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Attending Mass...

celticfan1888

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What should I do when I attend mass with my girlfriend? Last few times I have just sat there patiently. Is that the right thing to do, considering they are "outside of The Church"?
 

Asteriktos

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I think many people would almost be more understanding of someone being non-religious and not going, as opposed to not going because you think Orthodoxy is superior or the real Church or whatever. You know best how she'd respond, but consider whether you might poison the waters by taking a hard or rigid stance. Also, it's not like you've been Orthodox and confessing and communing and such for a decade and suddenly have this situation come upon you... I think you have more flexibility with how you can respond here.
 

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celticfan1888 said:
Michał Kalina said:
Why did you go?
Because she's my girlfriend and Im slowly working on her conversion...
You going to her church isn't going to convinve her of the truth of yours.

That being said, don't commune, don't say the filioque when reciting the creed, be respectful.

Just my opinion.
 

celticfan1888

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Melodist said:
celticfan1888 said:
Michał Kalina said:
Why did you go?
Because she's my girlfriend and Im slowly working on her conversion...
You going to her church isn't going to convinve her of the truth of yours.

That being said, don't commune, don't say the filioque when reciting the creed, be respectful.


Just my opinion.
I follow those guidelines.
 

kurtismjohnson

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I dont see a problem with going, but Im also not Orthodox yet.  I attended a "contemporary mass" tonight because I play guitar for them when they need me.  I obviously cant commune and I dont say the filioque.  Other than that, its a different, yet pleasant service for me.  I really love the people there. 

Yea, just be respectful.  I would imagine it wouldnt be good to just not go and to say things like your church is superior...  It may be, but saying things like that might eventually leave you without a girlfriend!!  ;D
 

BTRAKAS

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Yes, just sit there patiently, that's what I did when I was in your circumstances. (Sometimes I'd pick up a book from the pew and read it--it's interesting what they say in the missal about Orthodox Christians.)  But, why don't you see if she'll attend the Divine Liturgy with you periodically?  (My brother is happily married to a Roman Catholic, they rotate which church they attend weekly, pretty much.)
 

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There isn't any coherent guidelines besides just sitting without praying or doing anything else. I attended confessional Lutheran mass yesterday and tried to follow "no communion and no Filioque" guideline. Everything went fine until Our Father which I found myself being unable to pray with them.
 

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The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
 

Asteriktos

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Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Or they might grow up to learn to respect different religions and cultures, and realise that they must choose for themselves what they believe rather than having their parents force a certain set of beliefs on them.
 

celticfan1888

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* I don't recite the creed or pray with them at all, of course. Just wanted to point that out.
 
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Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Ya know it's real easy to sit back and make judgments when it's not your life.
 

celticfan1888

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Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Did you read my second post? Maybe you should.

Im slowly working on her conversion
I have decided what I believe, I'm just not going to be a jerk, I'm going to help her find the path to Orthodoxy over time, you can't expect her to convert immediately.
 
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celticfan1888 said:
I have decided what I believe, I'm just not going to be a jerk, I'm going to help her find the path to Orthodoxy over time, you can't expect her to convert immediately.
If your goal is to avoid being a jerk (and you seem like a nice guy), I would not "expect" your girlfriend to convert at all. Share with her your faith, live your life in accordance with your faith, and let God do the rest.

To continue in the relationship with the expectation that someday she will abandon her Catholic beliefs in favor of Orthodoxy is not only unfair, it is wrong. It is dismissive of the depth of her belief, and it also belittles her faith.

If you are uncomfortable dating someone who may remain Catholic for the rest of her life (and therefore, the tenure of your relationship), I would suggest breaking off the relationship now.

FWIW, I'm currently in a relationship with an agnostic. I accept his beliefs, he accepts mine. Although he attends Liturgy with me, I hold no expectation of him converting. That is between him and God. So I do know where you are coming from.
 

celticfan1888

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HandmaidenofGod said:
celticfan1888 said:
I have decided what I believe, I'm just not going to be a jerk, I'm going to help her find the path to Orthodoxy over time, you can't expect her to convert immediately.
If your goal is to avoid being a jerk (and you seem like a nice guy), I would not "expect" your girlfriend to convert at all. Share with her your faith, live your life in accordance with your faith, and let God do the rest.

To continue in the relationship with the expectation that someday she will abandon her Catholic beliefs in favor of Orthodoxy is not only unfair, it is wrong. It is dismissive of the depth of her belief, and it also belittles her faith.

If you are uncomfortable dating someone who may remain Catholic for the rest of her life (and therefore, the tenure of your relationship), I would suggest breaking off the relationship now.

FWIW, I'm currently in a relationship with an agnostic. I accept his beliefs, he accepts mine. Although he attends Liturgy with me, I hold no expectation of him converting. That is between him and God. So I do know where you are coming from.
You kind of took what I said out of context.  ;)

I dont expect on her to convert, but I expect on her to learn about Orthodoxy, so she can atleast make an educated decision about it. No, I wouldn't leave her if she stayed RC, that'd be pretty shallow, but I atleast want to introduce it to her so she atleast knows what it is.

See. :)
 

J Michael

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celticfan1888 said:
HandmaidenofGod said:
celticfan1888 said:
I have decided what I believe, I'm just not going to be a jerk, I'm going to help her find the path to Orthodoxy over time, you can't expect her to convert immediately.
If your goal is to avoid being a jerk (and you seem like a nice guy), I would not "expect" your girlfriend to convert at all. Share with her your faith, live your life in accordance with your faith, and let God do the rest.

To continue in the relationship with the expectation that someday she will abandon her Catholic beliefs in favor of Orthodoxy is not only unfair, it is wrong. It is dismissive of the depth of her belief, and it also belittles her faith.

If you are uncomfortable dating someone who may remain Catholic for the rest of her life (and therefore, the tenure of your relationship), I would suggest breaking off the relationship now.

FWIW, I'm currently in a relationship with an agnostic. I accept his beliefs, he accepts mine. Although he attends Liturgy with me, I hold no expectation of him converting. That is between him and God. So I do know where you are coming from.
You kind of took what I said out of context.  ;)

I dont expect on her to convert, but I expect on her to learn about Orthodoxy, so she can atleast make an educated decision about it. No, I wouldn't leave her if she stayed RC, that'd be pretty shallow, but I atleast want to introduce it to her so she atleast knows what it is.

See. :)
You wrote, "...Im slowly working on her conversion..."  Pretty easy to infer an expectation there.  And to "expect" her to learn about Orthodoxy....really??  Hope it's not one of those, "If you **really** love me..." things!
 

Maria

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Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Or worse.

A friend of mine converted from Roman Catholicism and was a member of the OCA. Although her children were baptized Orthodox Christians, and attended the OCA Sunday school, they also attended a sedevacante Catholic Church during the week where her son served as an altar boy. He was also an altar server in the OCA. Talk about confusing a cute little boy.

So one day at the OCA Sunday school, her five-year old son responded: I am Orthodox Christian and Roman Catholic.
The little kindergarten boys responded, "You cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox."
The little five-year son replied, "Oh, yes I can. In fact, I receive Holy Communion in both churches.
The little kindergarten boys shouted, "You heretic," and then proceeded to beat up the little boy.

The mother pulled her children out of the Sunday School and the OCA, and immediately joined the sedevacante Catholic Church.
 

Asteriktos

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Maria said:
Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Or worse.

A friend of mine converted from Roman Catholicism and was a member of the OCA. Although her children were baptized Orthodox Christians, and attended the OCA Sunday school, they also attended a sedevacante Catholic Church during the week where her son served as an altar boy. He was also an altar server in the OCA. Talk about confusing a cute little boy.

So one day at the OCA Sunday school, her five-year old son responded: I am Orthodox Christian and Roman Catholic.
The little kindergarten boys responded, "You cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox."
The little five-year son replied, "Oh, yes I can. In fact, I receive Holy Communion in both churches.
The little kindergarten boys shouted, "You heretic," and then proceeded to beat up the little boy.

The mother pulled her children out of the Sunday School and the OCA, and immediately joined the sedevacante Catholic Church.
Your anecdote says more about the adults involved than it does the practice of participating in two different groups.
 

J Michael

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Maria said:
Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Or worse.

A friend of mine converted from Roman Catholicism and was a member of the OCA. Although her children were baptized Orthodox Christians, and attended the OCA Sunday school, they also attended a sedevacante Catholic Church during the week where her son served as an altar boy. He was also an altar server in the OCA. Talk about confusing a cute little boy.

So one day at the OCA Sunday school, her five-year old son responded: I am Orthodox Christian and Roman Catholic.
The little kindergarten boys responded, "You cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox."
The little five-year son replied, "Oh, yes I can. In fact, I receive Holy Communion in both churches.
The little kindergarten boys shouted, "You heretic," and then proceeded to beat up the little boy.

The mother pulled her children out of the Sunday School and the OCA, and immediately joined the sedevacante Catholic Church.
Even worse, yet, she could have taken him to a mosque!

And I would heartily second Asteriktos' post above.  Looks like the Orthodox kindergarten teaching about Christian love was somewhat lacking, too  ;D.  Well, it *was* kindergarten, and boys *do* like to beat each other up  ;D.  I'm sure they had no real clue at all what they were talking about and, hey, a fight's a fight, especially when you're all of 5.
 

Benjamin the Red

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I think you're doing fine, Celticfan. To me, you've demonstrated that you're convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy, the exclusion of all others. At the same time, you care for this girl and want to have a relationship. It sounds like you'd like for her to convert, but have serious doubts about that possibility. I think all of that is healthy.

Of course, the best circumstance is for Orthodox to marry Orthodox. This is most highly prized. Of course, in our times (and especially location, here in the west) that's quite difficult. We don't have a big pool of Orthodox people to pull from for romantic relationships. While it saddens me, we sometimes may have to marry Roman Catholics, or perhaps even a sacramental, confessional Protestant (such as a high-church Lutheran or Anglo-Catholic). Not ideal. Not ideal at all. C'est la vie. As long as both parties are respectful of each other's faith (and we're not out marrying JWs, Mormons, agnostic/atheists...or even Evangelicals or Presbyterians/Reformed Christians), it is possible.

Though, the concerns of raising a child in a split-faith household are very real. The Orthodox Church demands they be raised Orthodox. The Roman Catholics that they be raised Catholic. What do you do with that? Of course, the obvious answer you're going to hear from an Orthodox Christian is...raise the kid Orthodox! This is best, though might be hard. It's definitely something to talk about with your significant other when/if the relationship develops to such a level that marriage is a serious consideration. We should strive greatly to raise our children in the True Faith.

However, I think one thing should be said. Must be said. It's already been demonstrated here. DO NOT raise the kid in both faiths. It does lead to confusion (and yes, to heresy). The kid might end up in one of them, or might equate them together, or end up something else entirely (or nothing at all). Besides, raising a child to be both Orthodox and Roman Catholic is being unfaithful to both of those churches, which do not teach such equality. By encouraging such thought, both parents would be betraying their respective faiths.

Best wishes to you in this difficult circumstance. May God give you wisdom!
 

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J Michael said:
You wrote, "...Im slowly working on her conversion..."  Pretty easy to infer an expectation there.  And to "expect" her to learn about Orthodoxy....really??  Hope it's not one of those, "If you **really** love me..." things!
Man, you obviously dont know me. ;)

Yes, expect her to learn, as in experience it. Step 1) Bring her to Vespers, which she enjoyed, Step 2) Liturgy, Step 3) Church Fathers, etc etc. I'd still be with her if she became RC dude, I just want to introduce it to her, so atleat she can make an informed decision.

It isn't love if you say that. But if you love someone, you'd want to introduce them to The Truth.
 

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Asteriktos said:
Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Or they might grow up to learn to respect different religions and cultures, and realise that they must choose for themselves what they believe rather than having their parents force a certain set of beliefs on them.
LOL.
 

celticfan1888

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Benjamin the Red said:
I think you're doing fine, Celticfan. To me, you've demonstrated that you're convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy, the exclusion of all others. At the same time, you care for this girl and want to have a relationship. It sounds like you'd like for her to convert, but have serious doubts about that possibility. I think all of that is healthy.
Thank you, that is what I was trying to say.  :)

Benjamin the Red said:
Though, the concerns of raising a child in a split-faith household are very real. The Orthodox Church demands they be raised Orthodox. The Roman Catholics that they be raised Catholic. What do you do with that? Of course, the obvious answer you're going to hear from an Orthodox Christian is...raise the kid Orthodox! This is best, though might be hard. It's definitely something to talk about with your significant other when/if the relationship develops to such a level that marriage is a serious consideration. We should strive greatly to raise our children in the True Faith.
Believe it or not, I've already brought that up, and I told her I'd want my children to be baptized and raised in The Church.

Benjamin the Red said:
Best wishes to you in this difficult circumstance. May God give you wisdom!
Thank you friend!
 

Asteriktos

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Shanghaiski said:
Asteriktos said:
Michał Kalina said:
The least harmful thing that can happen to the children from the marriage Basil 320 mentioned is that they can start thinking that both Churches are 'the same' or 'equal' because mummy and pappy are members of both. The worse is that they can start to treat faith as something unimportant and windy because their parents do not want to decide what they believe.
Or they might grow up to learn to respect different religions and cultures, and realise that they must choose for themselves what they believe rather than having their parents force a certain set of beliefs on them.
LOL.
Such an idea must seem strange to many here...
 

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celticfan1888 said:
J Michael said:
You wrote, "...Im slowly working on her conversion..."  Pretty easy to infer an expectation there.  And to "expect" her to learn about Orthodoxy....really??  Hope it's not one of those, "If you **really** love me..." things!
Man, you obviously dont know me. ;)

Yes, expect her to learn, as in experience it. Step 1) Bring her to Vespers, which she enjoyed, Step 2) Liturgy, Step 3) Church Fathers, etc etc. I'd still be with her if she became RC dude, I just want to introduce it to her, so atleat she can make an informed decision.

It isn't love if you say that. But if you love someone, you'd want to introduce them to The Truth.
You're right, I don't know you.  Don't even know your name, and I'm pretty sure it's not celticfan1888!  Heck, I can't tell if that's a first name or a last name  ;D.  And please, do not call me "dude"--I'm probably old enough to be your grandfather  :(.

It'd be interesting, to say the least, if she "expected" of you what you "expect" of her!  Remember, as far as Catholics are concerned, the Catholic Church is The Church with all the fullness of The Truth!

I got the impression that she already is Roman Catholic, but you write above "if she became RC".  Could you clarify?
 

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Asteriktos said:
Such an idea must seem strange to many here...
I see your Dawkins this week. Hard to keep up with all of the paradigm swaps. I'll hope for a more pious Asteriktos next week.

Anyway my flippity-floppity-flip-flopper, you can't escape inculcating values in children. You're simply imposing the current cultural attitude towards religion upon them, namely that they are all are on equal ontological footing and that it is a matter of choice as to which one that a person picks. If parents disagree with this, then I suppose they are the brainwashers, even though other parents are doing the exact same thing in the other direction.
 

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J Michael said:
You're right, I don't know you.  Don't even know your name, and I'm pretty sure it's not celticfan1888!  Heck, I can't tell if that's a first name or a last name  ;D.  And please, do not call me "dude"--I'm probably old enough to be your grandfather  :(.

It'd be interesting, to say the least, if she "expected" of you what you "expect" of her!  Remember, as far as Catholics are concerned, the Catholic Church is The Church with all the fullness of The Truth!

I got the impression that she already is Roman Catholic, but you write above "if she became RC".  Could you clarify?
Sorry...mate?

She IS a Roman Catholic, I made a typo. But she isnt what I call, dogmatic.

BTW, name's Daniel Mikaelson, nice to meet you. ;P
 

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celticfan1888 said:
J Michael said:
You're right, I don't know you.  Don't even know your name, and I'm pretty sure it's not celticfan1888!  Heck, I can't tell if that's a first name or a last name  ;D.  And please, do not call me "dude"--I'm probably old enough to be your grandfather  :(.

It'd be interesting, to say the least, if she "expected" of you what you "expect" of her!  Remember, as far as Catholics are concerned, the Catholic Church is The Church with all the fullness of The Truth!

I got the impression that she already is Roman Catholic, but you write above "if she became RC".  Could you clarify?
Sorry...mate?

She IS a Roman Catholic, I made a typo. But she isnt what I call, dogmatic.

BTW, name's Daniel Mikaelson, nice to meet you. ;P
Alrighty, now we're getting somewhere!  ;)  Nice to meet you, too, Daniel.  You can call me J Michael.  Or Jeff.  ;)
 

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Asteriktos said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
completely missing the point... etc. etc... completely beating up a straw man rather than what I actually believe... etc. etc...
No, I got your point, and I was actually responding to it, flippity-floppity floppertons. You could go for an ad hominem exemption, but straw man is unfair.
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Asteriktos said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
completely missing the point... etc. etc... completely beating up a straw man rather than what I actually believe... etc. etc...
No, I got your point,
I don't think you have the slightest clue what my point was, nor what I think about the topic in general. Also, I wouldn't accuse you of an ad hominem, if only because it might give you the false impression that I care what you think of me as a person and that your jabs are getting to me :police:  But we can bicker in another thread if you want (e.g. random posts), I'll leave this one to get back to something that might actually be important to someone...
 

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Maria said:
The little kindergarten boys responded, "You cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox."
The little five-year son replied, "Oh, yes I can. In fact, I receive Holy Communion in both churches.
The little kindergarten boys shouted, "You heretic," and then proceeded to beat up the little boy.
It doesn't sound very charitable to beat up people because they have a different religion than you. Is that how it works with Orthodox boys?
 

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stanley123 said:
Maria said:
The little kindergarten boys responded, "You cannot be both Catholic and Orthodox."
The little five-year son replied, "Oh, yes I can. In fact, I receive Holy Communion in both churches.
The little kindergarten boys shouted, "You heretic," and then proceeded to beat up the little boy.
It doesn't sound very charitable to beat up people because they have a different religion than you. Is that how it works with Orthodox boys?
No, most boys in general just like to fight over whatever they can find to fight over.
 

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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

celticfan1888 said:
Michał Kalina said:
Why did you go?
Because she's my girlfriend and Im slowly working on her conversion...
If she sincerely wants to go, let her go.  If she is just going to please you,take advantage of her interest but also let her go but less frequently.  When you attend Mass, stand together so she doesn't feel outcast but do it reverently, and remember you came to pray.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
 
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