Being Confident of this...

FountainPen

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biro said:
If you'd rather not go to a parish, there are some Orthodox churches which put clips or even full services online. You can search for them on You Tube or Google. Very nice singing, for one...  ;) :angel: I can't push you to go if you don't want to, but the experience really is beautiful.
Biro thanks, i really appreciate you but no, i'm not really interested in beauty at this point.
 

Volnutt

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FountainPen said:
Volnutt said:
I'm spotty on his epistemology, but it seems to me that the point about mediated sensory knowledge with the analogy of the ideological spectacles functions as a neat refutation of the Puritan reflex action whether one conceives of it in terms of fruits of obedience or in some sort of "inner witness."
No "inner witness" necessary.

You commented that no one can be sure they "believe" enough or fully, to be able to be saved.

That's precisely why i began with Philippians 1:6 because it's on that basis that we believe. He who began the work....it's He who draws us to Himself and He WILL complete the work. You see how it's not based on our own merits? That's where the confidence should be and can be without any need for arrogance or pride as has been suggested.
And how do you know He really drew you? How do you know He even began the work in the first place? What is the basis, what is the evidence, for thinking you're a child of God?

The Puritans would say you look within yourself and ask yourself if you possess the fruit of the Spirit. But how many times have we seen someone who seems to be, or insists when questioned, that they are loving, humble, etc. only to turn out to be fraudulent? How do you know you aren't merely lying to yourself?
 

orthonorm

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FountainPen said:
if i did, the one near me isn't in English it's a Greek onlyist church not a native seeker-friendly one "...and for that reason, i'm out." #laughs
I don't blame you.
 

NicholasMyra

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FountainPen said:
Philippians 1:6
"..being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

I don't see this confidence in Orthodoxy.
"The Prophet (pbuh) said: Three things are the roots of faith: To refrain from [killing] a person who utters, 'There is no god but Allah' and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action..."

-Abu Dawud 14:2526 Hadith
 

FountainPen

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Volnutt said:
FountainPen said:
Volnutt said:
I'm spotty on his epistemology, but it seems to me that the point about mediated sensory knowledge with the analogy of the ideological spectacles functions as a neat refutation of the Puritan reflex action whether one conceives of it in terms of fruits of obedience or in some sort of "inner witness."
No "inner witness" necessary.

You commented that no one can be sure they "believe" enough or fully, to be able to be saved.

That's precisely why i began with Philippians 1:6 because it's on that basis that we believe. He who began the work....it's He who draws us to Himself and He WILL complete the work. You see how it's not based on our own merits? That's where the confidence should be and can be without any need for arrogance or pride as has been suggested.
And how do you know He really drew you?

How do you know He even began the work in the first place? What is the basis, what is the evidence, for thinking you're a child of God?

The Puritans would say you look within yourself and ask yourself if you possess the fruit of the Spirit. But how many times have we seen someone who seems to be, or insists when questioned, that they are loving, humble, etc. only to turn out to be fraudulent? How do you know you aren't merely lying to yourself?
I know He really drew me because any move towards God is good and it's a gift of His grace and every good gift comes from God (James 1:17)

I asked Him to take the small faith i had and save me by His grace. The bible says that if i ask sincerely for God, He will be found by me, that He will not give me a snake when i ask for bread and that He will give me what i ask for when i ask according to His will. Salvation is according to His will as He want's all men to be saved.

I know i'm not merely lying to myself because if my focus was on myself and how well i was doing then i'm not surprised that people find it hard to tell who is and who isn't saved by looking at people or indeed if we look at ourselves (and ultimately feel bad about our progress as we all might do). I have to trust what Christ has said in His word for my answer not by looking at myself for the answer to that question. The account of the wheat and the tares reminds us not to try and figure out who is and who isn't because we will invariably get it all wrong.

Christ has said that he will complete the work He has started.

Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
 

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FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
But it will profit you nothing if you fail every course.

For the Lord said: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
 

NicholasMyra

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FountainPen said:
I see guilt, unworthiness and a burden that crushes people not a liberating freedom which causes people to rejoice in the work of the cross.
When the Chrism was washed off of my body after my baptism and Chrismation, the priest said:

"Thou art justified. Thou art illumined. Thou art sanctified. Thou art washed: in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
 

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NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
But it will profit you nothing if you fail every course.

For the Lord said: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
If i good friend tells you they will do something, you can pretty much trust they will do it. That's what the analogy was about.

Of course much will be required. God entrusts all kinds of gifts and callings in varying degrees which is why you have those weak in the faith, those strong, those who are babes and those who are wise and experienced in the faith.
 

Volnutt

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FountainPen said:
I know He really drew me because any move towards God is good and it's a gift of His grace and every good gift comes from God (James 1:17)

I know i'm not merely lying to myself because if my focus was on myself and how well i was doing then i'm not surprised that people find it hard to tell who is and who isn't saved by looking at people or indeed if we look at ourselves (and ultimately feel bad about our progress as we all might do). I have to trust what Christ has said in His word for my answer not by looking at myself for the answer to that question. The account of the wheat and the tares reminds us not to try and figure out who is and who isn't because we will invariably get it all wrong.

Christ has said that he will complete the work He has started.
You didn't answer my question. All you have is the naked assumption that you're already in. You don't know if Jesus even moved you in the first place. If you want to start claiming "if you think you're in, you're in," then let me introduce you to my good buddy, Charles Taze Russell. He thought he was in too.

FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
That's absolutely right. We can be mostly confident. That "mostly" is important.

Orthodoxy, far from preaching despair, acknowledges that the reality of human knowledge being what it is that mostly really is a mostly and not a "2+2=4" like Luther and Calvin wanted.

If mostly is good enough for you as a Protestant, as it should be for anyone, then you have no case against the Orthodox.
 

NicholasMyra

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FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
But it will profit you nothing if you fail every course.

For the Lord said: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
If i good friend tells you they will do something, you can pretty much trust they will do it. That's what the analogy was about.

Of course much will be required. God entrusts all kinds of gifts and callings in varying degrees which is why you have those weak in the faith, those strong, those who are babes and those who are wise and experienced in the faith.
Does God ultimately have mercy on absolutely everyone?
 

Volnutt

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orthonorm said:
Volnutt said:
orthonorm said:
Volnutt said:
I'm spotty on his epistemology, but it seems to me that the point about mediated sensory knowledge with the analogy of the ideological spectacles functions as a neat refutation of the Puritan reflex action whether one conceives of it in terms of fruits of obedience or in some sort of "inner witness."
So you haven't read his Critiques per se?
Nope, just gleaning from other sources, my ethics survey course included.  :-[

orthonorm said:
Here is something that I find interesting.

Everyone, like everyone, knows about Kant's Categorical Imperative.

The thing is, is why does such a great thinker end up with what seems like such a silly and absurd notion of ethical behavior?

And forget the arguments given in the Groundwork.

I often suspect that most students even in analytical programs forgo reading all the Critiques, frankly the "third" being the crown of them all.

People go on about the deontological nature of the Imperative, but I think fail to grasp the powerful and striking context surrounding the reasons for Kant's ethical formulation, yes I mean that emphasis.

And by people, I mean moderately educated folks who probably got rushed through a survey philosophy series.
Well, I've only looked at the Groundwork. :laugh: From what I picked up, he considers human autonomy and moral equality to be true by definition because if everyone took advantage of everyone else then they would be using their own autonomy to ensure nobody has anymore autonomy (for Kant a logical contradiction, autonomy can't cancel itself out).

Therefore one cannot give himself a privilege (for example, life) which he would deny to anybody else, hence the need to "will it be a universal law." To murder is to say that your victim's life is dependent on your own desires, he has no autonomy. To commit suicide is to use your autonomy to make sure you never make another choice again.

I hope to read the Critiques one of this days.
This is why the Groundwork IMHO should be tossed in the trash, it decontexualizes Kant's radical turn in Western Thought. People miss the tree for the trees.

So, if you had to describe the method at work here, how would you describe it? See above posts for clues.

And does the method have some relationship to the nature of what is being analyzed thought?
I suppose the method is something along the lines of interrogating the logical implications of statements such as "I have free will" and and see under what circumstances these possible implications can possibly be made to contradict themselves. Socratic monologue, if you will.

The nature of morality is the description and prescription of human actions, so having a logically consistent set of prescriptions for behavior is very important.

Is that what you're driving toward?
 

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NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
But it will profit you nothing if you fail every course.

For the Lord said: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
If i good friend tells you they will do something, you can pretty much trust they will do it. That's what the analogy was about.

Of course much will be required. God entrusts all kinds of gifts and callings in varying degrees which is why you have those weak in the faith, those strong, those who are babes and those who are wise and experienced in the faith.
Does God ultimately have mercy on absolutely everyone?
Romans 9:15
"For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

I can't believe you had to ask that.
 

FountainPen

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Volnutt said:
FountainPen said:
I know He really drew me because any move towards God is good and it's a gift of His grace and every good gift comes from God (James 1:17)

I know i'm not merely lying to myself because if my focus was on myself and how well i was doing then i'm not surprised that people find it hard to tell who is and who isn't saved by looking at people or indeed if we look at ourselves (and ultimately feel bad about our progress as we all might do). I have to trust what Christ has said in His word for my answer not by looking at myself for the answer to that question. The account of the wheat and the tares reminds us not to try and figure out who is and who isn't because we will invariably get it all wrong.

Christ has said that he will complete the work He has started.
You didn't answer my question. All you have is the naked assumption that you're already in. You don't know if Jesus even moved you in the first place. If you want to start claiming "if you think you're in, you're in," then let me introduce you to my good buddy, Charles Taze Russell. He thought he was in too.

FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
That's absolutely right. We can be mostly confident. That "mostly" is important.

Orthodoxy, far from preaching despair, acknowledges that the reality of human knowledge being what it is that mostly really is a mostly and not a "2+2=4" like Luther and Calvin wanted.

If mostly is good enough for you as a Protestant, as it should be for anyone, then you have no case against the Orthodox.
I absolutely did answer your question. I can't help it if you didn't appreciate the answer.
 

NicholasMyra

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FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
But it will profit you nothing if you fail every course.

For the Lord said: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
If i good friend tells you they will do something, you can pretty much trust they will do it. That's what the analogy was about.

Of course much will be required. God entrusts all kinds of gifts and callings in varying degrees which is why you have those weak in the faith, those strong, those who are babes and those who are wise and experienced in the faith.
Does God ultimately have mercy on absolutely everyone?
Romans 9:15
"For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

I can't believe you had to ask that.
I am aware of the verse. I am asking you, do you believe that God has mercy on absolutely everyone?
 

FountainPen

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NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
But it will profit you nothing if you fail every course.

For the Lord said: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
If i good friend tells you they will do something, you can pretty much trust they will do it. That's what the analogy was about.

Of course much will be required. God entrusts all kinds of gifts and callings in varying degrees which is why you have those weak in the faith, those strong, those who are babes and those who are wise and experienced in the faith.
Does God ultimately have mercy on absolutely everyone?
Romans 9:15
"For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

I can't believe you had to ask that.
I am aware of the verse. I am asking you, do you believe that God has mercy on absolutely everyone?
I believe... that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
 

Volnutt

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FountainPen said:
I absolutely did answer your question.
I beg to differ. You're like a Christian quoting Bible verses at an atheist. You can't even say for certain you believe in God and you want to jump right to, "I am saved."

We don't have infallible access to our own minds.
 

Volnutt

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FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
NicholasMyra said:
FountainPen said:
Let me ask you something. If a good trusted friend who came int o some money told you they had put aside a certain amount to pay for your schooling for the next three or four years however long you needed it. Would you be confident that if they said they were going to pay....they would? And yes, before you try and think of loopholes, they have the funds protected. (#laughs) Even if you can say that you would be mostly confident, how much moreso can we be confident in almighty God and our heavenly Father when He says He will complete a work in us?
But it will profit you nothing if you fail every course.

For the Lord said: "From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more."
If i good friend tells you they will do something, you can pretty much trust they will do it. That's what the analogy was about.

Of course much will be required. God entrusts all kinds of gifts and callings in varying degrees which is why you have those weak in the faith, those strong, those who are babes and those who are wise and experienced in the faith.
Does God ultimately have mercy on absolutely everyone?
Romans 9:15
"For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

I can't believe you had to ask that.
I am aware of the verse. I am asking you, do you believe that God has mercy on absolutely everyone?
I believe... that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
What if, "on whom He will have mercy"= everyone?
 

orthonorm

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Volnutt said:
FountainPen said:
I absolutely did answer your question.
I beg to differ. You're like a Christian quoting Bible verses at an atheist. You can't even say for certain you believe in God and you want to jump right to, "I am saved."

We don't have infallible access to our own minds.
If you see this as a strength rather than a weakness, then you are not far from the Kingdom of Wisdom.
 

Volnutt

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orthonorm said:
Volnutt said:
FountainPen said:
I absolutely did answer your question.
I beg to differ. You're like a Christian quoting Bible verses at an atheist. You can't even say for certain you believe in God and you want to jump right to, "I am saved."

We don't have infallible access to our own minds.
If you see this as a strength rather than a weakness, then you are not far from the Kingdom of Wisdom.
Tis a bitter realization though.
 
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