• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Archbishop Elpidophoros meets with Met. Tikhon (OCA)

SolEX01

Toumarches
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
13,881
Reaction score
35
Points
48
Location
Central Maryland
Website
www.goarch.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of New Jersey
In the article, they set a date for feeding the hungry; discuss concelebrating a divine liturgy; and increase cooperation between the respective seminaries.

February 11, 2020

NEW YORK – Archbishop Elpidophoros and Metropolitan Tikhon met yesterday at the headquarters of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America in an ongoing effort to strengthen the relationship between the Archdiocese and the Orthodox Church in America.
https://www.goarch.org/-/archbishop-elpidophoros-and-metropolitan-tikhon-to-feed-those-in-need
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,241
Reaction score
430
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
The issue of concelebrating the liturgy is very thorny-- because the EP recognizes neither the OCA's autocephaly nor Met Tikhon's status as metropolitan of anywhere (the EP refers to non-EP bishops in the diaspora as bishops in a place, while their own bishops are of a place), when Met Tikhon has served with EP bishops in Turkey, he has served as an EP bishop in the order of his date of ordination. However, in North America, it's difficult to come up with a way for them to serve together that would look neither like the OCA submitting to the EP nor the EP recognizing the OCA's autocephaly.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,435
Reaction score
322
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Samn! said:
(the EP refers to non-EP bishops in the diaspora as bishops in a place, while their own bishops are of a place)
How long has this been going on?
 

Brilko

Elder
Joined
Jun 1, 2017
Messages
394
Reaction score
6
Points
18
Location
Deeper into the Shadows
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
?
Well, your friends with their fancy persuasion
Don't admit that it's part of a scheme
But I can't help but have my suspicion
'Cause I ain't quite as dumb as I seem
And you said you was never intending
To break up our scene in this way
But there ain't any use in pretending
It could happen to us any day
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,388
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Who mentioned genos first?
 

Samn!

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1,241
Reaction score
430
Points
83
Jurisdiction
Patriarchaat van Erps-Kwerps
Mor Ephrem said:
Samn! said:
(the EP refers to non-EP bishops in the diaspora as bishops in a place, while their own bishops are of a place)
How long has this been going on?
I first noticed it in the lead-up to the Crete Meet, when they were really insistent on calling Met Silouan (at the time) of Argentina the "bishop in Buenos Aires"-- it's a sore spot for the EP that the Antiochians represent like 90% of the Orthodox in the country and represent the entire Orthodox community in most events with the state or the Catholics, so they were especially insistent on it. But, at least since then, it seems general.
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,388
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
So are EP bishops of non-existent cities in Turkey still of or in the local area?
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,698
Reaction score
251
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
The EP's new theory is that Rome held supreme jurisdiction until the schism at which point it passed to the EP. Based on this theory, had there been no schism, all of the EP's parishes outside of Greece and Turkey would be under Rome. So just as the EP now imagines that Alaska and North America belongs to the EP after Russia colonized it and spread Orthodoxy there, under the EP's logic, if the Greeks made a colony in Antarctica, it would belong to Rome's jurisdiction.

The most nonsensical part is the very premise of how the new supremacy supposedly shifted to the EP. The EP objected in the 11th century to Rome's claim of supreme jurisdiction, and this was a main cause - in my view the fundamental practical cause - of the schism, and having schismated over this issue, the EP today claims that this right that it had claimed that Rome never held has now passed to the EP due to Rome being in schism. It's insane.

It's like an older sibling saying that he is always the boss of his younger siblings, then the younger siblings breaking off relations with their oldest brother for saying this, and then the oldest of the younger siblings saying that he is now the boss of the remaining siblings because they don't have any relations with their oldest brother anymore.

 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,559
Reaction score
261
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
Not true.  The EP was given the territory of the East and all the barbarian lands. Canon ? I forget.  Once it was discovered that the world is round.  Heading further east includes the Americas. Since east and barbarian lands intersect on the continent.  It was a no brainer.
Add the fall of western rome to schism and one continues farther east it brings you back to Constantinople. So the EP is the primate to the world. 
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,698
Reaction score
251
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Tzimis said:
Not true.  The EP was given the territory of the East and all the barbarian lands. Canon ? I forget.
...
So the EP is the primate to the world.
I know the alleged canon and it doesn't actually say that the EP gets all the barbarian lands, just a few named provinces that the EP mistakenly extrapolates into a principle of getting all such lands.
And it makes sense that the EP wouldn't get those lands in that canon, because the canon was pre-schism and if such a principle existed, then Rome would be the one getting those lands (eg. Iceland). Rome even explicitly appointed a bishop for Vinland (eastern Canada).
 

hecma925

Orthodox Taliban
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
21,477
Reaction score
1,388
Points
113
Age
161
Location
Wandering Fool
Faith
Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
Jurisdiction
Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad

WPM

Taxiarches
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
7,775
Reaction score
14
Points
0
Age
39
Faith
Ethiopian Jew
hecma925 said:
So are EP bishops of non-existent cities in Turkey still of or in the local area?
I do not know but I am the local man in the Gran-bury to Abilene region of TX.
 

Tzimis

Taxiarches
Site Supporter
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
5,559
Reaction score
261
Points
83
Location
wilderness
Faith
Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction
EP
rakovsky said:
Tzimis said:
Not true.  The EP was given the territory of the East and all the barbarian lands. Canon ? I forget.
...
So the EP is the primate to the world.
I know the alleged canon and it doesn't actually say that the EP gets all the barbarian lands, just a few named provinces that the EP mistakenly extrapolates into a principle of getting all such lands.
And it makes sense that the EP wouldn't get those lands in that canon, because the canon was pre-schism and if such a principle existed, then Rome would be the one getting those lands (eg. Iceland). Rome even explicitly appointed a bishop for Vinland (eastern Canada).
You actually took that seriously?
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,698
Reaction score
251
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Looks like I was mistaken in that the bishop if Vinland was appointed poat-schism, in 1112.
But anyway Greenland and Iceland had Roman pre schism bishops.
 

Saxon

High Elder
Joined
Sep 1, 2016
Messages
673
Reaction score
218
Points
43
Age
32
Location
Canada
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
UOCC
Tzimis said:
Not true.  The EP was given the territory of the East and all the barbarian lands. Canon ? I forget.  Once it was discovered that the world is round.  Heading further east includes the Americas. Since east and barbarian lands intersect on the continent.  It was a no brainer.
Add the fall of western rome to schism and one continues farther east it brings you back to Constantinople. So the EP is the primate to the world.
He isn't, but you've just acknowledged that the EP is now a functioning papacy. Freudian slip much?

What's entertaining is watching the EP and wider Hellenic jurisdictions trying to assert Greek supremacy/primacy within Orthodoxy because the Greek churches are in huge trouble globally due to dwindling congregations, incompetence, and industrial-scale financial mismanagement and corruption. Saying you're in control to compensate for the fact you no longer have the financial or material means to assert that control doesn't mean a thing.
 

WPM

Taxiarches
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
7,775
Reaction score
14
Points
0
Age
39
Faith
Ethiopian Jew
Time to call the EP's bluff about jurisdiction in barbarian lands.
 

rakovsky

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
12,698
Reaction score
251
Points
83
Location
USA
Website
rakovskii.livejournal.com
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Orthodox Church in America
Within the Orthodox community though, between believers, the Greek Church's teachings have a major impact, although you are right that they aren't decisive. They are probably 30-40% of the EOs in the US. So if the Greek youth are taught that their jurisdiction holds supremacy over the other jurisdictions and the youth show up at OCF meetings for instance and start repeating these ideas, it creates a problem because EOs believe that they hold a common theology between each other's churches. It creates a challenge of how the other EOs are supposed to accept this issue.

Still, you are making a good point, because other than maybe the GOC, Alexandrian Church, and Cyprus, the EP has a hard time enforcing acceptance of decisions that he might claim to make for the whole Church.
 
Top