Anyone got any beautiful picture of Western Rite Orthodox Churches?

Caelestinus

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Alpha60 said:
Of late, traditional Latin mass groups have been reviving the Rite of Lyon, which became extinct after 1969, like the Carmelite Rite.  Whereas one could argue about the merits of using RC monastic rites in the Orthodox Western Rite, the importation of the regional rites is a very good idea, since in many cases, only the Western Rite Orthodox are prepared to celebrate the traditional liturgy.
About the Rite of Lyon (it is not completly extinct):
http://theradtrad.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-lyonese-missal-part-i-ordinary-of.html



Several videos showing Holx mass according to the Carmelite Rite:
https://youtu.be/qckESIZ60Po

Western Rite Orthodox in Germany (ROCOR) celebrating Holy Mass according to the Cistercian Rite:


(there ist a description on the side, saying that this is during the Gloria)


(during the Offertory)


(within the Canon, infra actionem, note the Sanctus-candle (?) in the back and the there is no zucchetto on the priest's head)

The Salve Regina in the Cistercian way:
https://youtu.be/qckESIZ60Po
 

Alpha60

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Indeed, I was aware of the revival of the Lyonaise and Carmelite Rites.  The Cistercian Rite is unfamiliar to me, but exciting.  The Benedictines historically did not use their own missals, but did have their own Breviary widely regarded as superior to the Roman Breviary.

Thank you for sharing those lovely images and videos!
 

Alpha60

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LBK said:
Alpha60 said:
LBK said:
juliogb said:


This is a mosaic in the basilica of Notre Dame de Fourviere in Lyon, depicting the council of Ephesus.
Fail, in at least two ways.

They've spelled Theotokos wrong. The correct letter is a K, not an X. And why on earth is she wearing clerical cuffs and orarion? Yes, they are clerical cuffs, because they have crosses on them.  :eek: :p
Let’s just spend the whole Pentecost nitpicking at minor details of the iconography of churches that don’t belong to the Orthodox and/or are esteemed cultural treasures.
Esteemed cultural treasure? The original church may well be. Minor detail? Misspelling the Mother of God's title is not. Neither is misrepresenting her as holding clerical rank. Especially as this mosaic is not the work of a rustic iconographer in some isolated village, but a work which must have taken countless hours in planning and execution. Yet these errors are glaringly obvious. "Beauty" does not trump serious and sloppy errors like this.

Furthermore, this photograph was posted in a thread on WRO churches. Juliogb posted the picture, not me.  :mad: That said, I highly doubt it is a teaching of the RCC that the Mother of God has the privilege of clerical rank.
Indeed, but its not an WRO church, so there is no need to react.  Frankly I am surprised they even managed to misspell Theotokos; we are talking about 19th century France.  The typography on her name looks strange in general.

The RCC does have a deservedly bad reputation for errors in the veneration of the Theotokos.  Consider the strange RC-specific Marian Apparitions.  WRO exists in part to provide a Western Rite free from these errors, and the canonical Western Rite parishes in the Antiochian, ROCOR, and recently, a new one in the OCA in Canada, benefit from a close relationship to the Eastern Orthodox church and are unlikely to repeat the errors of 19th century Catholics.

Although to be frank, if we somehow obtained this church I would not be inclined to support redoing the ceiling to correct the error.  We’re talking about an error in a mosaic on a ceiling which most people won’t notice or can’t see.  The cost of the scaffolding alone to effect the repair would make it not worthwhile.
 

Caelestinus

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Alpha60 said:
The Benedictines historically did not use their own missals, but did have their own Breviary widely regarded as superior to the Roman Breviary.
With which reason? The Roman Cursus Psalmorum is the original and the Benedictine a variation of it.

Alpha60 said:
Thank you for sharing those lovely images and videos!
You are welcome!
 

Caelestinus

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Alpha60 said:
The Cistercian Rite is unfamiliar to me, but exciting. 
This Rite is very austere. In the 12th century Cistercian mass the dalmatic and the tunicella was not used by the levits, and the priest's chasuable was of wool, not of silk. Like the Dominican Rite it was in continous use until Vatican II. (but not as widespread, due to the adoption by choice of the Roman Rite since the 17th century).

 

Caelestinus

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ROCORWRVUK said:


Note the traditional Roman tonsure as sported by the Subdeacon!
This is the regular hair-dress in Western Christianity for choir-monks, friars, regular and secular clerics of all ranks (the shape of the tonsure may differ a little between the different orders). It's also called "tonsure of St. Peter". Lay-brothers have their heads completely shaved, called "tonsure of St. Paul", in Eastern Christianity this was the regular shape of the tonsure until it was given up it favour of the eremitic live style (let the hair grow).

Professed monks usually wear it in the traditional shape of a crown (corona), while secular clerics are required by to wear at least a bare spot on the back of the head. 



Therefore, tonsure is undoubtedly a part of the legacy of the authentic Orthodox West (a shibboleth for canonic WR-clergy and male monastics, like the Roman Canon, which has no Holy Ghost Epiclesis!?), or can you imagine a Benedictine monk with long hair?
 

LBK

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Alpha60 said:
Indeed, but its not an WRO church, so there is no need to react.  Frankly I am surprised they even managed to misspell Theotokos; we are talking about 19th century France.  The typography on her name looks strange in general.
Lack of due diligence. Both in misspelling Theotokos (which is a title of dogmatic importance), and in depicting her in orarion and clerical cuffs.

The RCC does have a deservedly bad reputation for errors in the veneration of the Theotokos.  Consider the strange RC-specific Marian Apparitions.  WRO exists in part to provide a Western Rite free from these errors, and the canonical Western Rite parishes in the Antiochian, ROCOR, and recently, a new one in the OCA in Canada, benefit from a close relationship to the Eastern Orthodox church and are unlikely to repeat the errors of 19th century Catholics.
Irrelevant and unnecessary commentary.

Although to be frank, if we somehow obtained this church I would not be inclined to support redoing the ceiling to correct the error.  We’re talking about an error in a mosaic on a ceiling which most people won’t notice or can’t see.  The cost of the scaffolding alone to effect the repair would make it not worthwhile.
The mosaic isn't on the ceiling. Not even close to the ceiling. Stop embarrassing yourself. ::)



Full-sized image: https://c8.alamy.com/compde/ry8exc/indoor-unserer-lieben-frau-von-fourviere-basilica-in-lyon-ry8exc.jpg



 

Alpha60

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LBK said:
Alpha60 said:
Indeed, but its not an WRO church, so there is no need to react.  Frankly I am surprised they even managed to misspell Theotokos; we are talking about 19th century France.  The typography on her name looks strange in general.
Lack of due diligence. Both in misspelling Theotokos (which is a title of dogmatic importance), and in depicting her in orarion and clerical cuffs.

The RCC does have a deservedly bad reputation for errors in the veneration of the Theotokos.  Consider the strange RC-specific Marian Apparitions.  WRO exists in part to provide a Western Rite free from these errors, and the canonical Western Rite parishes in the Antiochian, ROCOR, and recently, a new one in the OCA in Canada, benefit from a close relationship to the Eastern Orthodox church and are unlikely to repeat the errors of 19th century Catholics.
Irrelevant and unnecessary commentary.

Although to be frank, if we somehow obtained this church I would not be inclined to support redoing the ceiling to correct the error.  We’re talking about an error in a mosaic on a ceiling which most people won’t notice or can’t see.  The cost of the scaffolding alone to effect the repair would make it not worthwhile.
The mosaic isn't on the ceiling. Not even close to the ceiling. Stop embarrassing yourself. ::)



Full-sized image: https://c8.alamy.com/compde/ry8exc/indoor-unserer-lieben-frau-von-fourviere-basilica-in-lyon-ry8exc.jpg
Ah I confused it with some splendid decorations on the ceiling.  But thank you for posting this full picture.  The work is so stunningly beautiful, it takes my breath away; this is a classic example of Neo-Romanseque art from the High Romantic era, and the colours are exquisite.  This for me more than makes up for the technical errors of iconography contained therein, particularly since this is not an icon to be venerated (in the same way that the highly uncanonical Michaelangelo paintings in the Sistine Chapel are not icons and the idea of painting them over would be madness).  We just can’t expect decorative artwork in Western churches to conform to the same rules that govern what goes on an EO or OO iconostasis, or in the Solea of a Russian church, or the Bema and Altar of an Armenian church.  I think even within an Orthodox parish, there is room for a dichotomy between decoration and icons for veneration, although the best church interiors treat the two the same.
 

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Source, Flyers: http://orthodoxes-forum.de/viewtopic.php?f=98&t=3757&sid=cb9775e7d89b1456fd550fd2bde9f78c#p42223
 

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Heddal Stavkirke in Norway:




Originally built in the 12th century, just early enough to where it might plausibly have been Western Rite Orthodox according to my armchair expertise. It's been expanded and restored several times since then. Judging by their church buildings, the Vikings didn't become any less cool when they laid aside their pillaging to follow Christ.
 

Ainnir

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That is gorgeous.
 

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Dominika said:
Dominika,
One East-West ritual difference is the kneeling in liturgies. I have participated in kneeling on the floor, wood and marble, in EO services, but it lasts for longer times in RC churches. In 2008 I visited a well attended big wooden Polish RC village church and attended Sunday mass. The kneeling on the wood floor was prolonged. I looked around and people, including the elderly, appeared totally okay with this (not surprisingly, actually), which impressed me. Isn't it very painful for them? Or have they done this since childhood so that it doesn't bother them or feel particularly painful? After standing in long EO services, I can handle standing for a long time, but kneeling on the floor us a whole new level of pain.
 

Dominika

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I think also in Catholicism there are some services and moments with long kneeling, so.. I don' know maybe indeed it's just a question of getting/being used to it. If there are moments for kneeling, children behave as their parents and people around, so maybe if somebody in Orthodoxy or Catholicism fro his/her early mometns of life, and doesnt' ahve serious health problems, is not an issue.

I've never had particulat problems with kneeling, while I've had always problems with standing, so I sit a lot during services ;)
 

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Gorgeous church!

So the Vikings were cooler when they were into raping and murdering people?

platypus said:
Heddal Stavkirke in Norway:




Originally built in the 12th century, just early enough to where it might plausibly have been Western Rite Orthodox according to my armchair expertise. It's been expanded and restored several times since then. Judging by their church buildings, the Vikings didn't become any less cool when they laid aside their pillaging to follow Christ.
 

Dominika

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St Michael Orthodox Church in Whittier California - from their Facebook




 
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