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Are the Anglican or Lutheran churches Apostolic and Sacramental?

Alpo2

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Lutheranism teaches that Christ is directly and objectively present in the bread in Spirit form like when He passed through the locked door to appear to the disciples.
I guess there might be Lutherans who believe like that too but to be fair that's not the official partyline. This is from Wikipedia but I believe it's pretty accurate.

 

rakovsky

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I guess there might be Lutherans who believe like that too but to be fair that's not the official partyline. This is from Wikipedia but I believe it's pretty accurate.

How is that in conflict with what I said? I made that summary after reading Luther and Lutherans on the topic.

You quoted from Wikipedia, which says Lutherans affirm "the doctrine of sacramental union, "in which the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially (vere et substantialiter) present, offered, and received with the bread and wine."
For Luther, it's not just with the bread, but in and under it.
 

Alpo2

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Could be my misunderstanding. I thought that that "in spirit form" implied something like Calvinist understanding of Eucharist.
 

Lutheran1

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Hi, you guys. Here's something from the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod website that speaks to the importance of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper.


QUESTION: In Communion, do we commune with the sacrificed body and blood of Jesus, or do we commune with the resurrected body and blood of Jesus?

ANSWER: The answer to your question is that we receive in, with, and under the bread and wine the true body and blood of Christ shed on the cross, Jesus Christ Who is now risen and ascended and sits at the right hand of God the Father.

He is the same Christ, and when he gave us the Sacrament, as the Lutheran Confessions affirm, "he was speaking of his true, essential body, which he gave into death for us, and of his true, essential blood, which was poured out for us on the tree of the cross for the forgiveness of sins" (Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration VII, 49).

In the Sacrament, our Confessions further teach the same Jesus who died is present in the Sacrament, although not in exactly the same way he was corporeally present when he walked bodily on earth.

With Luther, the Formula of Concord speaks of "the incomprehensible, spiritual mode of presence according to which he neither occupies nor yields space but passes through everything created as he wills ... He employed this mode of presence when he left the closed grave and came through closed doors, in the bread and wine in the Supper ..." [FC SD VII, 100; emphasis added]. Doctrine - Frequently Asked Questions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (lcms.org)


I happen to believe that the Anglican and Lutheran Churches are in fact Apostolic and Sacramental and for those who are interested, here's a link to the Confessional principles of the LCMS. Statement of Scriptural and Confessional Principles - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (lcms.org)
 

rakovsky

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Could be my misunderstanding. I thought that that "in spirit form" implied something like Calvinist understanding of Eucharist.
There have been Anglicans for centuries who haven't taught any literal direct Presence but have used confusing language that makes it sound like they teach a direct Objective Presence like Lutherans, RCs, and EOs do. For instance, they (eg. Bp. Nicholas Ridley, a leading founding Anglican) say they accept the Real Presence, but when they explain it, they mean the Calvinist idea, and for them "real" means "effective", ie that it has the same effect AS IF it was present. Another of the confusing phrases iirc is that they say that Jesus' body is "spiritually" present, meaning that it is present in terms of spirituality, not that it is directly present. In their idea, Jesus' body literally stays in heaven and is not directly on the table. So they have had evasive or misleading language.

In contrast, Lutheranism has used the term "spirit mode" to mean that Jesus' body is directly and objectively present like after the Resurrection when it did things like a Spirit would, eg. go through walls. His body can be in the Eucharist like it was in the walls or door on Easter Sunday.

The Lutheran Concord declaration mentions several direct, literal, objective modes for Jesus' body, and specifies that in the Eucharist, His body is in the second mode. It talks more about this mode, saying that it's the mode that spirits have. ("Secondly, the incomprehensible, spiritual mode, ... This mode He used ... in the bread and wine in the Holy Supper, ")
 

JTLoganville

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The classic Anglican phrase used by the Priest at the Distribution is ambiguous to say the least. In parish practice the entire phrase is not spoken in full to each Communicant but "spread" over several.

There are two sentences. The first is Lutheran and small "o" orthodox; the second is Calvanism verging on Zwinglianism:

The body of Christ which was given for you bless and preserve your soul unto everlasting life.
Take, eat, and feed on Him in your heart and be thankful.
 

rakovsky

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There are two sentences. The first is Lutheran and small "o" orthodox; the second is Calvanism verging on Zwinglianism:

The body of Christ which was given for you bless and preserve your soul unto everlasting life.
Take, eat, and feed on Him in your heart and be thankful.
Good point. Those two statements are general enough that they are not necessarily in conflict with each other, or for that matter even in conflict with Catholicism, but the second is the kind of thing that the "virtual presence" Anglicans say. Their idea is that the feeding is only in the heart, ie. virtual.
 
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