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Archbishop Elpidophoros officiates baptism of gay couple in Athens

LizaSymonenko

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I would have posted this in Christian News section... but, it would be interesting to have some discussion about his.


My first gut reaction was WHAT?!?!?.... but, then I thought about the children... and really... they have every right to be baptized... as they are not guilty of anything.

However, is this baptism being honored for the Holy Sacrament that it is? Baptism in an of itself will not "save" the children... if they are not raised within the Church. It does not state the Faith of the EIGHT godparents... (do they really need 8?)... so, perhaps they will raise them in the Church.

Finally, why is A. Elpidophoros baptizing anyone in Athens? Do they not have their own bishops and priests?

So many questions...

 

RaphaCam

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but, then I thought about the children... and really... they have every right to be baptized... as they are not guilty of anything.

However, is this baptism being honored for the Holy Sacrament that it is? Baptism in an of itself will not "save" the children... if they are not raised within the Church. It does not state the Faith of the EIGHT godparents... (do they really need 8?)... so, perhaps they will raise them in the Church.
That's definitely the hard question.

Finally, why is A. Elpidophoros baptizing anyone in Athens? Do they not have their own bishops and priests?
He wants to make it very clear to whoever hasn't realised it yet that he's actively trolling the Orthodox Church. This is beyond modernism, it's pressure.
 

ICXCNIKA

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I agree that the children should be baptized but that sacred mystery should not be used to promote anything other the God and his saving love. This seems like it was a mere attempt to "seen". Which is why they keep referring to it as the first "openly gay baptism". The kids aren't gay? so how is this so?
 

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The children have a right to be baptized - absolutely - but, the parents have an obligation to raise their children in an appropriately Christian way. How is that going to happen here? Also, the contextualization and headlining seem to be pushing something.
 

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Any Orthodox priest is able to refuse baptism to infants if it is clear that they are not going to be raised in a Christian household, according to Christian moral norms. It's not a punishment for the child and is probably better for them. In this case, though, it wasn't as if Archbishop Elpidophoros had his arm twisted or anything, he happily went along with this travesty.
 
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Wonder what makes people like this tick? Does he really have misguided but benevolent intentions? Is this just a mechanism using human shields to further deception, power, and dismantling of tradition? I believe the latter.
 

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Wonder what makes people like this tick? Does he really have misguided but benevolent intentions? Is this just a mechanism using human shields to further deception, power, and dismantling of tradition? I believe the latter.
I suspect that the culture wars in the Catholic Church are either creeping into, or at least being projected onto, Orthodoxy, exacerbated by Orthodoxy's unique and, I increasingly believe, problematic intersection with nationalism and ethnic identity. Between Archbishop Elpidophoros' weasel-worded statement to the March for Life - which could have been interpreted as literally saying anything - and this, it seems as if he is trying to situate himself as the Pope Francis of the Eastern Orthodox Church - a kindly, human, non-judgmental face of the faith, in contrast to the more rigid and puritanical approach from Orthodoxy on the other side of the divide (see that as ROCOR, the MP, etc.). As the Archbishop is the heir presumptive to the EP, expect this to increase going forward.
 

LizaSymonenko

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.... in contrast to the more rigid and puritanical approach from Orthodoxy on the other side of the divide (see that as ROCOR, the MP, etc.).
It is not just the "Russian" Churches who hold on tightly to Christ's teachings. There are many others, if not most others... who are not willing to modernize.
 

hurrrah

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a kindly, human, non-judgmental face of the faith, in contrast to the more rigid and puritanical approach from Orthodoxy on the other side of the divide
Is that sarcasm?
 

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I think it's great. Christ is in our midst!;)
 

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Is that sarcasm?
I assumed it would be self-evident, but yes. There’s nothing positive about this type of watered-down, big-tent Christianity
 

hurrrah

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Sorry, my english is not so good. In fact, i'm don't speak :)
 

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As the Archbishop is the heir presumptive to the EP, expect this to increase going forward.
I thought Metropolitan Emmanuel of Chalcedon is the heir presumptive? He seems to do a lot of things in lieu of Patriarch Bartholomew.
 

Sethrak

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God loves everyone? I'll ask Him, so should we all,
There are a couple things I need to as Him
 

biro

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Sethrak, I've put you on Ignore.
 

biro

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It is an abomination "before the Lord," which means in the Holy of Holies, in the Temple building. In the same chapter, it says for the priest not to have sex with his wife. Because if you do that, you'll be unable to wake up in time to hold the services in the morning.
 

RaphaCam

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It is an abomination "before the Lord," which means in the Holy of Holies, in the Temple building. In the same chapter, it says for the priest not to have sex with his wife. Because if you do that, you'll be unable to wake up in time to hold the services in the morning.
I don't think Leviticus 18 forbids people from having sex with animals and parents particularly in the Temple.
 

hurrrah

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Some things are ridiculous and unpleasant to discuss.
If homosex is an abomination, how can there be this type of marriage in the Church???
It can't possibly. Sin separates from God and excommunicates from the Church. The baptism of unrepentant sodomites is blasphemy and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This sweet couple could stop sinning - easily, with God's explicit help, or difficulty, with sweat and blood - with implicit. This would mean that Christ came to them too. But now they spat in His face.
 

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It is an abomination "before the Lord," which means in the Holy of Holies, in the Temple building. In the same chapter, it says for the priest not to have sex with his wife. Because if you do that, you'll be unable to wake up in time to hold the services in the morning.
:ROFLMAO:
 

augustin717

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Like it or not it’s how te OC tend to operate especially where they form majorities. Baptisms are kinda doled out indiscriminately. Some people would be happier in some conservative Calvinist sect where a child’s baptism is conditioned by his parents’ holiness.
 

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:devilish:
As far as I'm concerned Archbishop Elpidophoros is just carrying out his duty as a bishop, and the baptized men's relationship with God is between them and Him! Odd?
 

LizaSymonenko

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The men did not get baptized…. their children were baptized….

Could they not find a priest to perform the Holy Sacrament, or a local bishop… that they required a bishop from another country to come and do so?

…or was it merely a great photo-op?

I do not begrudge the children their baptism… but the was it was done seems odd to say the least.

I do hope and pray they grow up in the Church and follow Christ…
 

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Unless I am mistaken the faith and faithfulness of the godparents is far more important than that of the parents.

Irrespective, the faithfulness or lack thereof in either party is NEVER the fault of the child.
 

DeniseDenise

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My first gut reaction was WHAT?!?!?.... but, then I thought about the children... and really... they have every right to be baptized... as they are not guilty of anything.

However, is this baptism being honored for the Holy Sacrament that it is? Baptism in an of itself will not "save" the children... if they are not raised within the Church. It does not state the Faith of the EIGHT godparents... (do they really need 8?)... so, perhaps they will raise them in the Church.

Very good questions, but also ones we do NOT typically ask of all the other parishioners we see baptizing their children, and who then later vanish completely from parish life.

If all the parties involved meant the words that they as Godparents said during the service..( and we assume that of everyone else becoming Godparents) then we must default to the same benefit of the doubt here that they are sincere and will help the children grow up in the faith.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Very good questions, but also ones we do NOT typically ask of all the other parishioners we see baptizing their children, and who then later vanish completely from parish life.

If all the parties involved meant the words that they as Godparents said during the service..( and we assume that of everyone else becoming Godparents) then we must default to the same benefit of the doubt here that they are sincere and will help the children grow up in the faith.
I completely agree.
All Godparents ought to be vetted. They need to be parishioners in good standing, who plan on taking an interest in raising their godchild in the Church...

I also know many many godparents who come for the baptism... smile for the photos... and then they, and their godchild.... disappear from the parish until it's time to marry them, or bury them.

Another thing that people may not realize.... while we have all heard that it is bad to decline an invitation to be a godparent.... it is even worse if the godparent does not intend to educate and guide that child to Christ.

When a godparent will one day stand before the Lord on Judgement Day... He WILL judge them on what they have done, and not done, as a godparent... and if their actions/inactions have impacted their godchildren positively... or if they have fallen away from the Church due to lack of input from their godparent.

It is more than a photo-op.
It is a serious undertaking and not to be taken lightly.
 

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The men did not get baptized…. their children were baptized….

Could they not find a priest to perform the Holy Sacrament, or a local bishop… that they required a bishop from another country to come and do so?

…or was it merely a great photo-op?

I do not begrudge the children their baptism… but the was it was done seems odd to say the least.

I do hope and pray they grow up in the Church and follow Christ…
Exactly! And, of all bishops, the same one who tries to portray the Orthodox Church as a whole as pro-choice. It's unfortunately very personal. I avoid personalising criticism of bishops, but he's actively pushing for modernism. Whether it's some personal crusade (it looks like the Fourth) or it's about deepening wedges and see who goes where in an eventual divide, that's above our paygrade. It just seems GOARCH is again not in good hands.
 

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The men did not get baptized…. their children were baptized….

Could they not find a priest to perform the Holy Sacrament, or a local bishop… that they required a bishop from another country to come and do so?

…or was it merely a great photo-op?

I do not begrudge the children their baptism… but the was it was done seems odd to say the least.

I do hope and pray they grow up in the Church and follow Christ…
Hammer, meet nail.

Even the news coverage is making me laugh. The headline in Australia's Neos Kosmos is "Archbishop Elpidophoros Conducts First Openly Gay Baptism in Athens": https://neoskosmos.com/en/2022/07/1...s-children-of-celebrity-gay-couple-in-athens/

That could be interpreted many, many ways.

I also didn't open the original article as I'm highly disinterested in the people involved and their story, but the screenshot of the Instagram post is telling:

bptsm.jpg


Source: http://byztex.blogspot.com/2022/07/elpidophoros-officiates-first-openly.html

"The Archbishop of America, his Eminence Elpidophoros for pushing change and love with no judgement of anyone in the church".

There's a lot of editorialization going on, obviously agenda-pushing, and neither GOARCH nor the EP have responded or attempted to "correct the record".

Now, there are plenty of clergy (and hierarchs, if that's the direction they wanted to go) in Greece who could have performed this baptism. Why was the American Archbishop spirited all the way to Athens to do this? The answer is that he's the Archbishop of America - this is the type of story that will generate a lot of coverage, talk, and controversy in the world's media hegemon. This was done with full intent and knowledge. Throw that in with the Archbishops's marching alongside BLM, with its openly avowed and stated Marxism and opposition to the so-called nuclear family, and that ridiculous statement to the March for Life, and it's clear that he's attempting to cultivate an Orthodox milieu palatable to progressive America and the coastal cocktail circuits.
 

Dominika

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I agree with Liza and have already written similar comments in Polish discussions. That's good that children got baptised - of course, a mystery is nto a amgic, but on the other hand, definitely they are now put in Christ and they have this good seed, that may be frutiful even 20, 30 years after. I just hope that they have been brought or they will be brought to the Holy Eucharist, as it's not the end of the initiation.

And also my main question: we Orthodox always say about the importance of local bishop. No idea who is there, but definitely nto abp Elpidophoros. Has the local bishop agreeded that another bishop perform sacrament there?..
 

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Evidently, Met Elpidophoros lied to the bishop in whose territory he performed the baptism:


It's almost as interesting that Orthodoxia, which is very ardently pro-EP, was the first place to break the story online.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Google cannot translate the letter which is in Greek because it is an image. What does the letter say?
 

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What does the letter say?
The metropolitan of the diocese is writing to the holy synod of Greece to explain that he had no idea that a baptism was going to take place in these circumstances, that Met Elpidophoros merely informed him that he was going to baptise two children from the Boussis family of Chicago. Thus, he states, Met Elpidophoros acted of his own accord and against the canons, inasmuch as if he had explained the circumstances, the local metropolitan would have had to refer the issue to the Holy Synod for guidance. He also attaches the letter he received to demonstrate the degree to which he was misled.
 

LizaSymonenko

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The metropolitan of the diocese is writing to the holy synod of Greece to explain that he had no idea that a baptism was going to take place in these circumstances, that Met Elpidophoros merely informed him that he was going to baptise two children from the Boussis family of Chicago. Thus, he states, Met Elpidophoros acted of his own accord and against the canons, inasmuch as if he had explained the circumstances, the local metropolitan would have had to refer the issue to the Holy Synod for guidance. He also attaches the letter he received to demonstrate the degree to which he was misled.
Thank you for the translation. I never got around to learning Greek. ;)
 
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