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Apostol (Book of Epistles) in english used by Romanian parishes

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Hristos a înviat
I occasionally attend a Romanian parish in Toronto and while they gospel is usually done in English and Romanian, the Epistle is only read in Romanian. I asked the priest why and he said its because the only English translation he can find the follows the Romanian lectionary (i guess it is different than the Greek one) is by the Melkites. Hmmm, does anyone know what Romanian parishes use in the US and Canada for English Epistle readings?
 

ilyazhito

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Why not use the KJV New Testament? It is used by many Orthodox jurisdictions, including, ROCOR, the Antiochians, and, to some degree, the OCA.
 

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Hristos a înviat
I occasionally attend a Romanian parish in Toronto and while they gospel is usually done in English and Romanian, the Epistle is only read in Romanian. I asked the priest why and he said its because the only English translation he can find the follows the Romanian lectionary (i guess it is different than the Greek one) is by the Melkites. Hmmm, does anyone know what Romanian parishes use in the US and Canada for English Epistle readings?
Would using the Melkite Epistle Book be a problem? Or the Orthodox Study Bible?
 

kijabeboy03

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I don't think that's true, I assume they're part of the patriarchal Romanian Orthodox metropolia for North America? The original diocese - the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of [North] America - has a standard translation used throughout the diocese's parishes and churches. (I know from personal experience - it's not my favourite, but no matter where I go in the USA and Canada it's what's used in the Episcopate's communities!)

Hristos a înviat
I occasionally attend a Romanian parish in Toronto and while they gospel is usually done in English and Romanian, the Epistle is only read in Romanian. I asked the priest why and he said its because the only English translation he can find the follows the Romanian lectionary (i guess it is different than the Greek one) is by the Melkites. Hmmm, does anyone know what Romanian parishes use in the US and Canada for English Epistle readings?
 
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The parish is looking for a proper Apostol book with the psalm and alleluia versese
 

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I went to a liturgy this past weekend at the Romanian church here in town. I hadn't been to a Romanian service before and wanted to check it out. The entire thing was in Romanian, absolutely no English used whatsoever, and none of the congregation even seemed to speak English conversationally. A couple people came over to chat, in Romanian, and when I responded that I didn't understand, they walked away. The small bookstand with literature for sale by the office had only Romanian-language material. I can now say I've been there and done that, but it was disappointing from my perspective. Even the other ethnic churches who don't hold English or bilingual liturgies at least repeat the Our Father, Creed, responses, and/or sermon in English. It's good that you've found a parish that at least makes an effort to acknowledge where we are. How responsive they might be is another question.
 

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I went to a liturgy this past weekend at the Romanian church here in town. I hadn't been to a Romanian service before and wanted to check it out. The entire thing was in Romanian, absolutely no English used whatsoever, and none of the congregation even seemed to speak English conversationally. A couple people came over to chat, in Romanian, and when I responded that I didn't understand, they walked away. The small bookstand with literature for sale by the office had only Romanian-language material. I can now say I've been there and done that, but it was disappointing from my perspective. Even the other ethnic churches who don't hold English or bilingual liturgies at least repeat the Our Father, Creed, responses, and/or sermon in English. It's good that you've found a parish that at least makes an effort to acknowledge where we are. How responsive they might be is another question.
The Romanians in Germany are ironically enough the ones with the most converts save for the Russians, are usually open to doing things in German, keep the patronage of atleast one local pre-schism saint in their parishes and are overall very friendly and wholesome people. 😁
 

RaphaCam

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I went to a liturgy this past weekend at the Romanian church here in town. I hadn't been to a Romanian service before and wanted to check it out. The entire thing was in Romanian, absolutely no English used whatsoever, and none of the congregation even seemed to speak English conversationally. A couple people came over to chat, in Romanian, and when I responded that I didn't understand, they walked away. The small bookstand with literature for sale by the office had only Romanian-language material. I can now say I've been there and done that, but it was disappointing from my perspective. Even the other ethnic churches who don't hold English or bilingual liturgies at least repeat the Our Father, Creed, responses, and/or sermon in English. It's good that you've found a parish that at least makes an effort to acknowledge where we are. How responsive they might be is another question.
Would you guess it to be a fully first-generation church? I certainly hope so. I sympathise with first-generation churches that give preference to the original language, but they could indeed put a couple of bilingual prayers, some books, a bilingual liturgical booklet if possible... Both in order to facilitate the inquirers (or even other Orthodox Christians) coming in right now and to avoid creating a culture that will make future integration difficult even for insiders.
 

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Would you guess it to be a fully first-generation church? I certainly hope so. I sympathise with first-generation churches that give preference to the original language, but they could indeed put a couple of bilingual prayers, some books, a bilingual liturgical booklet if possible... Both in order to facilitate the inquirers (or even other Orthodox Christians) coming in right now and to avoid creating a culture that will make future integration difficult even for insiders.
I believe everyone in attendance was an immigrant, yes, but this church opened in 1916 - it still has a 1916-2016 centenary banner hanging on the outside of the building - so I'm skeptical of their logic. I have a Romanian-born uncle who came to Canada in the mid-1980s but who goes to church (when he does) at one of the two Serbian parishes in town, won't go to this one, and won't say why. There's a Romanian social club in an adjacent building. It's basically letting them operate as an insular community without regard for outsiders. That was definitely the most awkward and unwelcome I've ever felt in an Orthodox church.
 

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The Romanians in Germany are ironically enough the ones with the most converts save for the Russians, are usually open to doing things in German, keep the patronage of atleast one local pre-schism saint in their parishes and are overall very friendly and wholesome people. 😁
Case in point:

 

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I've once attended a Romanian parish in Spain being at holidays- actually it's in quite big Roman Catholic chapel. It's clearly quite new and for 1st generation, new immigrants, so everything was in Romanian, but I didn't feel strange. Maybe because it was just holidays and wanted just to attend an Orthodox Liturgy.
 

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In many official Romanian orthodox publications a poin is made that the Orthodox Church, unlike the Catholics or Protestants, is not trying to convert people, just minister to those it has. So, with older generations, this. was the attitude. Younger clergy would be probably less likely to say it, but it doesn’t follow that they give much thought to whether the Canadians should become orthodox or not.
 

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In many official Romanian orthodox publications a poin is made that the Orthodox Church, unlike the Catholics or Protestants, is not trying to convert people, just minister to those it has.
Do these publications specify which Moldovan village St. Andrew the Apostle was born in? :rolleyes:

How do you think this idea developped?
 

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I have my guesses, however many of them appear verbatim in Staniloae ( Orthodoxy and Romanian-ness) their most recent iteration is rooted in nationalism but they probably predate nationalism at least in a more amorphous way. At some point most orthodox were in no position to do proselytism so they saw the Catholics and the Protestants do it and they had to explain the situation somehow.
However there are exceptions. In both Moldova and Wallachia during the Middle Ages and after there is documentation of RC being converted to orthodoxy by force.
 

kijabeboy03

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There are all sorts eh? Sounds like the Armenians in...well, everywhere haha. I visited a friendly, dying little Armenian Orthodox parish off and on for years, but never once in all the discussions of the state of the local Armenian Orthodox community and its future was there any mention of the vernacular, reaching out to people of mixed Armenian background who hadn't retained the language, et cetera. And on the flip side I've heard the Armenian Orthodox parishes in the USA are more flexible about such things, it really just depends on the local clergy and people I guess...

I went to a liturgy this past weekend at the Romanian church here in town. I hadn't been to a Romanian service before and wanted to check it out. The entire thing was in Romanian, absolutely no English used whatsoever, and none of the congregation even seemed to speak English conversationally. A couple people came over to chat, in Romanian, and when I responded that I didn't understand, they walked away. The small bookstand with literature for sale by the office had only Romanian-language material. I can now say I've been there and done that, but it was disappointing from my perspective. Even the other ethnic churches who don't hold English or bilingual liturgies at least repeat the Our Father, Creed, responses, and/or sermon in English. It's good that you've found a parish that at least makes an effort to acknowledge where we are. How responsive they might be is another question.
 

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I believe everyone in attendance was an immigrant, yes, but this church opened in 1916 - it still has a 1916-2016 centenary banner hanging on the outside of the building - so I'm skeptical of their logic. I have a Romanian-born uncle who came to Canada in the mid-1980s but who goes to church (when he does) at one of the two Serbian parishes in town, won't go to this one, and won't say why. There's a Romanian social club in an adjacent building. It's basically letting them operate as an insular community without regard for outsiders. That was definitely the most awkward and unwelcome I've ever felt in an Orthodox church.
I have seen a Romanian church attached to a social club in a major metropolitan area of the United States, calling itself ‘Casă Romăna și capela’, Romanian House & Chapel. Chauvinism is a part of some national cultures (maybe most) but in particular Romanian who form cultural associations with a religious department are expressing their lack of interest in reaching out beyond their culture toward Orthodoxy in general.

Over a century ago many Romanian emigres came to America to work industrial jobs with the saying ‘Mil și drum’ on their lips. It means ‘a thousand (dollars) and the road‘, announcing their intentions of earning a nest egg and repatriating to Romania. Many did not hit the road home but the style of insular, non-assimilating thinking stuck. I knew a Romanian priest who has been here for decades and didn’t own a ryassa (exorasson). I asked him why didn’t he get one tailored here and he said he wasn’t able to get to Romania to purchase one. Like they can’t be gotten here in the States.

I know Russians who disdain the OCA as a bogus imitation of Orthodoxy and aver that one can only be Orthodox, practice the faith, within Russia. This is the kind of heresy that comes of deep ignorance and lack of personal conviction.

There are many Greek Americans who insist that worship must be done in Greek, even though they don’t speak it. I heard a recorded Byzantine chant lesson by a Greek bishop who derided attempts to chant in English as suboptimal, as ‘it sure sounds a lot better in Greek’, demonstrating his point by singing much worse in English.

Nationalism and chauvinism is rife within Orthodoxy-in-diaspora. It seems to be largely due to poor cultural education. But sometimes it’s a reaction to alienation from the host society. Much church life outside the ancestral homeland is seen as cultural preservation.
 
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While John Bunyan’s: Pilgrim’s Progress may be theologically uneven, it has profundity. Around the same time elsewhere, people with the right faith, in principle, were fanatically dissenting over which fingers to use for the sign of the cross. Meanwhile church & state authorities inflicted extreme violence on the poor devils who were fixated on the finger issues over the sign of the cross.
 

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I reacted "wow" actually only because of epitrachelion being in fact Romanian flag, the rest is not surprsing me at all.
They have become popular within the last 4years or so. It’s not just an isolated incident. There is in a way a more cartoonish and sometimes aggressive nationalism within the BOR than what I remember in the ‘90’s
 
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While John Bunyan’s: Pilgrim’s Progress may be theologically uneven, it has profundity. Around the same time elsewhere, people with the right faith, in principle, were fanatically dissenting over which fingers to use for the sign of the cross. Meanwhile church & state authorities inflicted extreme violence on the poor devils who were fixated on the finger issues over the sign of the cross.
No one has ever been martyred over the Pilgrim's Progress.
 

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Well, no one seems to be able to give me an answer on the original Apostol question (even the Episcopate office!) Ha They say there is nothing standard. Sad
 

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Well, no one seems to be able to give me an answer on the original Apostol question (even the Episcopate office!) Ha They say there is nothing standard. Sad
This is what gets me, though: in response to the question, why don't they find something standard and start using it. You asked for it. There's demand in "ethnic" parishes across North America for English services, English service books and literature, etc. They can hold bi-lingual liturgies/vespers/etc., or serve separate English liturgies/vepers/etc., and they can easily have some English-language service books and faith literature on-site. There's no reason why they don't other than laziness and a reactionary mentality. I have an acquaintance who moved to Ottawa and went to the ROCOR church there. He told me the priest is friendly and welcoming but "made it clear" (his words) that the church is there to minister to the Russian population. I'm also sick of the response from laity of "well, go elsewhere where there is English". No, converts and English-speakers shouldn't be ghettoized to select parishes or have to "make do" with services they can't understand.
 

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This is what gets me, though: in response to the question, why don't they find something standard and start using it. You asked for it. There's demand in "ethnic" parishes across North America for English services, English service books and literature, etc. They can hold bi-lingual liturgies/vespers/etc., or serve separate English liturgies/vepers/etc., and they can easily have some English-language service books and faith literature on-site. There's no reason why they don't other than laziness and a reactionary mentality. I have an acquaintance who moved to Ottawa and went to the ROCOR church there. He told me the priest is friendly and welcoming but "made it clear" (his words) that the church is there to minister to the Russian population. I'm also sick of the response from laity of "well, go elsewhere where there is English". No, converts and English-speakers shouldn't be ghettoized to select parishes or have to "make do" with services they can't understand.
How shutoff are Christian communities in Canada in general?

Removed inappropriate slang term for a country. This would have been fine in the Politics section, but not here.

Pravoslavbob, Section Moderator.
 
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Saxon

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How shutoff are Christian communities in Canada in general?
Pretty shut-off outside of the OCA and the Antiochians, and we don't have many of either in comparison to the number of Greek, Ukrainian, Serbian, and even Russian parishes. Even the OCA cathedral in Toronto is predominantly Russian-speaking. There's actually been some regression locally - the new ROCOR priest no longer serves any of the liturgy in English; one of the two Greek churches in my city got a new priest last year - right off the boat from Greece, who doesn't speak English; even my Ukrainian church has begun cancelling the bi-monthly English liturgies we're supposed to be holding and also permanently cancelled an English-language akathist we had begun holding earlier this year.

It's particularly infuriating as, outside of the odd babushka or yiayia, no one attending these churches in Canada doesn't understand English. There's no reason to be doing this other than to keep the church as a social club. As FULK NERA mentioned, the Romanian church I went to is similarly attached to a building called the "Casă Romăna" ("Romanian House"), which is a social club.
 
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Pretty shut-off outside of the OCA and the Antiochians, and we don't have many of either in comparison to the number of Greek, Ukrainian, Serbian, and even Russian parishes. Even the OCA cathedral in Toronto is predominantly Russian-speaking. There's actually been some regression locally - the new ROCOR priest no longer serves any of the liturgy in English; one of the two Greek churches in my city got a new priest last year - right off the boat from Greece, who doesn't speak English; even my Ukrainian church has begun cancelling the bi-monthly English liturgies we're supposed to be holding and also permanently cancelled an English-language akathist we had begun holding earlier this year.

It's particularly infuriating as, outside of the odd babushka or yiayia, no one attending these churches in Canada doesn't understand English. There's no reason to be doing this other than to keep the church as a social club. As FULK NERA mentioned, the Romanian church I went to is similarly attached to a building called the "Casă Romăna" ("Romanian House"), which is a social club.
I mean not particularly related to the Orthodox Church, but also to other Christian communities.
 

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I mean not particularly related to the Orthodox Church, but also to other Christian communities.
No idea. There are some "ethnic" Catholic churches in larger cities but I've never been to one. And it's not really a phenomenon you see with Protestants.
 

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I reacted "wow" actually only because of epitrachelion being in fact Romanian flag, the rest is not surprsing me at all.
Didn’t notice. That’s repugnant. Where is the barf emoji?
 

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No idea. There are some "ethnic" Catholic churches in larger cities but I've never been to one. And it's not really a phenomenon you see with Protestants.
Well, I've seen in Spain Lutheran Swedish parish, in Great Britain Polish Roman Catholic parishes etc.
 

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That's such a pity :(

They have become popular within the last 4years or so. It’s not just an isolated incident. There is in a way a more cartoonish and sometimes aggressive nationalism within the BOR than what I remember in the ‘90’s
 

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What a strange name. Are you sure you're from Germany?

kijabeboy03: The inappropriate content has been dealt with- Pravoslavbob

How shutoff are Christian communities in Canada in general?
 
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Pravoslavbob

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This is what gets me, though: in response to the question, why don't they find something standard and start using it. You asked for it. There's demand in "ethnic" parishes across North America for English services, English service books and literature, etc. They can hold bi-lingual liturgies/vespers/etc., or serve separate English liturgies/vepers/etc., and they can easily have some English-language service books and faith literature on-site. There's no reason why they don't other than laziness and a reactionary mentality. I have an acquaintance who moved to Ottawa and went to the ROCOR church there. He told me the priest is friendly and welcoming but "made it clear" (his words) that the church is there to minister to the Russian population. I'm also sick of the response from laity of "well, go elsewhere where there is English". No, converts and English-speakers shouldn't be ghettoized to select parishes or have to "make do" with services they can't understand.
In Ottawa, this response was understandable, since the English-language OCA Cathedral (which also currently has a separate liturgy in Church Slavonic) and an English-language Carpatho-Russian parish are located quite close to the ROCOR church. The Antiochians in Ottawa also use lots of English.
 

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Pretty shut-off outside of the OCA and the Antiochians, and we don't have many of either in comparison to the number of Greek, Ukrainian, Serbian, and even Russian parishes. Even the OCA cathedral in Toronto is predominantly Russian-speaking. There's actually been some regression locally - the new ROCOR priest no longer serves any of the liturgy in English; one of the two Greek churches in my city got a new priest last year - right off the boat from Greece, who doesn't speak English; even my Ukrainian church has begun cancelling the bi-monthly English liturgies we're supposed to be holding and also permanently cancelled an English-language akathist we had begun holding earlier this year.

It's particularly infuriating as, outside of the odd babushka or yiayia, no one attending these churches in Canada doesn't understand English. There's no reason to be doing this other than to keep the church as a social club. As FULK NERA mentioned, the Romanian church I went to is similarly attached to a building called the "Casă Romăna" ("Romanian House"), which is a social club.
Of course I agree that blind ethnicity can be a real problem. And by and large, I would say that it is more of an issue in Canada than in the U.S. in most jurisdictions.

However, some clarification is needed here. You mention the "OCA cathedral" in Toronto. It is not a cathedral in the sense of being the seat of the bishop of the OCA Archdiocese of Canada. That is in Ottawa; the cathedral there is predominantly English-language with some French. (They have recently begun offering services in Church Slavonic to those who have requested it.) There is an OCA English-language mission at the University of Toronto (Holy Myrrhbearers Mission). St. John the Compassionate Mission (ironically enough, given the discussion on this thread, served by a Romanian priest) is close to downtown. The same priest who serves at St. John is the head of St. Zoticos Church in Scarborough in eastern Toronto, under the Carpatho-Russians. The very large Antiochian Church of St. George is located just north of Toronto, and it is more English-language than Arabic. That makes at least 4 Toronto-area churches that are English-language or predominantly so.

Since you mention that you find the situation "infuriating", I will not say "cry me a river", but I have to point out once again that lots of English-language options are available in southern Ontario, especially if one has a car or the means to get around. You just don't really seem to like some of them, and it seems that there are others you haven't really tried. Which is your business, of course. Or maybe you would like (or you need) better transportation. But it's not true that nothing in English is available in the region. In Hamilton, where you live, there are 2 English OCA missions. One is old calendar, and one is new calendar. (From what I've seen of your posting recently, you currently tolerate going to one of them occasionally.) There is an English Antiochian mission in Waterloo. Another one exists in St Catharines. There's a ROCOR mission in the Grimsby area. (I know you haven't had a fun time with local ROCOR people. I'm just saying that it's there.) Plus there are the aforementioned Toronto-area parishes.
 

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Of course I agree that blind ethnicity can be a real problem. And by and large, I would say that it is more of an issue in Canada than in the U.S. in most jurisdictions.

However, some clarification is needed here. You mention the "OCA cathedral" in Toronto. It is not a cathedral in the sense of being the seat of the bishop of the OCA Archdiocese of Canada. That is in Ottawa; the cathedral there is predominantly English-language with some French. (They have recently begun offering services in Church Slavonic to those who have requested it.) There is an OCA English-language mission at the University of Toronto (Holy Myrrhbearers Mission). St. John the Compassionate Mission (ironically enough, given the discussion on this thread, served by a Romanian priest) is close to downtown. The same priest who serves at St. John is the head of St. Zoticos Church in Scarborough in eastern Toronto, under the Carpatho-Russians. The very large Antiochian Church of St. George is located just north of Toronto, and it is more English-language than Arabic. That makes at least 4 Toronto-area churches that are English-language or predominantly so.
The Toronto OCA cathedral's hierarchical status has no bearing on the fact that it's Russophone church - at least as much so as the ROCOR cathedral on Henry St. I'm not commenting on other Toronto churches, but there's a supreme irony to the linguistic situation at Christ the Saviour.

Since you mention that you find the situation "infuriating", I will not say "cry me a river", but I have to point out once again that lots of English-language options are available in southern Ontario, especially if one has a car or the means to get around. You just don't really seem to like some of them, and it seems that there are others you haven't really tried. Which is your business, of course. Or maybe you would like (or you need) better transportation. But it's not true that nothing in English is available in the region. In Hamilton, where you live, there are 2 English OCA missions. One is old calendar, and one is new calendar. (From what I've seen of your posting recently, you currently tolerate going to one of them occasionally.) There is an English Antiochian mission in Waterloo. Another one exists in St Catharines. There's a ROCOR mission in the Grimsby area. (I know you haven't had a fun time with local ROCOR people. I'm just saying that it's there.) Plus there are the aforementioned Toronto-area parishes.
I'm well-acquainted with the situation in the Hamilton area. There's actually only one OCA mission active in Hamilton, and it's populated for the most part by people formerly of the OCA church in town. I spent a fair amount of time at both and neither were for me. I'm aware of the Antiochian churches - attending either would require two hours of round-trip driving, which is just nonsense when there are ten Orthodox churches within a 15 minute drive of my house. And, as you said, you know my aversion to ROCOR and obviously thus understand why I want nothing to do with that mission or its priest.

That said, I'm not really interested in this "well you can make it work if you really try" argument. I shouldn't have to. Converts, and anglophones in general, shouldn't be ghettoized because of a lack of services in an accessible language. I also know an unfortunate number of people in the area who converted to Orthodoxy, weren't really pulled in by the OCA presence in town, and who either left or became non-church attending because of the lack of accessible alternatives. That's ridiculous and shouldn't be happening.

Again, I committed financially to a church and will keep going and trying to make it work for the rest of this calendar year. But, seven years in the faith and I'm still no less exasperated by Orthodoxy's penchant for ethnocentrism. If my membership expires and I'm still feeling that way at that point, then it's likely inevitable I'll end up in the Roman Catholic Church, or just settle for being a "mere Christian" at home.
 

Katechon

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That said, I'm not really interested in this "well you can make it work if you really try" argument. I shouldn't have to.
I understand your grief, but how did you get to that conclusion? The cross you bear is up to God. And the usage of a different language is unfortunate, but not an abuse. It seems to me that you mix up the ethnocentric component with the abuse you personally faced years ago, since both played hand in hand at that time.

Converts, and anglophones in general, shouldn't be ghettoized because of a lack of services in an accessible language. I also know an unfortunate number of people in the area who converted to Orthodoxy, weren't really pulled in by the OCA presence in town, and who either left or became non-church attending because of the lack of accessible alternatives. That's ridiculous and shouldn't be happening.
This is a pretty self-ghettoizing mentality. Church isn't about people coming around to make an offer to your liking. I have zero German-language parishes in my proximity. And I would assume that you wouldn't have these expectations if there wasn't such a massive anglophone and convert-centered Orthodoxy in North America in the first place.

Again, I committed financially to a church and will keep going and trying to make it work for the rest of this calendar year. But, seven years in the faith and I'm still no less exasperated by Orthodoxy's penchant for ethnocentrism. If my membership expires and I'm still feeling that way at that point, then it's likely inevitable I'll end up in the Roman Catholic Church, or just settle for being a "mere Christian" at home.
Now you're just stubborn.
 
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