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Archbishop Elpidophoros officiates baptism of gay couple in Athens

Xenia

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I think everyone agrees that children ought to be baptized, but in this case the local parish, in California I think I read it was (do these two men even have a local parish?) should have been the venue, with their own priest (do these men even have a priest?) and it should be done quietly, with the two men being strongly counseled and admonished before hand and with the hope that someone in the crowd of eight godparents (any of them regular church-goers?) would diligently care for the souls of these babies. Instead it was a celebration of degeneracy. May God keep these two innocent children in his embrace, because they have a hard road ahead.
 

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I think everyone agrees that children ought to be baptized
The Church really needs to have some kind of pentitential service pre-baptism for when parents acquire their children through surrogacy, which is a very, very serious matter tantamount to human trafficking.
 

Shanghaiski

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If someone is not going to be raised in the Orthodox faith, then they should not be baptized. Baptism is not a right or a magical rite. While it confers divine grace, it also brings with it a dread responsibility. Now, there will be more for the men, the clergy, and the godparents to answer for before God. Does that really serve for the benefit of the children who are being used?
 

Shanghaiski

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The Church really needs to have some kind of pentitential service pre-baptism for when parents acquire their children through surrogacy, which is a very, very serious matter tantamount to human trafficking.
This need not be a new liturgical service. It can be accomplished through confession. But confession is not even something many so-called Orthodox Christians participate in.
 

augustin717

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If someone is not going to be raised in the Orthodox faith, then they should not be baptized. Baptism is not a right or a magical rite. While it confers divine grace, it also brings with it a dread responsibility. Now, there will be more for the men, the clergy, and the godparents to answer for before God. Does that really serve for the benefit of the children who are being used?
Bring it up to ab actual synod and see their faces. In reality apart from some idealistic individuals, nobody wants that. The Church wants big numbers especially where it has deep historical roots, has majorities it has to upkeep.
In Romania you are a member in good (enough) standing to be a godparent and be given a funeral with no extra taxes if you paid the yearly church tax established by each parish.
All bishops just urged us all recently that if we are baptized pease say you are orthodox in ongoing census. Based on the numbers funds are allotted to dioceses and other church structures from the state. If you want a church of the few but pure, most orthodox churches wouldn’t be your first choice.people still confuse theological points made in theological papers and publications with the more practical and urgent necessities on the ground.
 

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If someone is not going to be raised in the Orthodox faith, then they should not be baptized. Baptism is not a right or a magical rite. While it confers divine grace, it also brings with it a dread responsibility. Now, there will be more for the men, the clergy, and the godparents to answer for before God. Does that really serve for the benefit of the children who are being used?
What does the baptismal vows taken in place of the child by the Godparents and the two guys who happen to have been given responsibility over this child even count under these circumstances?

It should be understood that the catechumenate used to be the precondition for baptism in the Church, with Christian marriage being the exception that attaches the catechumenate to after the baptism. But there cannot be a catechumenate under these circumstances. And it is in fact gravely dangerous to give the impression that the Church actually blessed these circumstances, especially if the children ought to ever reflect on what was done to them on a broader scale.
 

Samn!

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This need not be a new liturgical service. It can be accomplished through confession. But confession is not even something many so-called Orthodox Christians participate in.
I had in mind the penitential aspect of second marriage services, because some basically social sins that affect the life of the whole community need a quasi-public remedy. That is, the Church can't just have a celebratory baptism congratulating people for buying a child.
 

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I was watching a video where a gay couple said they would never adopt a child because it would be out of selfishness. That a child needs to be raised in a household with a mother and father. That the child will never become their full selves without the two present in their lives. When the time comes, it should be interesting to hear how the God parent(s) will answer their godchildren when they ask why the church doesn't allow gay "marriage."

Unfortunately, I have seen too many baptisms and weddings where it was done to appease the parents or grandparents. And after the ceremony, the couple or family never step back into church again.
 

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The metropolitan of the diocese is writing to the holy synod of Greece to explain that he had no idea that a baptism was going to take place in these circumstances, that Met Elpidophoros merely informed him that he was going to baptise two children from the Boussis family of Chicago. Thus, he states, Met Elpidophoros acted of his own accord and against the canons, inasmuch as if he had explained the circumstances, the local metropolitan would have had to refer the issue to the Holy Synod for guidance. He also attaches the letter he received to demonstrate the degree to which he was misled.
Indeed. English translations are now available online. There was a deliberate deception and violation of jurisdictional authority that is actually shocking. Resignations should ensue.
 

JTLoganville

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?

So many questions...


[/QUOTE]

I am also scandalized by the bare midriff outfit worn by the young woman on the extreme right of the picture.

Totally inappropriate dress for Church.
 

xariskai

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In the case of Orthodox Christian baptism of infants is it not always required in all jurisdictions (asking as I'm not sure) of parents of the infant to to provide not only proof of their marriage, but also info on what parish the parents were married in and by what priest?

According to an Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops statement "The Orthodox Church cannot and will not bless same-sex unions. Whereas marriage between a man and a woman is a sacred institution ordained by God, homosexual union is not."

What is the theology of infant baptism of a homosexual couple in terms of the Orthodox Christian family as an icon of the Holy Trinity? E.g.
"The need for infant baptism can also be deduced from Trinitarian theology and the Church's teachings in regard to the family. In accordance to Genesis 2:24, a man and a women make up one flesh. This is because the family unit is an icon of the Trinity, reflecting the image of God. John 10:30 correctly points out that the Father and Son are one. Thus, since the family is an icon of the Trinity, the children of a family are considered to be of one flesh with their parents. Because of this, it becomes a preference not to receive person individually but communally into the Church via baptism. This of course would require children and infants to be present." https://orthodoxwiki.org/Infant_baptism
 

Ainnir

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Bring it up to ab actual synod and see their faces. In reality apart from some idealistic individuals, nobody wants that. The Church wants big numbers especially where it has deep historical roots, has majorities it has to upkeep.
In Romania you are a member in good (enough) standing to be a godparent and be given a funeral with no extra taxes if you paid the yearly church tax established by each parish.
All bishops just urged us all recently that if we are baptized pease say you are orthodox in ongoing census. Based on the numbers funds are allotted to dioceses and other church structures from the state. If you want a church of the few but pure, most orthodox churches wouldn’t be your first choice.people still confuse theological points made in theological papers and publications with the more practical and urgent necessities on the ground.
This may be sad but true, but it won't mitigate their accountability before God.
 

TheTrisagion

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I'm curious about this opening line in the article:
A few days or weeks before he is no longer Archbishop of America, AB Elpidophoros took an unannounced trip to Greece and proceeded to legitimize gay marriage by baptizing the children of a famous gay couple (born by surrogate mother)!!
Is it a known fact that he is being replaced or is the author just making a statement that he believes he will be removed because of this incident? I must admit I do not closely follow the church politics very closely.
 

Samn!

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Is it a known fact that he is being replaced or is the author just making a statement that he believes he will be removed because of this incident?
There is widespread speculation that he will be replaced by the Greek metropolitan of the UK, who is originally American, but I would be skeptical about that.
 

biro

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Trisagion: it’s probably a “prediction.” Or wishful thinking.
 

LizaSymonenko

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I used to have a high opinion of Archbishop Elpidophoros. When he was still an "unknown" in Constantinople, probably some 15 years ago... (before Social Media)... I had sent an email to the EP/Constantinople... to which he replied. He was most cordial and helpful... and I was pleased when I heard he was ordained a bishop, and then came to America, etc.

But now I wonder if the prestige has had a negative impact on him.

We all know that power corrupts... and it takes a strong person to withstand that corruption.
 

Stinky

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I think I may be coming out of the closet as “ Orthodox NonBinary.”

Not the *female* Babylon the Great Whore on the “left” EP, nor the *male* sickle yielding blood thirsty step-on-their-necks Pharisee “right” MP.

Somewhere in between these polar extremes is the Grace and Light of God. As God sifts the Church, He alone knows those who are His in every jurisdiction. Pray for us Holy Mother of God that we may be found in the Light and Grace of your Son, our Savior! Lord, have mercy!
 

Stinky

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I think I may be coming out of the closet as “ Orthodox NonBinary.”

Not the *female* Babylon the Great Whore on the “left” EP, nor the *male* sickle yielding blood thirsty step-on-their-necks Pharisee “right” MP.

Somewhere in between these polar extremes is the Grace and Light of God. As God sifts the Church, He alone knows those who are His in every jurisdiction. Pray for us Holy Mother of God that we may be found in the Light and Grace of your Son, our Savior! Lord, have mercy!
That’s *wielding* not yielding….
 

Ainnir

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I think I may be coming out of the closet as “ Orthodox NonBinary.”

Not the *female* Babylon the Great Whore on the “left” EP, nor the *male* sickle yielding blood thirsty step-on-their-necks Pharisee “right” MP.

Somewhere in between these polar extremes is the Grace and Light of God. As God sifts the Church, He alone knows those who are His in every jurisdiction. Pray for us Holy Mother of God that we may be found in the Light and Grace of your Son, our Savior! Lord, have mercy!
It's not even nonbinary, it's just Scripture... neither to the right nor to the left. And you'll find that balance within every jurisdiction; sometimes it seems like you have to dig a bit, but it's there.
 
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It is binary. Sheep and goats. Everyone, including those in the Church, will be separated between left and right.
 

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RaphaCam

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The Holy Synod of Greece has decided to send a letter of protest to both Met Elpidophoros and the Ecumenical Patriarchate about how he handled the baptism:

I realise this epistle is written in Standard Modern Greek, while Greek Orthodox official texts are usually written in an archaic register called Katharevousa. Can anyone explain? If there's no explanation, I can only think they want more common people to actually read it this time, which would speak for how grave this situation has become.

What could actually come of this? The EP and its daughter church in America seem to view themselves as beyond reproach.
If they're sending a public synodal letter, they can't be simply sending a letter. These things require discretion.
 

Samn!

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What could actually come of this? The EP and its daughter church in America seem to view themselves as beyond reproach.
It's a complicated moment in the EP, and not only because the competition to succeed Patriarch Bartholomew has become more or less explicit in the past couple years. Since the EP synod meets later this week, what amounts to a humiliation for both Met Elpidophoros personally and the EP institutionally within the intense honor/shame culture of the Greek clerical world may have practical repercussions. The fact that the Holy Synod in the same session decided to thank the parties in government in Greece while earlier in the week the main opposition party gave a statement backing Met Elpidophoros adds another dimension-- the Greek state has a lot of pull with the EP. Then also, this past weekend Elpidophoros gave a homily strongly criticizing Turkey over the Cyprus issue, where before he had even gone so far as to appear in public events with the "president" of Northern Cyprus, which means that he's feeling enough pressure from that direction that he's willing to risk angering his main political constituency, Turkey. I doubt he'll actually get moved out of America, but he's in a precarious position and clearly out of his depth on just about every front.
 

RaphaCam

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It's a complicated moment in the EP, and not only because the competition to succeed Patriarch Bartholomew has become more or less explicit in the past couple years. Since the EP synod meets later this week, what amounts to a humiliation for both Met Elpidophoros personally and the EP institutionally within the intense honor/shame culture of the Greek clerical world may have practical repercussions. The fact that the Holy Synod in the same session decided to thank the parties in government in Greece while earlier in the week the main opposition party gave a statement backing Met Elpidophoros adds another dimension-- the Greek state has a lot of pull with the EP. Then also, this past weekend Elpidophoros gave a homily strongly criticizing Turkey over the Cyprus issue, where before he had even gone so far as to appear in public events with the "president" of Northern Cyprus, which means that he's feeling enough pressure from that direction that he's willing to risk angering his main political constituency, Turkey. I doubt he'll actually get moved out of America, but he's in a precarious position and clearly out of his depth on just about every front.
Excellent news. May God humble him not only outside, but also inside.
 

xariskai

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It is binary. Sheep and goats. Everyone, including those in the Church, will be separated between left and right.
Mushy middle might subsist momentarily as a triad, but binary at the end. Hegel on his head.

“I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." -Revelation 3:15-16
 

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Any Orthodox priest is able to refuse baptism to infants if it is clear that they are not going to be raised in a Christian household, according to Christian moral norms. It's not a punishment for the child and is probably better for them. In this case, though, it wasn't as if Archbishop Elpidophoros had his arm twisted or anything, he happily went along with this travesty.
So many families which dont follow Christian moral norms, who dont even know exactly what they believe in and still they are allowed to baptize their children. So many mafia bosses in Serbia, Russia and elsewhere who were able to baptize their kids and no one complained. What a hypocrisy. I would prefer to baptize children from gay couples more than from a mafia family.
 

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So many families which dont follow Christian moral norms, who dont even know exactly what they believe in and still they are allowed to baptize their children. So many mafia bosses in Serbia, Russia and elsewhere who were able to baptize their kids and no one complained. What a hypocrisy. I would prefer to baptize children from gay couples more than from a mafia family.
...atleast you leap the two together.
 

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It is binary. Sheep and goats. Everyone, including those in the Church, will be separated between left and right.
God’s left and right doesn’t look like man’s left and right.
Staying on the narrow path, on the ladder of ascension, and being in the Grace of God-kept from wandering to the right or left by passion, distraction, pride- this is our prayer! May we keep our eyes on Christ our Savior, our Bridegroom! He is coming for us in the clouds! May our lamps be filled with faith and anticipation at His coming! Fill us O Lord with Love!
Keep us God from personality cults and following people or nations or cultures! Keep our eye single and on the prize! Jesus our Christ save us!
 

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So many families which dont follow Christian moral norms, who dont even know exactly what they believe in and still they are allowed to baptize their children. So many mafia bosses in Serbia, Russia and elsewhere who were able to baptize their kids and no one complained. What a hypocrisy. I would prefer to baptize children from gay couples more than from a mafia family.
Matthew 19:14
KJV

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
 

xariskai

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So many mafia bosses in Serbia, Russia and elsewhere who were able to baptize their kids and no one complained. What a hypocrisy. I would prefer to baptize children from gay couples more than from a mafia family.
Fallacy of relative privation (not as bad as) – dismissing an argument or complaint due to the existence of a worse problem regardless of whether it bears relevance to the initial argument.

A boy put a spoonful of mucus from a tobacco spit pan into your soup?
Broken glass in your soup would be worse. Broken glass would cut up your whole gut.
I would prefer to have a spoonful of mucus in my soup than broken glass.


This could almost serve as an argument for dirty soup in some quarters, if the listener failed to see the form of the argument would be formally invalid. That is because it results in a conclusion (the conclusion can be tacit or explicit) that is contradictory to one of the premises.
a is bad
b is double-bad
therefore
a is good or ok

Cf. "First World Problems Arguments":
My transmission is ruined, my roof is leaking, my sink water is filled with dark rust, and my computer is glitching.
Some people don't have a car or a house at all and drink their water from ditches with open sewers and are starving.
I would prefer to have a ruined transmission, a leaky roof, a sink filled with dark rust, and a glitching computer.


Cf. also
"Moral equivalence is a form of equivocation and a fallacy of relevance often used in political debates. It seeks to draw comparisons between different, often unrelated things, to make a point that one is just as bad as the other or just as good as the other. It may be used to draw attention to an unrelated issue by comparing it to a well-known bad event, in an attempt to say one is as bad as the other. Or, it may be used in an attempt to claim one isn't as bad as the other by comparison. Drawing a moral equivalence in this way is a logical fallacy."
 
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"I would rather have adults sexually abuse children rather than teach children how to deal drugs and murder."
 

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So many families which dont follow Christian moral norms, who dont even know exactly what they believe in and still they are allowed to baptize their children. So many mafia bosses in Serbia, Russia and elsewhere who were able to baptize their kids and no one complained. What a hypocrisy.
If the next primate of ROCOR surprises a bishop in Russia with a photo-op baptising the children of American Bratva bosses in his diocese, showing off Bratva tattoos so the statement is very clear, then we can talk about hipocrisy. Although, of course, even in this hypothetical scenario it's easy to expect people to become martyrs.

I would prefer to baptize children from gay couples more than from a mafia family.
Agreed.
 

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I mean, I don't have any particular experience apart from being born and raised in Rio de Janeiro (privileged, but in touch, long story), but I have a strong intuition taking a stand against some particular abuse of people with power of life and death over your area will more easily get you gruesomely killed like St. Philip of Moscow by Ivan the Terrible than obeyed like St. Ambrose of Milan by St. Theodosius. They might as well go to the police, but then they'd have to hope that the police will be effective, their family won't be hurt and, of course, that the officers aren't in on the game.

I'm really tired of people asking why no one stands up against organised crime without knowing the reality of living in their reach. That's the same mentality that gets entire countries indiscriminately labelled as "narco-states". It speaks much about privilege.
 
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