in a nutshell, it can be summed up by rrading Archimandrite Sergius Bowyer's recent book (2017) "Aquiring the Mind of Christ."
 

Iconodule

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Seraffa said:
If you want my response in a nutshell, it can be summed up by rrading Archimandrite Sergius Bowyer's recent book (2017) "Aquiring the Mind of Christ."
In a nutshell... read this book. I like it.
 

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Father Peter said:
In the UK I know of both Antiochian and Greek priests who have communed Coptic Orthodox

Father ~ do you mean they are now priest in the Coptic Church ```
 

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kijabeboy03 said:
A few squirrely convert priests and the ROCOR/Ephraimites/Serbs generally aside, in my experience everyone communes Oriental Orthodox in the USA. We are fighting over semantics, not faith, why would anyone be barred?
Eh.... Nope. You'll find EO parishes that commune OO folks in absence of a parish of their own, but in general, I wouldn't make a claim like that. YMMV, but I really wouldn't say it's a blanket fact.

If anything, what the OO churches should be emphasizing is that even if there's not a local church of your own (say, you're an Ethiopian or Eritrean and the only local parish is Coptic or Armenian), you're absolutely welcome, and should be communing in those OO parishes and not, say, a local Greek or MP or Antiochian parish. I know of one local EO parish in my neck of the woods that has a pretty substantial number of Eritreans who attend and commune there. I'm certain most of them drive past, or likely live within ten minutes of at least one OO parish. And yet they go there... It goes both ways, communities could be more welcoming, but it seems to me the instinct isn't even there to seek out other OOs.
 

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I wonder why that is.
 

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I need to start prayers to St. Macarius the Great. (Also ready to get icon)
 

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About Antiochian and Greek priests, I mean that they are priests in their own Antiochian and Greek Churches, and they commune, repeatedly, those who are communicant members of the Coptic Orthodox Church.
 

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Eritreans or Ethiopians might choose to attend an EO church because sadly there has been Government interference in the church in both places, and there are and have been rival Synods etc. It is also the case that Ethiopia and Eritrea have been at war recently. And also that Ethiopia recently received autocephaly and there are some who have a problematic attitude towards the Coptic Orthodox Mother Church. Or you might be an Eritrean youth and not understand Arabic, or Armenian, or Malayalam, and prefer an EO church with English that you can understand.

Or other reasons.

I know EO who refuse to go to their own EO church, for various reasons also.
 

Volnutt

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Father Peter said:
Eritreans or Ethiopians might choose to attend an EO church because sadly there has been Government interference in the church in both places, and there are and have been rival Synods etc. It is also the case that Ethiopia and Eritrea have been at war recently. And also that Ethiopia recently received autocephaly and there are some who have a problematic attitude towards the Coptic Orthodox Mother Church. Or you might be an Eritrean youth and not understand Arabic, or Armenian, or Malayalam, and prefer an EO church with English that you can understand.

Or other reasons.

I know EO who refuse to go to their own EO church, for various reasons also.
Ah, ok. That makes sense.
 

Iconodule

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If the nearest Coptic Church were a little closer I would seriously consider going there owing to the current mess in my communion. On the other hand I think I’m too much of a baby for the 2+ hour liturgies.
 

Volnutt

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Well, I guess you can always take a break halfway through, go out to the Narthex and play on your phone. People who work retail spend longer than that on their feet.

I think the closest OO Church to me is in Seattle lol.
 

noahzarc1

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Iconodule said:
If the nearest Coptic Church were a little closer I would seriously consider going there owing to the current mess in my communion. On the other hand I think I’m too much of a baby for the 2+ hour liturgies.
They fly by. I get engrossed. I attend the 6:00 AM liturgy and before I know it is nearly 9:00 AM and we're being dismissed.
 

peterfarrington

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Most people aren't there for the whole length of the liturgy and especially not for the whole length of all the services on a Sunday morning. When I begin with the words O Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world hear us and have mercy upon us most people are still not there
 

Sethrak

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I started out for Badarak ~ Sunday last ~ the Armenian Church in Sacramento ~ just about 90 miles one way ~ I was almost there about 9 miles short ~ when the truck died ~ I was on the freeway ramp after asking directions ( new location ) had to call AAA to take the truck and myself home ~ it was as if the enemy was able to stop me ~ that close from my goal ```
 
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