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Are the Anglican or Lutheran churches Apostolic and Sacramental?

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The Catholic Church is often called by Orthodox an Apostolic church because it has kept the sacraments and the apostolic lineage. As well, there is a lot of precedent for Catholics being accepted into Orthodoxy by confession of faith (which implies that they have Valid Sacraments.) What about Anglicans and Lutherans?
 

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From Orthodox Ecclesiological perspective: The Roman, the Oriental, the Anglican, the Assyrian, etc churches are ex-Apostolic churches

Lutheran = no Apostolic pedigree
 

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Finns chrismate Lutherans. And I believe we chrismate Catholics too. A friend converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism few years back and IIRC he was chrismated too.
 

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In Anglo-Catholicism they consider the Scandinavian Lutheran branches to have apostolic succession but Orthodox do not reciprocate that view, if I recall. There was an Orthodox member on the Anglican.net forums who also claimed to be a member of this site, and said that Anglicans were a valid church.
 

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I am an Anglican. Before the 1970's and a lot of Anglicanism went off the rails the Orthodox thought well of us Anglicans. There were some churches who were prepared to accept our Holy Orders. There is no doubt that we have had an unbroken laying on of hands from the Apostles until now. In places like the CoE and the Episcopal Church I do think that this has been broken because of women Bishops but in the Continuing Churches, the Global South, GAFCON Churches, and ACNA there are no woman bishops and our lines have remained intact
 

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In Anglo-Catholicism they consider the Scandinavian Lutheran branches to have apostolic succession but Orthodox do not reciprocate that view, if I recall. There was an Orthodox member on the Anglican.net forums who also claimed to be a member of this site, and said that Anglicans were a valid church.
On the Anglican Forums his name was Liturgyworks
 

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ACNA does have the problem of women serving as presbyters, tiptoed around through allowing Diocese by Diocese "local option" further complicated by geographic dioceses (some of each option) overlaid by affinity dioceses (again, some of each option).
 

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If the Anglican Churches that don’t allow women priests are in communion with the ones that do, the whole apostolic lineage is broken.
 

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I heard that some Anglicans don’t even believe in sacraments, and are basically like Evangelicals, and they are in communion with the ones that do.
 

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I heard that some Anglicans don’t even believe in sacraments, and are basically like Evangelicals, and they are in communion with the ones that do.
You might find a random Anglican who is like that but the church is not.
 

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ACNA does have the problem of women serving as presbyters, tiptoed around through allowing Diocese by Diocese "local option" further complicated by geographic dioceses (some of each option) overlaid by affinity dioceses (again, some of each option).
Yeah that is are last hurdle to get things back in shape. There are more non wo in the ACNA than pro wo in the ACNA and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I do actually think that we will eventually kick the practice. There was a report issued that said there is no scriptural or historical support for woman priests. First step to righting that wrong.
 

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ACNA does have the problem of women serving as presbyters, tiptoed around through allowing Diocese by Diocese "local option" further complicated by geographic dioceses (some of each option) overlaid by affinity dioceses (again, some of each option).
ACNA permits female clergy. I looked into them years back when I was a sufficiently disenchanted Protestant to begin seeking change, but not so convinced as to investigate more liturgical Christianity. One of the two ACNA parishes in my city has a female priest.
 

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The Anglican churches that don’t allow female priests in communion with the ones that do. The whole apostolic lineage is messed up. The Anglican Church here in Canada allows gay marriage, and they are in communion with the Church of England. If you are willingly in communion with a church that blesses sin, you know something’s messed up
 

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If a Holy Synod of an Orthodox Church decided to bless a sin, (which would never happen), the rest of the Orthodox world would excommunicate them immediately
 

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ACNA permits female clergy. I looked into them years back when I was a sufficiently disenchanted Protestant to begin seeking change, but not so convinced as to investigate more liturgical Christianity. One of the two ACNA parishes in my city has a female priest.
That is sad. I am in a diocese that does not allow a female priest and would leave if they ever had a female priest serve my church.
 

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The Anglican churches that don’t allow female priests in communion with the ones that do. The whole apostolic lineage is messed up. The Anglican Church here in Canada allows gay marriage, and they are in communion with the Church of England. If you are willingly in communion with a church that blesses sin, you know something’s messed up
Yeah we don't allow gay marriage nor tolerate it. We were formed against it.
 

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If a Canadian Anglican went to your church, wouldn’t he be allowed to take communion?
 

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We are not in communion with Canterbury. We are also not in communion with the Episcopal Church.
 

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If a Canadian Anglican went to your church, wouldn’t he be allowed to take communion?
My understanding is the ACNA has Open Communion. The only Eucharist of their’s I’ve attended was attended primarily by non-members, as far as I was aware. Every single one of them (including myself, who definitely am not a ANCA member) took Communion.
 

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My understanding is the ACNA has Open Communion. The only Eucharist of their’s I’ve attended was attended primarily by non-members, as far as I was aware. Every single one of them (including myself, who definitely am not a ANCA member) took Communion.
My understanding is the ACNA has Open Communion. The only Eucharist of their’s I’ve attended was attended primarily by non-members, as far as I was aware. Every single one of them (including myself, who definitely am not a ANCA member) took Communion.
We do have open communion. There is guidelines for the priest to deny communion to people though. Not sure how well they are enforced.
 

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In this we are like the Assyrian Church of the East. We only ask that people be Baptized Believers.
 

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I am an Anglican. Before the 1970's and a lot of Anglicanism went off the rails the Orthodox thought well of us Anglicans. There were some churches who were prepared to accept our Holy Orders. There is no doubt that we have had an unbroken laying on of hands from the Apostles until now. In places like the CoE and the Episcopal Church I do think that this has been broken because of women Bishops but in the Continuing Churches, the Global South, GAFCON Churches, and ACNA there are no woman bishops and our lines have remained intact
What theological differences are there, to your knowledge, between your church and Orthodoxy.
Or to keep on track with the discussion, are there any differences concerning how the sacraments are viewed, and the priesthood.
 

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I don't really know. I came here to learn and discuss. We say there are two sacraments in the Bible and there are other sacraments of the church. In total they number 7. They are the same as the Catholic Church. The two sacraments of the Bible are Communion and Baptism. In Communion we believe Christ is present in Communion but there are disagreements on how that is. I believe Jesus is actually present in the bread and wine in some way but is a mystery in how it is. Some of our greatest divines agree with my view.
 

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In Orthodoxy, there is no disagreement about what the sacraments of the church are, nor can there be. We believe that the Holy Body and the Precious blood are truly Christ, and we do not know or try to explain how that that happens, except that the Holy Spirit comes down upon the bread and wine and transforms them. We do not traditionally count 7 Sacraments, but all 7 sacraments that you are alluding to are mentioned in Scripture. But we have no reason not to call, Holy Water, a Sacrament, or even the reading of scripture, since God’s Grace is manifested through a physical means. The Scripture is part of the faith we received, through the church, aka Holy Tradition.
 

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We all agree that Christ is some how present in the the Bread and Wine. We just disagree on how. Is it spiritual or is he also physically present in the bread and wine also. We also leave it up to being a mystery .
 

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Yes we need to hammer things out in a more precise definition of things but after the 70's things fell a part and us faithful and orthodox Anglicans had to fight for our lives basically and have just now started to get things going on the right track again .
 

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That Christ is physically every crumb of the Eucharist is the faith of the Orthodox Church. That is why we are careful not to lose a single crumb. Is your church different in this regard?
 

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No we drink all the wine and we I believe we save the bread. I will have to double check on the bread part but I know the BCP says to drink all of the consecrated wine.
 

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That Christ is physically every crumb of the Eucharist is the faith of the Orthodox Church. That is why we are careful not to lose a single crumb. Is your church different in this regard?
Going again off my own experience, the contents of the Chalice were distributed in tiny plastic cups that were thrown in garbage bags after the Sacrament was consumed. (I am sorry to say that I followed this practice. God, forgive me!)
That practice, and the fact that the priest either didn’t fact check himself when claimed the “yous” in Matt. 16:18-19 were plural in the Greek (every single one in that passage is singular), or willfully lied to the congregation in order to make an argument against the Papacy, scared me away from the ACNA for good.
They’re a hodgepodge of practices and beliefs. In that same Eucharist, the Sacrament was elevated (a rather Catholic practice forbidden by traditional Prayer Books), and yet that same Sacrament was distributed and disposed of like the congregation was sampling a bottle of wine (a rather Puritan practice also forbidden by traditional Prayer Books). The epiclesis is optional, and indeed most parts of the Canon can be moved about or exchanged willynilly to produce as high or low a Eucharistic Theology as wanted. The only unifying thread that can explain why such disparate groups with regards to the Eucharist, and indeed many other things, formed the ACNA, is that they all are against gay marriage, and possibly women bishops. That’s it. They’re just a reactionary splinter group.
 

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I agree with St Hilarion Troitsky

“Outside of her, whatever is called ‘Church’ is a congregation of heretics that have lost the one faith in the one Lord and consequently the baptism which is performed by them is not the Christian baptism.”

also

"..it falls within the scope of her(The church) stewardship and economy to make valid—if she so thinks fit—sacraments administered by non-Orthodox, although such sacraments are no sacraments if considered in themselves and apart from the Orthodox Church.”
 

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To make that clear, I don't recognize the validity of apostolic succession in the Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches.
 

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Going again off my own experience, the contents of the Chalice were distributed in tiny plastic cups that were thrown in garbage bags after the Sacrament was consumed. (I am sorry to say that I followed this practice. God, forgive me!)
That practice, and the fact that the priest either didn’t fact check himself when claimed the “yous” in Matt. 16:18-19 were plural in the Greek (every single one in that passage is singular), or willfully lied to the congregation in order to make an argument against the Papacy, scared me away from the ACNA for good.
They’re a hodgepodge of practices and beliefs. In that same Eucharist, the Sacrament was elevated (a rather Catholic practice forbidden by traditional Prayer Books), and yet that same Sacrament was distributed and disposed of like the congregation was sampling a bottle of wine (a rather Puritan practice also forbidden by traditional Prayer Books). The epiclesis is optional, and indeed most parts of the Canon can be moved about or exchanged willynilly to produce as high or low a Eucharistic Theology as wanted. The only unifying thread that can explain why such disparate groups with regards to the Eucharist, and indeed many other things, formed the ACNA, is that they all are against gay marriage, and possibly women bishops. That’s it. They’re just a reactionary splinter group.
I am sorry you had a bad experiences but the church you were at was out of the norm, breaking the laws put down by the BCP, and should be sanctioned and brought back into correct practice.


When the Priest is assisted by a Deacon or another Priest, it is customary for the presiding Priest to administer the consecrated Bread. The administration of consecrated Bread and Wine by Priests, Deacons and authorized laity shall be determined by the Ordinary.
If the consecrated Bread or Wine does not suffice for the number of communicants, the Celebrant returns to the Holy Table and consecrates more of either or both saying,
“Hear us, O heavenly Father, and with your Word and Holy Spirit bless and sanctify this Bread [Wine] that it, also, may be the Sacrament of the precious Body [Blood] of your Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who took Bread [the Cup] and said, “This is my Body [Blood].”
If any consecrated Bread or Wine remains after the Communion, it may be set aside in a safe place for future reception. Apart from that which is to be set aside, the Priest
or Deacon, and other communicants, reverently consume the remaining consecrated Bread, either after the Ministration of Communion or after the Dismissal. The consecrated Wine shall likewise be consumed, except as authorized and directed by the Bishop.
 

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The Anglicans and Scandinavian Lutherans AFAIK trace their bishops' line of succession to the apostles, although the EOs don't consider them to be legitimate lines because they are outside Orthodoxy.

The Anglicans AFAIK have 7 sacraments. I don't remember offhand if they have Chrismation and unction. Whereas EOs typically only accept the RC and Lutheran view of the Direct, Objective Presence in the Eucharist, the Anglicans include only the Lutheran or Calvinist views on the Eucharist. In fact, the Articles of Religion have an internal contradiction on the point- both two parties (those holding Lutheran and Calvinist views) tried to put their own position in the Articles while also negating their opponents' views. So for instance, In one part the Lutheran view is expounded, whereas in another, it is rejected. The rejection of the Lutheran view is expressed in the article that says that the unworthy do not eat Christ's body when they eat the Eucharist bread. The point of that article was to de facto make the idea of "eating" Christ's body to mean something purely nonphysical, so that Christ's body is meant to be "eaten" only by the worthy and only in a "spiritualistic"/ ie. virtual sense. The Lutheran party in contrast said that since Christ is in the bread, then both the worthy and unworthy chew it. This inner conflict in Anglicanism on the topic of the Real Presence has never been actually recognized and openly addressed by the C.O.E. De facto what happened is that both parties accepted the other ones' members as legitimate Anglicans. So eg. as to whether the Anglican Church and its bishops accepted you, it didn't matter as to which view you held on the Real Presence.

As far as sacraments, the Lutherans have 7, but they call 4 of them ordinances, not sacraments. And instead of Chrismation, they have Confirmation. Lutheranism teaches that Christ is directly and objectively present in the bread in Spirit form like when He passed through the locked door to appear to the disciples. I take this to be like the view of Pope Gelasius, who considered the Eucharist food to have both the substance of Bread and the substance of His body. This was a sticking point that Luther had against the Calvinists, who believed that Jesus could not be directly, objectively present in the bread.
 

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Has a group maintained for over nineteen centuries the apostolic faith as it was delivered, transmitting it generation by generation? Then it's apostolic. Has the group in any way fallen short of that? Then it's not apostolic, unless it was directly gifted it (e.g. missionized) by an apostolic Church at a later date or found it's way back to the apostolic faith after being lost and the return was recognized/solemnized by the apostolic Church. orthodoxy isn't like a school test: get 70% of the answers correct and you pass. And apostolic succession isn't just some conga line stretching back through history.
 
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