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Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy (Russian & Lipovan Orthodox Old-Rite)

stashko

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Isn't it better to cross oneself, In the Name Co-substantial and un-divided Trinity are Great Lord and God...
Three Fingers Instead Of two...... ???
 

Lenexa

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stashko said:
Isn't it better to cross oneself, In the Name Co-substantial and un-divided Trinity are Great Lord and God...
Three Fingers Instead Of two...... ???
To be honest I do prefer the two fingers for the dual natures of Christ tracing the Cross because it is Christ not the whole Trinity which was crucified. However the pinky, ring, and thumb equally are touched affirming the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the Trinity who the Sacrifice on the Cross was offered up to. The practice of using the Trinitarian formula with the Sign of the Cross, that is three fingers saying In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit came to Orthodoxy from Latin influence. It is true that we are baptized using the Trinitarian Formula but the practice of using it with the Sign of the Cross was not common to Orthodoxy until the Modern era from what I've read and understand. Below is a text often cited to show that the modern practice of the Sign of the Cross as practiced in Orthodoxy actually comes from the Latins. Note below that this is a Medieval Pope who is telling them to make the Sign of the Cross with Three Finger from RIGHT TO LEFT which is unlike the modern Latin practice of Left to Right.

Pope Innocent III (1198–1216) gave the following instruction:
The sign of the cross is made with three fingers, because the signing is done together with the invocation of the Trinity. ... This is how it is done: from above to below, and from the right to the left, because Christ descended from the heavens to the earth, and from the Jews (right) He passed to the Gentiles (left). Others, however, make the sign of the cross from the left to the right, because from misery (left) we must cross over to glory (right), just as Christ crossed over from death to life, and from Hades to Paradise. [Some priests] do it this way so that they and the people will be signing themselves in the same way. You can easily verify this — picture the priest facing the people for the blessing — when we make the sign of the cross over the people, it is from left to right...


Personally I prefer to say the Jesus Prayer while making the Sign of the Cross with Two fingers. Forehead- Gospodi, Belly - Isusa Hriste, Right Shoulder- Sine Bozhe, Left- Pomilui Nash. But I have no problem with saying "In Nomine Patri, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti." What I have to emphasize again and again is that it was NOT the Old Believers who made the Sign of the Cross a matter of Life and Death it was the REFORMERS WHO ANATHEMATIZED AND PERSECUTED PEOPLE FOR USING TWO FINGERS in the Sign of the Cross! What was the big deal? In the West some use five fingers for the five wounds of Christ, some use the index and middle together straight leaving the thumb out and the ring and pinky bent to the palm and I don't know where that came from, some use three fingers, some just leave their hand open with fingers not together and will just touch lightly using their middle finger. Yes Roman Catholicism is heresy but I'm just pointing out that people can hold the same faith and have varying individual practices. It really is still shocking to me all the fighting over making the sign of the Cross with two fingers! They even denied the Sainthood of Anna of Kashin over this issue when she had already been declared a Saint after they uncovered her relics and found her right hand in the form of using the two fingered sign which the Old Believers took as a great sign to validate their cause.
Lord Have Mercy if I go too far but often it is those who seek reform who are overly strict, brute and harsh rather than those who are traditional resist any un-necessary reform that would introduce innovation to the detriment of the faith.
I hope that this helped. I know it wasn't a quick straight answer.
Please pray for me.
When you pray for me you can make the Sign of the Cross with two or three fingers as long as you are giving Right-Glory! as long as you are Orthodox!
 

Antonis

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Thank you very much for this information, I appreciate it immensely.
 

Marc1152

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Antonis said:
I want to revive this, I've also recently become interested in the Old-Rite, and their points seem very convincing, I wonder what the typical Orthodox response to them is, I haven't been able to find anything.
Rocor has an Old-Rite Parish in Erie PA. I know people who travel there frequently and attend services.

http://www.churchofthenativity.net/
 

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Recently there was a very good interview of Fr. Pimen Simon, the priest of the Old Believer parish in ROCOR, posted on the site of ROCOR Studies:

http://rocorstudies.org/index.php?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage=rocor_articles

I highly recommend this interview as it describes in detail the journey of this community of priestless Pomortsy Old Believers into ROCOR.  Of particular interest to me was his understanding that the Old Believer schism is very much of the same substance as the Old Calendarist schisms and the schism of those who left ROCOR recently over the reunion with the MP.  It was also meaningful to learn about his discovery of the Apostolic Fathers which convinced him that there can be no Church without a bishop.  A third comment he makes in the interview that I found significant was that when he took over the community in Erie while they were still Pomortsy and he began to read the service books, he came to see how much of the content of the services they were missing entirely just by not having a priest, and that these "omissions" were much more significant than any of the ommissions or abbreviations which resulted from the Nikonian reforms.

On the other hand, while I personally like and have some respect for Vladimir Moss for his efforts, there are some serious problems with some of his research as well as his conclusions, but that is another story altogether.   

 

xenos

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I don't mean to affend anybody and I don't own this forum but I think that you should either rename the topic to include all old rite christians, including yedinovertsy, or make a separate topic for them, because they are not old believers (hence their name, which means a cobeliever... a cobeliever to the state church) and certainly do not belong to the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy.
 

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Recent visit of Met. Cornelius to Tiraspol, Rep. of Moldova:

 

Alveus Lacuna

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jah777 said:
Recently there was a very good interview of Fr. Pimen Simon, the priest of the Old Believer parish in ROCOR, posted on the site of ROCOR Studies:

http://rocorstudies.org/index.php?sid=130&aid=11362&idpage=rocor_articles

I highly recommend this interview as it describes in detail the journey of this community of priestless Pomortsy Old Believers into ROCOR.  Of particular interest to me was his understanding that the Old Believer schism is very much of the same substance as the Old Calendarist schisms and the schism of those who left ROCOR recently over the reunion with the MP.  It was also meaningful to learn about his discovery of the Apostolic Fathers which convinced him that there can be no Church without a bishop.  A third comment he makes in the interview that I found significant was that when he took over the community in Erie while they were still Pomortsy and he began to read the service books, he came to see how much of the content of the services they were missing entirely just by not having a priest, and that these "omissions" were much more significant than any of the ommissions or abbreviations which resulted from the Nikonian reforms.

On the other hand, while I personally like and have some respect for Vladimir Moss for his efforts, there are some serious problems with some of his research as well as his conclusions, but that is another story altogether.
Thanks for posting this. It was great getting more insight into the Erie, PA parish and its history. I didn't realize they came fro ma priestless group.

Last year I met a student at the university I was attending that was baptized as an Old Believer in Russia as an infant by one of the sects with priests. He wasn't in any way practicing, but it was interesting asking him a few questions. He was an absolutely brilliant scholar, especially for his age.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Yes, the Old Believers are schismatic sectarians, aside from the few groups in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.

This is not an insult, it is a reality. The historical circumstances which created them were totally unfair and unjust, but their lack of unity even amongst themselves shows their sectarian nature.
 

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xenos said:
I don't mean to affend anybody and I don't own this forum but I think that you should either rename the topic to include all old rite christians, including yedinovertsy, or make a separate topic for them, because they are not old believers (hence their name, which means a cobeliever... a cobeliever to the state church) and certainly do not belong to the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy.
In the beginning I had hoped that the Belokrinitskaya hierarchy would be the focus of the topic. That is why I kept posting the information I did. Unfortunately most Orthodox laity outside of the former Russian Empire and Romania have not even heard of Old Believers and less than 0.1% have heard of the Belokrinitsky. Due to the lack of knowledge many people made comments and associations that have to do with all Old Believers, with Edinoverie, with ROCOR, with whether or not the Old Rite is correct, etc.
What do you think about Vladyka Andrei (Ukhtomsky) of Ufa? He became a member of the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while remaining a bishop of many "Nikonian" Orthodox Christians with the consent of Vladyka Meletii (Kartushin), the Archbishop of Moscow, They even consecrated a bishop, Vladyka Vasil (Guslinsky) together.
Have you any information about why the conflict has erupted between Metropolitan Kornily and Елисеем Елисеевым?
xenos said:
one of the sects with priests?
Perhaps he did not know if it was by a priest under the Novozybkov Hierarchy AKA "Old Orthodox MP"?
Alveus Lacuna said:
Yes, the Old Believers are schismatic sectarians, aside from the few groups in communion with the rest of the Orthodox world.
This is not an insult, it is a reality. The historical circumstances which created them were totally unfair and unjust, but their lack of unity even amongst themselves shows their sectarian nature.
I don't think this is really fair to state that lack of unity "even amongst themselves" is evidence of sectarian nature. This is the same argument Atheists, Agnostics, and others libel Christianity with when they attack us lumping RCs, Protestants, Non-Chalcedonians, Nestorians, and others into the same boat with us as Christians.
 

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It is an odd thing to read on a forum that has a separate section for non-chalcedonians.

As for "lack of unity", I can say the same thing about the neo-orthodox: there are official patriarchates, unrecognized autocephalus churches (macedonians, ukranians), catacombists and post-rocor factions (several of them), old calendarists (several synods). Where is your unity? You will say that catacombists and old calendarists are schismatics but we can say the same thing about the priestless old believers. Moreover, we do not have the same faith and the fact that both of us call each other "old believers" means as much as the fact that both Jehovah's Witnesses and the orthodox claim to be christian. Among the Old Believers with priests there are only two factions... that have a bigger chance of getting back to gether than, let's say, your Church and the Old Calendarists. Christians in general were one day concidered a jewish sect... matter of fact, it had all the qualities of a sect. When Arians or Iconoclasts prevailed, we were constantly called a schismatic sect. Were we? It is subjective... but so in order to respect each other, let's not claim who is a sect and who isn't.

For this reason, then, we require greater attention and consideration in order to investigate how precisely we ought to live, and what is the true piety. For it is plain that, from the very reason that truth is difficult and arduous of attainment, questions arise from which spring the heresies, savouring of self-love and vanity, of those who have not learned or apprehended truly, but only caught up a mere conceit of knowledge. With the greater care, therefore, are we to examine the real truth, which alone has for its object the true God. And the toil is followed by sweet discovery and reminiscence.

On account of the heresies, therefore, the toil of discovery must be undertaken; but we must not at all abandon [the truth]. For, on fruit being set before us, some real and ripe, and some made of wax, as like the real as possible, we are not to abstain from both on account of the resemblance. But by the exercise of the apprehension of contemplation, and by reasoning of the most decisive character, we must distinguish the true from the seeming.
Blessed Clement of Alexandria
 

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What do you think about Vladyka Andrei (Ukhtomsky) of Ufa? He became a member of the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy while remaining a bishop of many "Nikonian" Orthodox Christians with the consent of Vladyka Meletii (Kartushin), the Archbishop of Moscow, They even consecrated a bishop, Vladyka Vasil (Guslinsky) together.
Vladyka Andrei was not completely truthful neither with us, nor with the Novozybkovsky christians, who he also attempted to join. While we thought that he joined us, he saw it as the fact that we joined him. Later this was realized... and that's why he ended up staying with the catacombists, forming the andrewite branch (who were basically yedinovertsy). That branch still exists in the eastern Russia (though dying out). I have not studied the issue enough to explain everything in detail but I can read up on it and get back at you. To be honest I don't have much interest in catacombists.

Have you any information about why the conflict has erupted between Metropolitan Kornily and Елисеем Елисеевым?
I do but don't want to go into detail here, because the issue is usually blown out of proportion on the internet. All I'll say is that the conflict will be resolved at the quickly approaching Romanian Council.
 

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xenos said:
As for "lack of unity", I can say the same thing about the neo-orthodox: there are official patriarchates, unrecognized autocephalus churches (macedonians, ukranians), catacombists and post-rocor factions (several of them), old calendarists (several synods). Where is your unity? You will say that catacombists and old calendarists are schismatics but we can say the same thing about the priestless old believers. Moreover, we do not have the same faith and the fact that both of us call each other "old believers" means as much as the fact that both Jehovah's Witnesses and the orthodox claim to be christian. Among the Old Believers with priests there are only two factions... that have a bigger chance of getting back to gether than, let's say, your Church and the Old Calendarists. Christians in general were one day concidered a jewish sect... matter of fact, it had all the qualities of a sect. When Arians or Iconoclasts prevailed, we were constantly called a schismatic sect. Were we? It is subjective... but so in order to respect each other, let's not claim who is a sect and who isn't.
I would retract the post if I could. It's hard to balance truth with grace, and I aim at peace with all men. Forgive me for any offense.
 

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stashko said:
What kind clerical Garb is he wearing looks kind of latin... ??? with the little cape...
LOL
 

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It is called a half-mantle. It is worn when not in Church. When in Church (at least for feast days) monks wear a full mantle:


Right to left: monk in regular garments, garments for outside, monk in festive garments, schema-monk in regular garments, festive garments.

Russian mantles are shorter than the ones Greeks and others wore. The picture above depicts the Russian tradition. For a long time even the monks of the Synodal Church wore it (see, for instance, portraits of Seraphim of Sarov).
 

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xenos said:
It is called a half-mantle. It is worn when not in Church. When in Church (at least for feast days) monks wear a full mantle:


Right to left: monk in regular garments, garments for outside, monk in festive garments, schema-monk in regular garments, festive garments.

Russian mantles are shorter than the ones Greeks and others wore. The picture above depicts the Russian tradition. For a long time even the monks of the Synodal Church wore it (see, for instance, portraits of Seraphim of Sarov).

I've Never seen Serbian Monks or Priests or Bishops wear something like that,,Has to be Latin Influence In the Russian Church I read the latins influenced Russian Orthodoxy from the 17 century onward...Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...
 

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Many ancient traditions ceased to exist but it has nothing to do with the Latins. Perhaps even the Latins preserved an old tradition. They did not just everything completely after the Great Schism. For instance, they are the only ones to keep the old tonsure-cuts that both eastern and western monks and clergy had (see St. Bede's Ecclesiastical History). Would be it fair to suggest latin influence when looking at the icons of St. Sabbas of Serbia or St. Gregory Palamas?
In any case, it'd only be reasoable to talk about the latin influence if there were no images of half-mantles prior to the 17th century, which there are. Here's one, for instance:



The fact that your bishops or monks do not wear this, is not really an evidence. But I do think that "Russia better start delatinizing its self". Perhaps not only Russia...
 

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Some srbs did seek out Latin traditions some of our medieval Churches Have what they tries to pass off as gargoyles on them disgusting and ugly they are..



xenos said:
Many ancient traditions ceased to exist but it has nothing to do with the Latins. Perhaps even the Latins preserved an old tradition. They did not just everything completely after the Great Schism. For instance, they are the only ones to keep the old tonsure-cuts that both eastern and western monks and clergy had (see St. Bede's Ecclesiastical History). Would be it fair to suggest latin influence when looking at the icons of St. Sabbas of Serbia or St. Gregory Palamas?
In any case, it'd only be reasoable to talk about the latin influence if there were no images of half-mantles prior to the 17th century, which there are. Here's one, for instance:



The fact that your bishops or monks do not wear this, is not really an evidence. But I do think that "Russia better start delatinizing its self". Perhaps not only Russia...
 

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So St. Sabbas and St. Gregory were catholics then? Maybe so was St. John Cassian and the Egyptian monks he writes about:

6. Of their capes (The mafors (μαφώριον or μαφόριον) is the monkish scapular, or working-dress. Cf. the Rule of S. Benedict, c. 55: “Scapulare propter opera.” In form it was a large, coarse cape, or hood).

Next they cover their necks and shoulders with a narrow cape, aiming at modesty of dress as well as cheapness and economy; and this is called in our language as well as theirs mafors; and so they avoid both the expense and the display of cloaks and great coats.
 

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xenos said:
So St. Sabbas and St. Gregory were catholics then? Maybe so was St. John Cassian and the Egyptian monks he writes about:

6. Of their capes (The mafors (μαφώριον or μαφόριον) is the monkish scapular, or working-dress. Cf. the Rule of S. Benedict, c. 55: “Scapulare propter opera.” In form it was a large, coarse cape, or hood).

Next they cover their necks and shoulders with a narrow cape, aiming at modesty of dress as well as cheapness and economy; and this is called in our language as well as theirs mafors; and so they avoid both the expense and the display of cloaks and great coats.
Orthodox Catholic but some Latin Influence For sure.... ;D
 

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St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...
 

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xenos said:
St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...
Though at that time we were united there was probably still a difference between us eastern and western  in what the clergy wore...  ;D
 

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Well, if you've decided everything already then I guess there's no point in further discussion of this topic.

Here's a monk (archdeacon Hesychius) in festive garments:

 

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xenos said:
Well, if you've decided everything already then I guess there's no point in further discussion of this topic.

Here's a monk (archdeacon Hesychius) in festive garments:

This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above... ::)
 

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Hopeful Faithful said:
stashko said:
This looks more Orthodox than the Latin getup the Other person is wearing....above...
Only because of the Birch.
Serbija ,Bulgarija, Makadonija, the balkans are Orthodox  For One thousand Two Hundred Years...And i never seen that Getup ever...What Does Russija Okrajina Have Only One Thousand yrs Of Holy Orthodoxy....Humm Also Where older than the Old believers are...
 

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stashko said:
Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...
I second.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
stashko said:
Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...
I second.
Um, they could have done that when they rebuilt the thing recently. Obviously they didn't want to.
 

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Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Michał Kalina said:
stashko said:
Russia better start delatinizing it 's self...Starting with Christ the Saviour Cathedral ,By replacing all the awfull western looking  Pictures....With True Orthodox Ikons...
The Church in the basement has perfect frescoes. I have no idea why the upper one is so ugly.

I second.
Um, they could have done that when they rebuilt the thing recently. Obviously they didn't want to.
The Church in the basements has perfect frescoes. I have no idea why the upper one is so ugly.
 

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Andrew21091 said:
Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.
How can that be possable when they got Christianity from costantinople and no Greek Clergy wore anything that resembled that....They must of been influenced by latins some how or by living close to them... ??? ???
 

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stashko said:
xenos said:
St. John lived in the 5th century... moreover everything he established in the West was borrowed from the Egyptian monks. So in the end, it's not a latin influence but an eastern influence on the Latins. Also St. Bede, who wrote about the tonsures of various monks, lived in the 8/9th centuries. I hope you remember that we were one Church once...
Though at that time we were united there was probably still a difference between us eastern and western  in what the clergy wore...  ;D
Xenos has more than adequately addressed this topic and done the research for you. He has clearly demonstrated that the origin of the half-mantle is not at Latin. Just because Russian bishops of official Church stopped wearing the half-mantle while Latin bishops continue to wear it, although this is not the norm since Vatican II, does not in anyway make it Latin. Why do Orthodox do this to themselves? Why do we attribute things to the Latins and not do the research?
What you wrote above is really upsetting.
You are making an assumption which is false and not doing the research to even see if you are right! No, the Church for the first several hundred years was not marked by some East vs West split. There were conflicts and differences that emerged during the first millenia but many of these were within Western Europe due to the Germanic peoples. Pope St.Martin the Confessor and St.Maximos are a great example of how East and West were not split during the first millenia of the Church. The differences in Liturgical vestments is something that has evolved over time but even the differences in the Bishops Mitre and the wearing of mantles and half mantles is not an East vs. West split! The Armenian and Coptic Bishops have always worn Mitres that are near identical to the Latin Mitre and the wearing of the Mantle has been adequately shown to originate from early-Christian Monasticism in the Middle East.
Please don't take the Modern state of things and then impose it on history.
Please don't make fun of the clothing worn by St.Joseph of the Far East just because he was an Old Believer bishop that you don't agree with!
The man was so highly regarded that even the local MP bishop went to his funeral and made a prostration.

stashko said:
Andrew21091 said:
Stashko, that is how Russian priests and monks dressed before the reforms on Nikon. This was before any Western influences were brought into Russia.
How can that be possable when they got Christianity from costantinople and no Greek Clergy wore anything that resembled that....They must of been influenced by latins some how or by living close to them... ??? ???
Xenos has already explained the Eastern origin of the half-mantle. Russian Christianity was strongly influenced by Monasticism and faithfully maintained absolute fidelity to the Jerusalem Typikon. The Old Believers still maintain absolute fidelity to the Jerusalem Typicon.
Please don't judge whose Orthodox based on appearances alone.
There have been alot of heretics who looked very Orthodox.

Please just do some reading and learn the history of the Church. Take the time to learn why the Old Believers left the MP so long ago and maybe you will start to see things in a new light?



Unwarranted pot shot at recent hierarch of the Church removed from post by moderator. You could have made your point perfectly clear without naming any examples.  -PtA
 

Punch

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Lenexa,

I just started reading this thread and find it fascinating.  For years the Old Believer Prayer Book was what I used for my services, and to this day I still make the sign of the cross with two fingers (to the amusement of my priest, but he has not told me to stop).  Like you, I settled in the Serb Church under +Longin, and I have a Priest that is very traditional, as well as sympathetic to the Old Believers.  I am about three hours North of you in Omaha.  I think people from my Church were down at yours for some festival a couple of months ago.
 

stashko

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The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....
 

Andrew21091

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stashko said:
The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else ,I guess even a distortion if one practices for while. it becomes tradtion...
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...We in the Balkans don't have anything like the old believers/old rite..Unless they Fled there to excape Persecution....
You think some of the practices in the Church of Constantinople and Serbia have always been around? Remember, some of the clothing that many priests wear were adopted from the Turks such as the Rassa. The Old Rite faith is what the great Saints of the Russian Church before Nikon would have been familiar with such as St. Sergius of Radonezh, Sts. Sergius and Herman of Valaam (founders of Valaam Monastery), St. Nilus of Sora, St. Cyril of Belozersk, St. Sabbatius of Solovki, St. Alexander Nevsky, ect. would have all practiced in the same way that Old Ritualists do today. So, are you saying that they weren't Orthodox or traditional enough since they did the Sign of the Cross with two fingers and practiced all the other aspects that you find among Old Ritualists? The reforms were not necessary and in fact, Constantinople never suggested that the Russians had to reform their practices.

The historical evidence has already been provided but you choose to ignore it apparently.
 

Michał

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stashko said:
The old rite or old believers, Nothing Traditional about them ,Just A distortion of  the rite of constantinople they recieved and nothing else. . .
::)

stashko said:
The reforms were necessary to comform to Constantinople  rite...
That is, to a rite which was newer and contained innovations. Old Believers of the 17th century followed the same reasoning as you follow today. Let me quote your posts from another thread:
stashko said:
Changes are a No No.... ;D
stashko said:
I Hate Changes......
Btw, stashko, if I may ask, is there any hidden meaning behind your peculiar use of uppercase and lowercase letters?
 
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