The Spirit is descended!
Αριστοκλής said:
Quit the dodge, Isa. You used a specious map which supports your erroneous assertion to back up the correct quote.
What specious map?
I assUme that you have no problem with the map of Assuwa, Lydia and the Persian Empire.
The 2 three continent maps (the one labeled "Eratosthenes and Strabo" and the one beloe it-I take that you are not calling the modern equivalent next to them on the right specious) I picked only because they are somewhat clear, although modern representations from the old texts. I could have posted any number of ancient/medieval examples of T and O maps (the technical term for them) as described by Erastosthenes and Strabo, and summarized by St. Isodore whom I quoted.
The names "S[h]em," "[C]Ham," and "I/Jaf/pheth" refer to the Table of Nations from the sons of Noah (Gen. 10) imposed on the T and O map. "Oriens" marks Asia as "the East." Such schematic representations are common in manuscripts, as detailed maps would of course increase the price of a copy of Strabo, for instance (what is above is the earliest printed version, 1472). Very few maps survive from the age of the fathers (we'll get to the one I posted). Here is the Hereford example (1300)
but it doesn't post clearly. But here:
1 - The Paradise, surrounded by a wall and a ring of fire.
2 - The Ganges and its delta.
3 - The fabulous island of Taphana, sometimes interpreted as Sri Lanka or Sumatra.
4 - Rivers Indus and Tigris.
5 - The Caspian Sea, and the land of Gog and Magog
6 - Babylon and the Euphrates.
7 - The Persian Gulf.
8 - The Red Sea (painted in red).
9 - Noah's Ark.
10 - The Dead Sea, Sodom and Gomorrah, with the River Jordan, coming from the Sea of Galilee; above: Lot's wife.
11 - Egypt with the River Nile.
12 - The River Nile (?), or possibly an allusion to the equatorial ocean; far outside: a land of mutants, possibly the Antipodes.
13 - The Azov Sea with rivers Don and Dnjepr; above: the Golden Fleece.
14 - Constantinople; left of it the Danube's delta.
15 - The Aegean Sea.
16 - Oversized delta of the Nile with Alexandria's Lighthouse.
17 - The legendary Norwegian Gansmir, with his skis and ski pole.
18 - Greece with Mt. Olympus, Athens and Corinth
19 - Misplaced Crete with the Minotaur's circular labyrinth.
20 - The Adriatic Sea; Italy with Rome, honoured by a popular hexameter: Roma caput mundi tenet orbis frena rotundi (Rome, the head, holds the reins of the world).
21 - Sicily and Carthage, opposing Rome, right of it.
22 - Scotland.
23 - England.
24 - Ireland.
25 - The Balearic Islands.
26 - The Strait of Gibraltar (the Pillars of Hercules).
It doesn't show the geographical knowledge of its day (the Caspian, flowing into the world ocean, was known to be land locked in 1255), but was based on earlier authorities like Saint Beatus of Liébana, who lived in the days of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, around which time he wrote his Commentary of the Apocolypse and included in it a world map, to show the missions of the Apostles. Here is a copy of his work done c. 1050, around the time of the Great Schism.
Another MSS example of a T and O map is this one from 1255. If you go to the link and blow it up, you can see the orb that Christ holds has the T in the O
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Psalter_World_Map%2C_c.1265.jpg
A slightly different one, a "Y map" is this 3.6m x 3.6m map painted on 30 goat skins
has the East on top, and text around it commenting on the tripartite division of the world.
Here is an Arab cousin (900s), based on the same information (Ptolemy, etc.: Africa is on top, Europe bottom right)
But most maps have to be reconstructed from the details from texts, like Anaximander (c. 610 – 546 BC)
and Hecataeus of Miletus (c. 550 – 476 BC), who survives in the quotations in the Ethnika of Stephanus Byzantinus, who wrote during the height of New Rome under the Justinians.
and then Eratosthenes (276 – 194 BC), whose work extended Asia in line with the increase knowledge from Alexander's campaigns to incorporate the Persian Empire into his own, and the succeeding information brought in by Hellenism
And Posidonius (c. 150 – 130 BC), who calculated the circumference of the world, based on Erastosthenes' observations in Egypt, rather near the present value (24,000 miles, versus 24,901)
And then Strabo (c.64 BC – 24 AD), who walked the Roman earth when Our Lord did. His work seems to have included only maps of Europe, but the details he gives on the rest of the world can reconstruct how he envisioned the globe:
(notice the similarity to the Tabula below)
So either this is a very great conspiracy, or the maps I posted aren't specious. The colored one just clearly shows what the texts say: e.g. Asia starts at the Tanais i.e. the Don.
The next group of maps, the disjointed ancient ones and the modern equivalents, are the only know representation of the Romanus cursus publicus (δημόσιος δρόμος, the "All Roads Lead to Rome"), which Eusebius tells us played a large role in the gathering of the bishops to Nicea for the First Ecumenical Council. The original was made drawn up by Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa in the days of Augustus Caesar and done in marble near the Ara Pacis, the altar commemorating the founding of the Pax Romana, in Rome. This surviving copy, the Tabula Peutingeriana, is the only known descendent of that map, which was the map the Fathers used in/on Ecumenical Council: it shows no revisions after the 300's, by the time of the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus (431) at the latest. As I said, it is how the Romans, and the Fathers of the Councils, saw the world.
http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch3_images/img_16a.gif
http://www.euratlas.net/cartogra/peutinger/segmenta_peutingeriana.jpg
You can see it up close in detail, with the links I provided above to euratlas, or go here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/TabulaPeutingeriana.jpg
The last map uses this and other maps to chart the Diocese of the East, which Antioch at first was capital and see (it was also capital briefly of the Diocese of Aegyptus, i.e. Egypt-in fact at the time of Nicea I
but the Pope of Alexandria was never under the Patriarch of Antioch). The Praefectura Praetorio Orientis/ἔπαρχότητα/ὑπαρχία τῶν πραιτωρίων τῆς
ἀνατολῆς cf. Anatolia, came out of the Tetrarchy, the Empire upon which the Fathers organized the Early Church (hence "dioceses").
settled at New Rome according to the Notitia Dignatorum thus in the four pretorian prefects
Constantinople, existing at Nicea only as the Apostolic See of Byzantium suffragan to Heracleia (who still enthrones the EP), didn't have anything. Nicomedia and Nicea served as residence of the August, but Antioch remained the capital, which Rome had for centuries preened as its alter ego in the East. The Diocese of the East (Dioecesis Orientis Ἐῴα Διοίκησις) was under the Comtes Orientis, who ranked with the Praetorians of the other Prefectures, sharing authority with the senior Augustus in the Prefecture of the East. Hence, when Constantinople was given in canon 28 of Chalcedon the jurisdiction to match the Emperor's, the Fathers gave her the rest of the Praefeture of the East, i.e. the Dioceses Pontus, Asia and Thrace, going from the Diocese of the East, which remained under Antioch:
Everywhere following the decrees of the Holy Fathers, and aware of the recently recognized Canon of the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops who convened during the reign of Theodosius the Great of pious memory, who became emperor in the imperial city of Constantinople otherwise known as New Rome; we too decree and vote the same things in regard to the privileges and priorities of the most holy Church of that same Constantinople and New Rome. And this is in keeping with the fact that the Fathers naturally enough granted the priorities to the throne of Old Rome on account of her being the imperial capital. And motivated by the same object and aim the one hundred and fifty most God-beloved Bishops have accorded the like priorities to the most holy throne of New Rome, with good reason deeming that the city which is the seat of an empire, and of a senate, and is equal to old imperial Rome in respect of other privileges and priorities, should be magnified also as she is in respect of ecclesiastical affairs, as coming next after her, or as being second to her. And it is arranged so that only the Metropolitans of the Pontic, Asian, and Thracian dioceses shall be ordained by the most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople aforesaid, and likewise the Bishops of the aforesaid dioceses which are situated in barbarian lands; that is to say, that each Metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the Bishops of the province, shall ordain the Bishops of the province, just as is prescribed by the divine Canons. But the Metropolitans of the aforesaid dioceses, as has been said, are to be ordained by the Archbishop of Constantinople, after the elections have first been conducted in accordance with custom, and have been reported to him.
The borders of the Dioces of the East can be seen in the maps east of the Diocese of Pontus and the Diocese of Asia, both in Asia Minor with the Western Part of the Diocese of the East, but not in the map of the Diocese of Thrace, which was not in Asia, but in Europe. As a reminder, the Diocese of the East
ialmisry said:
The second box from the left in the ancient Roman patristic map, the seated figure, is Antioch, as in "Antioch and All the East," i.e. all the rest to the East/right, per the canon of Nicea reflecting the civil diocese the East:
includes the "rest of Asia [which, as we can see above, not only refered to the Diocese of Asia, but the rest of the continent that stretched from it Eastwards] beyond Syria," e.g. Osrhoene (Edessa, suffragan of Antioch), Mesopotamia. Armenia, Georgia and Albania, outside the Empire, were within the sphere of the Patriarch of Antioch, as was Persia and India, also shown on the map. The maps do not show China. Moscow first evangelized her for the Orthodox Church.
Soooo. "The rest of Asia beyond Syria" means the same for us as it did the Fathers, except we know about China (and Japan, also evangelized by the Russians and part of Moscow's Patriarch. In fact, its native Japanese Metropolitan at one time was the most popular candidate for Patriarch of Moscow, right after Pat. Alexei II of blessed memory reposed). And except for our "Far East," and Constantinople's share of the Prefecture of the East, our definitions of "the East" correspond as well.
Αριστοκλής said:
Typical of your online argumentative style, and you know it.
Unless you can tie this directly to the ACROD search for a new bishop, end of discussion for me.
As in "where is ACROD going to get a new bishop," since we do know they will not get one from Amissos, and Johnston is nowhere near the Dioceses of Thrace, Asia or Pontus? They obviously do not have a shortage in ACROD, since the OCA just benefited twice from ACROD having candidates. Could the OCA repay the favor? Somehow I don't see the Phanar allowing that, and given the Phanar's interference in ACROD's mother Church in the Czech Lands and Slovakia, I don't know if that is a source either.