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As "denomination" is defined in English, each Orthodox jurisdiction is a denomination.

PeterTheAleut

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ialmisry said:
PeterTheAleut said:
ialmisry said:
The Orthodox Church which has so used the term in any Orthodox document,  Orthodox literature etc in English that I have seen.  If I've missed something, do please let me know.

Catholicity and the church By John Meyendorff
http://books.google.com/books?id=vc-ZC7B3v80C&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=orthodoxy+denomination+meyendorff&source=bl&ots=OOusjfTbzi&sig=ZsVb_2PfCDYOUxcviGVQcBXd8cg&hl=en&ei=A_1nTZGuG8rGgAfw3IjMCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Living tradition: orthodox witness in the contemporary world By John Meyendorff
http://books.google.com/books?id=72QXSflRMqcC&pg=PA185&lpg=PA185&dq=orthodoxy+denomination+meyendorff&source=bl&ots=kIj4lXU427&sig=Q5Gd8Nf-mkFm57pSQ8ZvwLqQixU&hl=en&ei=A_1nTZGuG8rGgAfw3IjMCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.incommunion.org/2004/10/24/meyendorff-on-ecumenism/
You do realize that all three of these links point to material written by one Fr. John Meyendorff?
Yes, hence the phrase "By John Meyendorff."  According to Mr. Webster, "by" indicated the author of a work. I know that you have decided that Webster doesn't define English (or perhaps not to your liking), but I'm going to go along with the US courts and other institutions who stand by it (according to Mr. Webster, that means "in conformity with").
That's all good if you intend only to convince yourself that you're right. However, if you're trying to prove your point to other people, such as our esteemed Keble, you're now putting yourself in position to have to convince him why he needs to hold so firmly to a particular authority (i.e., Webster's Dictionary) on the definitions of the words you use.

ialmisry said:
PeterTheAleut said:
You also realize that, despite the admiration you and I share for the theologian, he, together with his contemporary Fr. Alexander Schmemann, is a rather controversial figure among many Orthodox?
Yes. So was St. Athanasius, who was exiled five times, and became a proverb Athanasius contra mundi. And St. Miletius, over whom a schism split the Church from Antioch all the way to Rome.  And St. Flavian.  And SS. Ignatius and Photios.  And St. Gregory Palamas.  And SS. Nilus and Joseph.

Was there a reason why you brought that up?
Yes. To support my point that Fr. Meyendorff isn't the Church.

ialmisry said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Even if Fr. Meyendorff wasn't so controversial, he is only one theologian among many. I would therefore hardly commend him as truly representative of the Orthodox Church based solely on his own authority.
Well, if someone can find another Orthodox theologian who dealt with the term "denomination," I'm all ears.
Well, you seem to be a whole lot of mouth right now, and not very convincing.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Aposphet said:
Peter I'm just curious but why do you have this knack on trying to pick a fight with something you don't like to read?
I'm having trouble deciphering where you get this idea that I don't like reading something. What is it I'm picking a fight with? What is it I don't like to read? ???
 

Keble

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Iconodule said:
I'm still trying to figure out what the point of this entire discussion is.
Well, the point back before this turned into an argument about Anglican churches (which I suppose I'm a bit guilty of inciting) was that the distinction between "jurisdictions" and "denominations" is to a degree fictitious and is maintained out of a sense of Orthodox triumphalism. People would have preferred the person from Hellenic College to have used one word over the other but they weren't inaccurate in using the word.



Unnecessarily vulgar expression replaced with something more appropriate  -PtA
 

Irish Hermit

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ialmisry said:
Keble said:
As "denomination" is defined in English, each Orthodox jurisdiction is a denomination.
No.  Since the jurisdictions all hold the same beliefs, they are not denominations.
The innovative American use of the word "Jurisdiction" to mean "Church" has no place in the Tradition, neither canons nor patristics.  It should not be used, even though its use is now endemic among the English-speaking American Orthodox.
 

ialmisry

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Irish Hermit said:
ialmisry said:
Keble said:
As "denomination" is defined in English, each Orthodox jurisdiction is a denomination.
No.  Since the jurisdictions all hold the same beliefs, they are not denominations.
The innovative American use of the word "Jurisdiction" to mean "Church" has no place in the Tradition, neither canons nor patristics.  It should not be used, even though its use is now endemic among the English-speaking American Orthodox.
Well, that is appropos as the OCA is the only Orthodox Church which has English as its liturgical/official language: the official explanation now of why Met. Jonah is not on the Executive Committee of the Episcopal Assembly is that the OCA is a Mother Church (which the official spokemen hasten to add "in its self definition") and not a jurisdiction.

It's not totally without precedent, Faher.  I think ἐξουσία is so used, and such problems do come up, e.g. the centuries long struggle of the Patriarch of Jerusalem vis-a-vis the Abbot-Archbishop of Sinai.  I'm not sure of the terminology of the conflict between Old Rome, New Rome and the Bulgarians, which was the early version of this "diaspora" battle.  The first instance I can think off the top of my head was the jurisdiction of the Pope of Alexandria over the Pentapolis in Libya (the Pope just announced that the bishop there has announced he will not leave as long as any Orthodox remain), which promopted canon 6 of Nicea I.
 

ialmisry

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Keble said:
Iconodule said:
I'm still trying to figure out what the point of this entire discussion is.
Well, the point back before this turned into a pissing contest about Anglican churches (which I suppose I'm a bit guilty of inciting) was that the distinction between "jurisdictions" and "denominations" is to a degree fictitious and is maintained out of a sense of Orthodox triumphalism. People would have preferred the person from Hellenic College to have used one word over the other but they weren't inaccurate in using the word.
What person from Hellenic College?
 

Achronos

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May I ask you an honest question Keble?

My condo complex is right next to an Episcopal church and they have a big banner that says "Meditation Evening, All are welcome!"..uhh since when did churches start bringing paganism into them? They do this every 2 weeks, so you get into some yoga formation?
 

Keble

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There is a long line of Catholic mystics who would dispute that meditation per se is unChristian, and most western analysis would consider repetitive prayer practices to be a kind of meditation. OTOH it is clear that at least some of the interest in meditation is inspired by far eastern religion.

Interestingly, I saw an article the other day to the effect that hatha yoga has nothing to do with Hinduism (though it does have some tenuous connection to Indian fakir magic) and is essentially a modern invention with no real religious content.
 

ialmisry

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Keble said:
Maybe you saw something, and maybe you misremember it, but in any case, it isn't out there now. A supposed alteration to one of the defining (so to speak  ;) ) reference works of our time, and there's no trace of it now: you're just a guy on a forum making yet another outlandish claim, with nothing to back it up but your own word, and given your complete lack of any inclination to put some substance behind it, nobody should believe your claim. Really, they ought to believe that it's untrue.

I'm uninterested in your claims of Orthodox exceptionalism and your snide comeback about my church. Overlapping jurisdictions, when it comes to that, have been an aberration in Anglicanism for a matter of a couple of years, not decade after decade as has been the case in Orthodoxy. In that wise, you stand in a glass house, stone in hand.
I knew one day I'd come across something on the Soviets being allowed to change the definitions of the OED, and so I have:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3aFlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uYwNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1152,3429441&dq=marxism+main+laws+of+development+of+nature+and+society&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1821&dat=19850409&id=zUstAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mp0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3477,5210427
When is propaganda simply information and capitalism a system "based on the exploitation of man by man?"  Answer: When Soviet editors redefine words in two products by the guardians of the English language-the publishers of the Oxford English Dictionary....."I suppose those justifying what we've done here would say, 'well, we've aligned, at Russian request, these words to the usage of that country.'  I think that we should have said in the dictionary something to the effect that, 'in Marxist doctrine, Capitalism means such and such, or Socialism means such and such," and not done it quite so badly," said Richardson
Marxism, in "this edition...the OUP (Oxford University Press) sanctions...for sale only in the U.S.S.R." (so stating in English and Russian in each copy ""clearly marked 'special edition for the U.S.S.R.'"), means "teaching on the main laws of development of nature and society," opposed to the OED outside of the Soviet Union defining Marxism as pertaining to, or characteristic of...the doctrines of Karl Marx."
The date, April 9, 1985, matches how I recollected the report I read (no, it wasn't this one, but the facts are similar as I remembered them). It also explains the dearth of information on: it predates the net, and came very close to the fall of the Soviet Union, when such things were no longer in demand, one should think.
 

ialmisry

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ialmisry said:
Keble said:
Maybe you saw something, and maybe you misremember it, but in any case, it isn't out there now. A supposed alteration to one of the defining (so to speak  ;) ) reference works of our time, and there's no trace of it now: you're just a guy on a forum making yet another outlandish claim, with nothing to back it up but your own word, and given your complete lack of any inclination to put some substance behind it, nobody should believe your claim. Really, they ought to believe that it's untrue.

I'm uninterested in your claims of Orthodox exceptionalism and your snide comeback about my church. Overlapping jurisdictions, when it comes to that, have been an aberration in Anglicanism for a matter of a couple of years, not decade after decade as has been the case in Orthodoxy. In that wise, you stand in a glass house, stone in hand.
I knew one day I'd come across something on the Soviets being allowed to change the definitions of the OED, and so I have:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3aFlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uYwNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1152,3429441&dq=marxism+main+laws+of+development+of+nature+and+society&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1821&dat=19850409&id=zUstAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mp0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3477,5210427
When is propaganda simply information and capitalism a system "based on the exploitation of man by man?"  Answer: When Soviet editors redefine words in two products by the guardians of the English language-the publishers of the Oxford English Dictionary....."I suppose those justifying what we've done here would say, 'well, we've aligned, at Russian request, these words to the usage of that country.'  I think that we should have said in the dictionary something to the effect that, 'in Marxist doctrine, Capitalism means such and such, or Socialism means such and such," and not done it quite so badly," said Richardson
Marxism, in "this edition...the OUP (Oxford University Press) sanctions...for sale only in the U.S.S.R." (so stating in English and Russian in each copy ""clearly marked 'special edition for the U.S.S.R.'"), means "teaching on the main laws of development of nature and society," opposed to the OED outside of the Soviet Union defining Marxism as pertaining to, or characteristic of...the doctrines of Karl Marx."
The date, April 9, 1985, matches how I recollected the report I read (no, it wasn't this one, but the facts are similar as I remembered them). It also explains the dearth of information on: it predates the net, and came very close to the fall of the Soviet Union, when such things were no longer in demand, one should think.
A nice little blurb on this redefinition for propaganda (and not in the sense of "simple information") purposes can be found now here:
Symposium on Lexicography XI: Proceedings of the Eleventh International Symposium on Lexiconography "Ideology in Dictionaries: Definitions of Political Terms" by Andrejs Veisbergs:
This affected also special editions of Western dictionaries published in the USSR. Many political entries in the Soviet edition of Homby's learner's dictionary (Oxford 1982) were rewritten.
edited by Henrik Gottlieb, Jens Erik Mogensen, Arne Zetterste
http://books.google.com/books?id=wDnr0pKRQvEC&pg=PA542&dq=Marxism+%22teaching+on+the+main+laws+of+development+of+nature+and+society%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J9PIULHVG8Ga2AW5-oCwBQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Marxism%20%22teaching%20on%20the%20main%20laws%20of%20development%20of%20nature%20and%20society%22&f=false
 

sprtslvr1973

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ialmisry said:
Keble said:
As "denomination" is defined in English, each Orthodox jurisdiction is a denomination.
No.  Since the jurisdictions all hold the same beliefs, they are not denominations.
+ 1 (belatedly)
 

JamesR

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If Protestants can say that Christianity is not a religion but a "relationship! :)" then we Orthodox can say that Orthodoxy is predenominational.
 
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