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Are Deaconesses Needed?

orthoreader

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This thread was split from another topic which can be found here.  Thanks.  --Ainnir

So we've discovered and outlined the 'office' of the Deaconess over and over again when this happens, but we never really ever discover what the need was to revive this office. For once, I'd to learn what the actual need is.
 

Ainnir

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Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
 

orthoreader

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Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
 

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orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
 

biro

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Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
 

Mor Ephrem

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biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Whether women are good or not (God made them good, Christians believe they are good, and a number of women are trying to prove them wrong) is not at issue here.
 

Ainnir

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orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
Yes.  Your priest is a man, I assume?
 

orthoreader

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biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.

I think the biggest issue is that many don't understand what they are asking for when they seek out ordination. Men and women. But, women especially have no idea what they would be getting themselves into. I think if people had a glimpse of the attacks and temptations that hit Deacons, Priests, Bishops they'd think twice. It's soul crushing, it's heartbreaking, lives have been ruined.

More so than not, it seems people seek out ordination for status. Especially protestant converts who were in some form of leadership in their previous settings and now believe they just must have the same status in the Orthodox Church.

Other than monastics, I have yet to see a woman who seeks such a role do it because it was a true calling. To be honest, I don't think a woman would even understand the calling even if she had it. She wouldn't be able to identify it. Rather, they seek it only because the perception is there that "someone said they're not allowed." This is not a knock on a woman. Women are able to perceive other things much, much better than men. Their main role, and in some respect, the most important role, is within the home church.
 

orthoreader

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Ainnir said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
Yes.  Your priest is a man, I assume?
Well since I am in the same jurisdiction as you are, yes. Is not your priest a man?
 

orthoreader

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Mor Ephrem said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Whether women are good or not (God made them good, Christians believe they are good, and a number of women are trying to prove them wrong) is not at issue here.
My hero.
 

Arachne

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orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.
Didn't they have to be quiet back in the day?
 

orthoreader

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Arachne said:
orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.
Didn't they have to be quiet back in the day?
Today is back in the day, and back in the day is today.
 

Arachne

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orthoreader said:
Arachne said:
orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.
Didn't they have to be quiet back in the day?
Today is back in the day, and back in the day is today.
So nothing hindering them. Cool.
 

Ainnir

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orthoreader, I'll answer you later.  I find your post incensing, for starters.  Also, though you asked why deaconesses were needed, your responses reflect to me a position that is pretty closed to actually understanding those needs.

Arachne said:
So nothing hindering them. Cool.
:-*
 

biro

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Even if the deaconesses say absolutely nothing during services, it won't be enough for him. He thinks he knows better than St. Paul.
 

Mor Ephrem

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biro said:
Even if the deaconesses say absolutely nothing during services, it won't be enough for him. He thinks he knows better than St. Paul.
Even if your claim were true, he’s hardly the only person here who thinks he knows better than St Paul.  St Paul said a lot of things that annoy both men and women.
 

Mor Ephrem

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orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.

I think the biggest issue is that many don't understand what they are asking for when they seek out ordination. Men and women. But, women especially have no idea what they would be getting themselves into. I think if people had a glimpse of the attacks and temptations that hit Deacons, Priests, Bishops they'd think twice. It's soul crushing, it's heartbreaking, lives have been ruined.

More so than not, it seems people seek out ordination for status. Especially protestant converts who were in some form of leadership in their previous settings and now believe they just must have the same status in the Orthodox Church.

Other than monastics, I have yet to see a woman who seeks such a role do it because it was a true calling. To be honest, I don't think a woman would even understand the calling even if she had it. She wouldn't be able to identify it. Rather, they seek it only because the perception is there that "someone said they're not allowed." This is not a knock on a woman. Women are able to perceive other things much, much better than men. Their main role, and in some respect, the most important role, is within the home church.
Would you please develop the ideas I’ve highlighted in bold?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Would you please develop the ideas I’ve highlighted in bold?
+1
 

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It's a beautiful picture, I hope that they help the parish out. The Syriac Church needs all the help it can get.
 

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Arachne said:
orthoreader said:
Arachne said:
orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.
Didn't they have to be quiet back in the day?
Today is back in the day, and back in the day is today.
So nothing hindering them. Cool.
Maybe those women who actually practiced modesty in speech and appearance, and were given the gift of prophecy. Would that be you, Wonder Woman? I know it wouldn't be me.
 

orthoreader

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Mor Ephrem said:
orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.

I think the biggest issue is that many don't understand what they are asking for when they seek out ordination. Men and women. But, women especially have no idea what they would be getting themselves into. I think if people had a glimpse of the attacks and temptations that hit Deacons, Priests, Bishops they'd think twice. It's soul crushing, it's heartbreaking, lives have been ruined.

More so than not, it seems people seek out ordination for status. Especially protestant converts who were in some form of leadership in their previous settings and now believe they just must have the same status in the Orthodox Church.

Other than monastics, I have yet to see a woman who seeks such a role do it because it was a true calling. To be honest, I don't think a woman would even understand the calling even if she had it. She wouldn't be able to identify it. Rather, they seek it only because the perception is there that "someone said they're not allowed." This is not a knock on a woman. Women are able to perceive other things much, much better than men. Their main role, and in some respect, the most important role, is within the home church.
Would you please develop the ideas I’ve highlighted in bold?
This would be from 1 Corinthians 14:35 and found in the Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, I believe, in the ones of Ephesians.

There's really no question as to the seriousness of St. Paul's views of women being veiled in the Church, to be modest in appearance and speaking. Not to banter in church and if they had question to ask their husbands at home. There was and is reason for this. It's not antiquated thinking or medicine. It's actually needed today to, maybe even more than then.

There is definitely occasion for women who are given the gifts of prophecy and the gifts are equally distributed to men and women. But to be frank, I have not found a woman yet in the Church who has really had something meaningful to say. Mostly, it's been out of inner need to be the "woman who said something."
 

Ainnir

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orthoreader said:
Arachne said:
So nothing hindering them. Cool.
Maybe those women who actually practiced modesty in speech and appearance, and were given the gift of prophecy. Would that be you, Wonder Woman? I know it wouldn't be me.
Ironically, modesty and humility would prevent one from defending herself or refuting your assumptions.  How convenient for you.  You show the weaker judgment in your jab.  Bear in mind that all of us will answer for every idle word, not just women for the ones spoken in Church.

orthoreader said:
There is definitely occasion for women who are given the gifts of prophecy and the gifts are equally distributed to men and women. But to be frank, I have not found a woman yet in the Church who has really had something meaningful to say. Mostly, it's been out of inner need to be the "woman who said something."
Fascinating viewpoint.  Do you think God agrees?
 

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Ainnir said:
orthoreader said:
Arachne said:
So nothing hindering them. Cool.
Maybe those women who actually practiced modesty in speech and appearance, and were given the gift of prophecy. Would that be you, Wonder Woman? I know it wouldn't be me.
Ironically, modesty and humility would prevent one from defending herself or refuting your assumptions.  How convenient for you.  You show the weaker judgment in your jab.  Bear in mind that all of us will answer for every idle word, not just women for the ones spoken in Church.

orthoreader said:
There is definitely occasion for women who are given the gifts of prophecy and the gifts are equally distributed to men and women. But to be frank, I have not found a woman yet in the Church who has really had something meaningful to say. Mostly, it's been out of inner need to be the "woman who said something."
Fascinating viewpoint.  Do you think God agrees?
Well, you know what they say about viewpoints... Interesting thought though. It's funny how we find the liberty to speak and express these viewpoints openly just because we hide behind an avatar or type on a computer, and then call it "defending ourselves" as if they were actually attacked. I'm nothing and no one special, but I wonder how many Deacons, Priests, Bishops have been on here expressing a view of the church and had to endure the disrespect of someone who felt they were being attacked by what the Church actually believes, and then called it a defense after speaking with witty in response? You see what I'm getting at here?

Since what I state was pulled precisely from the Gospels, St. Paul, and then translated and taught by a Golden Mouthed Saint, I feel pretty confident I'm not stepping out of line. Besides, I always start with myself when I speak to these matters. I too need to scale back on my speaking in the Church. What I think, what I believe I have a right to say or express, doesn't really matter.

Perhaps those who were specifically singled out by the Gospels to also follow the same methods should also think about scaling back their mouths and thinking twice about what they have a right too?

Just a suggestion.

 

biro

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orthoreader said:
Mor Ephrem said:
orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.

I think the biggest issue is that many don't understand what they are asking for when they seek out ordination. Men and women. But, women especially have no idea what they would be getting themselves into. I think if people had a glimpse of the attacks and temptations that hit Deacons, Priests, Bishops they'd think twice. It's soul crushing, it's heartbreaking, lives have been ruined.

More so than not, it seems people seek out ordination for status. Especially protestant converts who were in some form of leadership in their previous settings and now believe they just must have the same status in the Orthodox Church.

Other than monastics, I have yet to see a woman who seeks such a role do it because it was a true calling. To be honest, I don't think a woman would even understand the calling even if she had it. She wouldn't be able to identify it. Rather, they seek it only because the perception is there that "someone said they're not allowed." This is not a knock on a woman. Women are able to perceive other things much, much better than men. Their main role, and in some respect, the most important role, is within the home church.
Would you please develop the ideas I’ve highlighted in bold?
This would be from 1 Corinthians 14:35 and found in the Homilies of St. John Chrysostom, I believe, in the ones of Ephesians.

There's really no question as to the seriousness of St. Paul's views of women being veiled in the Church, to be modest in appearance and speaking. Not to banter in church and if they had question to ask their husbands at home. There was and is reason for this. It's not antiquated thinking or medicine. It's actually needed today to, maybe even more than then.

There is definitely occasion for women who are given the gifts of prophecy and the gifts are equally distributed to men and women. But to be frank, I have not found a woman yet in the Church who has really had something meaningful to say. Mostly, it's been out of inner need to be the "woman who said something."
St. Phoebe and St. Juliana would like a word with you.
 

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orthoreader said:
Arachne said:
orthoreader said:
Arachne said:
orthoreader said:
biro said:
Aram said:
orthoreader said:
Ainnir said:
Catechism and spiritual guidance for women who may not be able to "ask their husbands at home."  Assisting with teen and adult female baptisms; they do happen.  A trained and dedicated Titus 2 woman for the parish, someone who can visit and pray with new moms, single women, etc.  Or to accompany the priest as he visits.  It doesn't have to involve the altar, and it's not a stepping stone to priestesshood.  Women need each other, but many are not steady enough to offer good support, really.  Men often are, but if there is not a husband a woman can turn to, she is left without vital support or put in a situation human weakness can rarely bear.  The role of a deaconess could provide such support without the risk.  Godparents can fill this to some degree, but I doubt are often actually trained.
OK. But is this a need? My priest does every single one of these.
What, he doesn't like competition? Or need more time to do any number of other tasks?

There is much work to do in the church; why not find ways for women to do it, too?
He doesn't think women are good.
Well to some respect, it has to do with women having to be quiet in the Church as St. Paul stated. It's not whether they're "good" or "bad" it's what's required for their salvation. They certainly shouldn't be preaching in any way, shape, or form. I mean, silence is best for everyone, but it has special eschatological significance for women.
Didn't they have to be quiet back in the day?
Today is back in the day, and back in the day is today.
So nothing hindering them. Cool.
Maybe those women who actually practiced modesty in speech and appearance, and were given the gift of prophecy. Would that be you, Wonder Woman? I know it wouldn't be me.
Heh, as if you'd know either way.
 

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biro said:
St. Phoebe and St. Juliana would like a word with you.
Don't forget the myrrh-bearing women who were the first to preach the Gospel; the Theotokos who by her petition moved her Son to turn water to wine; the Syro-Phoenician woman whose persistence, despite being shushed by the Twelve, moved Christ not only to grant her a miracle but to praise her faith; Esther, whose words saved the entire nation of Israel; Elizabeth who wasn't muted for her lack of faith, and who with the infant Saint John the Forerunner first revealed Christ Incarnate in the womb of the Theotokos; the desert mothers, some of whom instructed many...  ;D


orthoreader said:
Well, you know what they say about viewpoints... Interesting thought though. It's funny how we find the liberty to speak and express these viewpoints openly just because we hide behind an avatar or type on a computer, and then call it "defending ourselves" as if they were actually attacked. I'm nothing and no one special, but I wonder how many Deacons, Priests, Bishops have been on here expressing a view of the church and had to endure the disrespect of someone who felt they were being attacked by what the Church actually believes, and then called it a defense after speaking with witty in response? You see what I'm getting at here?

Since what I state was pulled precisely from the Gospels, St. Paul, and then translated and taught by a Golden Mouthed Saint, I feel pretty confident I'm not stepping out of line. Besides, I always start with myself when I speak to these matters. I too need to scale back on my speaking in the Church. What I think, what I believe I have a right to say or express, doesn't really matter.

Perhaps those who were specifically singled out by the Gospels to also follow the same methods should also think about scaling back their mouths and thinking twice about what they have a right too?

Just a suggestion.
I'll give your suggestion and the rest of your posts as much weight as you give my words.  God is Judge.
 

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orthoreader said:
I wonder how many Deacons, Priests, Bishops have been on here expressing a view of the church and had to endure the disrespect of someone who felt they were being attacked by what the Church actually believes, and then called it a defense after speaking with witty in response?
Let me hug you!
 

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If answer the question in the title - all that comes to my mind - is help with the baptism of women and girls. But it can also be entrusted to the godmother, relatives. In general, not need ))
 

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Ainnir said:
biro said:
St. Phoebe and St. Juliana would like a word with you.
Don't forget the myrrh-bearing women who were the first to preach the Gospel; the Theotokos who by her petition moved her Son to turn water to wine; the Syro-Phoenician woman whose persistence, despite being shushed by the Twelve, moved Christ not only to grant her a miracle but to praise her faith; Esther, whose words saved the entire nation of Israel; Elizabeth who wasn't muted for her lack of faith, and who with the infant Saint John the Forerunner first revealed Christ Incarnate in the womb of the Theotokos; the desert mothers, some of whom instructed many...  ;D.
Who?
 

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hecma925 said:
Ainnir said:
biro said:
St. Phoebe and St. Juliana would like a word with you.
Don't forget the myrrh-bearing women who were the first to preach the Gospel; the Theotokos who by her petition moved her Son to turn water to wine; the Syro-Phoenician woman whose persistence, despite being shushed by the Twelve, moved Christ not only to grant her a miracle but to praise her faith; Esther, whose words saved the entire nation of Israel; Elizabeth who wasn't muted for her lack of faith, and who with the infant Saint John the Forerunner first revealed Christ Incarnate in the womb of the Theotokos; the desert mothers, some of whom instructed many...  ;D.
Who?
Got me.  :laugh:  The text says “Canaanite,” but several translations give the passage the heading “The Syrophoenician Woman.”  I guess this latter is what stuck in my head.  But yes, Matthew 15:21 onward.
 

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Ainnir said:
hecma925 said:
Ainnir said:
biro said:
St. Phoebe and St. Juliana would like a word with you.
Don't forget the myrrh-bearing women who were the first to preach the Gospel; the Theotokos who by her petition moved her Son to turn water to wine; the Syro-Phoenician woman whose persistence, despite being shushed by the Twelve, moved Christ not only to grant her a miracle but to praise her faith; Esther, whose words saved the entire nation of Israel; Elizabeth who wasn't muted for her lack of faith, and who with the infant Saint John the Forerunner first revealed Christ Incarnate in the womb of the Theotokos; the desert mothers, some of whom instructed many...  ;D.
Who?
Got me.  :laugh:  The text says “Canaanite,” but several translations give the passage the heading “The Syrophoenician Woman.”  I guess this latter is what stuck in my head.  But yes, Matthew 15:21 onward.
Ah, I see.
 

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Ainnir said:
hecma925 said:
Ainnir said:
biro said:
St. Phoebe and St. Juliana would like a word with you.
Don't forget the myrrh-bearing women who were the first to preach the Gospel; the Theotokos who by her petition moved her Son to turn water to wine; the Syro-Phoenician woman whose persistence, despite being shushed by the Twelve, moved Christ not only to grant her a miracle but to praise her faith; Esther, whose words saved the entire nation of Israel; Elizabeth who wasn't muted for her lack of faith, and who with the infant Saint John the Forerunner first revealed Christ Incarnate in the womb of the Theotokos; the desert mothers, some of whom instructed many...  ;D.
Who?
Got me.  :laugh:  The text says “Canaanite,” but several translations give the passage the heading “The Syrophoenician Woman.”  I guess this latter is what stuck in my head.  But yes, Matthew 15:21 onward.
That peculiar appelation conjures up the image of a pretentious Maronite nationalist.  They should have called her a Canaanite, since the only Syro-Phoenicians I know of are the Maronites, who are a Syriac people, who claim, on little evidence, to be of Phoenician ancestry, despite being in communion with Rome and Carthage being the Phoenician equivalent to Athens.  Carthago delenda est and all that.
 
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