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Benedict XVI opens to the Anglo-Catholics

AlexanderOfBergamo

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Today the Pope has made a long-awaited move towards the Anglo-Catholics who were asking for reunion with the See of Rome. He has instituted a "Personal Ordinariate" for those Anglo-Catholics who will accept to enter in communion with the Roman Pontiff. The conditions will allow them to preserve their liturgy and their canonical right to order deacons and presbyters from the uxoriate state. The result has been of course a certain anger from the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has moved recently towards modernist positions such as female episcopacy.
For a larger view on the subject:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100014174/new-era-begins-as-benedict-throws-open-gates-of-rome-to-disaffected-anglicans/
What do you think of this event? Personally, even if I'm no appreciator of the RCC, I have to rejoice of 2 things:
1) Finally the Anglo-Catholics can get rid of the liberal components they were in communion with
2) The Anglo-Catholics might become an example for the other RCs of a different approach of dogmatics and liturgics which is, at some extent, more similar to the Orthodox.

Of course, I would have rejoiced better of a return of Anglicanism to Orthodoxy, but who knows?
BTW, what do you think of this event? Is it positive or negative? Will the Anglo-Catholics accept Benedict's proposal?

In Christ,   Alex
 

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The article has my head spinning, but hey as long as these Anglicans will submit to the entirety of the Catholic faith (including Papal infallibility and Universal Jurisdiction) otherwise we will have another "u-word" situation.
 

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My reponse?

Te Deum Laudamus!

This was long in waiting, and I know several Anglican friends who are now rejoicing.

This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.


Long live Pope Benedict XVI, the Pope of Unity, now gloriously reigning.

In commemoration, an Anglican Te Deum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si1CfnoRyNw&feature=related
 

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Note the backdoor acceptance of the Council of Trullo (?) on married priests and unmarried bishops, which is referred to in the supporting documents as part of "Catholic and Orthodox" tradition. Priests/bishops crossing over from Anglicanism are referred to  "Ordinaries" (including married seminarians.) There will be continued use of an Anglican rite one CDF spokesman has described as "more Tridentine" than what Rome has today. I wonder how much of this will impact the "reform" or new translation of the Ordinary Rite in English, which will be rolled out next year. Others have noted that the SSPX is likely to be next. The long-term legacy of Pope Benedict will likely be in the area of authentic liturgical reform. I don't want to be too optimistic for Cyprus, but hope for something there as well. Lliberal Catholics, if there is such an expression, would probably feel threatened by a full communion with SSPX, but too bad for them.

I'm monitoring a few Catholic blogs - What does the prayer mean, and Rorate Coeli - and will see if I can look into some Anglican blogs well for reaction.

 

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I most certainly believe that His Holiness did this because he wants to bring these Christians back into the fold but I also wonder if one smalll motivation for this act was bringing more traditional Liturgical communities into the Church to aide in the reform of the mass.
 

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lubeltri said:
My reponse?

Te Deum Laudamus!

This was long in waiting, and I know several Anglican friends who are now rejoicing.

This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.


Long live Pope Benedict XVI, the Pope of Unity, now gloriously reigning.

In commemoration, an Anglican Te Deum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si1CfnoRyNw&feature=related
Its amazing, but as conservative as many view His Holiness, it seems that Pope Benedict is doing even more to affect unity than did his predecessor of blessed memory. (I'm thinking of the removal of the excommunication of the SSPX and of this act with TAC).
 

lubeltri

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What makes today's act so unexpected and wonderful is that it goes beyond the TAC's petition. It provides a structure for any groups of Anglicans (TAC included) throughout the world to come into visible communion with the See of Peter.

And even traditional Anglicans who don't join but are very friendly with Catholics (for example, I doubt some priests I know in the Episcopal Missionary Church, one of the Episcopal breakoffs in the USA, will come over) should be happy with the news.

I think going under the Bishop of Rome definitely beats going under the Bishop of Nigeria if you are an non-Evangelical Episcopal congregation in the USA.
 

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lubeltri said:
What makes today's act so unexpected and wonderful is that it goes beyond the TAC's petition. It provides a structure for any groups of Anglicans (TAC included) throughout the world to come into visible communion with the See of Peter.

And even traditional Anglicans who don't join but are very friendly with Catholics (for example, I doubt some priests I know in the Episcopal Missionary Church, one of the Episcopal breakoffs in the USA, will come over) should be happy with the news.

I think going under the Bishop of Rome definitely beats going under the Bishop of Nigeria if you are an non-Evangelical Episcopal congregation in the USA.
Well, its most certainly welcome news and I am hopefull that many of our Anglican brothers and sister will come over the Catholic Church. I have a feeling that such a movement will be much more wide spread on the East Coast than it is here in New Mexico where our favorite word is "manana".
 

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Papist said:
I most certainly believe that His Holiness did this because he wants to bring these Christians back into the fold but I also wonder if one smalll motivation for this act was bringing more traditional Liturgical communities into the Church to aide in the reform of the mass.
Papist, what sort of reforms of the mass do you think the Pope (or others) want to undertake?
 

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android said:
Papist said:
I most certainly believe that His Holiness did this because he wants to bring these Christians back into the fold but I also wonder if one smalll motivation for this act was bringing more traditional Liturgical communities into the Church to aide in the reform of the mass.
Papist, what sort of reforms of the mass do you think the Pope (or others) want to undertake?
Well, after reading some of the former Cardinal Ratzinger's work on the Liturgy I would say here are some of the reforms he would like to make:
1. A return to an ad orientem celebration of the mass
2. A return to sacred music
3. The encouragment of more use of Latin in the Litrugy.
4. Curbing abuses of the liturgy.
His actions as Pope have confrimed this. Also, I think that he has done other things to enrich the Liturgy.
1. He has allowed for a broader use of the Trindetine Liturgy in the hopes that it will help bring the Novus Ordo back to its traditional roots.
2. He is trying to bring the Traditional Anglican Communion into the Catholic Church and I really think that he hopes that they will help to ground the Catholic Church in Traditional Liturgy.
3. While he didn't start the process, a better translation of the Enlish verison of the Novus Ordo is set to be in effect next year and the language is both more traditional and more faithful to the original Latin text.

If anyone is intersted in reading about His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI's views on the Liturgy and the need for reform, I highly suggest his book The Spirit of the Liturgy. I think that there is very little in this book that Eastern Orthodox Christians would find objectionable.
 

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BTW, I think alot the mess we are in with regard to the Liturgy could have been avoided if, rather than the creation of a new mass, we had simply translated the Tridentine Liturgy into the venacular..
 

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I have long been a detractor of Pope Benedict XVI, but now I can understand what is pushing his attitude. I think the Pope feels the urgency of these times. He feels that, if a restoration of church unity doesn't come, Christendom will be endangered in this era more then ever before. I have discussed the problems of this era with my friend for months now, and we both feel that darkness is covering our world, and the "good" churches (I mean, those who preserve, at different degrees, some form of orthodoxy on the essentials of faith) are going to act a role in this age more then before.
The Pope has had many health problems in the last years, and is now probably trying to give an importante change to his Papacy, maybe feeling that his time here due to his age isn't going to be very long. It might be odd, but this pope is really trying to overcome the differences in a different way then his predecessor, and he is proceeding by degrees. His first objective is the end of the Western Catholic schisms (with lefebvrians and anglo-catholics first) and then he could even proceed beyond with the Eastern Churches. At this point, I hope for the Pope trying to translate Scholasticism in Patristics, I mean, to discuss the Latin post-Schism doctrines in a language and culture more familiar to the Greeks. If that happens, a dialogue could be open and - maybe - some of our differences may be overcome, but up to then, our sensibilities remain too distant, and both churches are sincere enough to avoid a formal reunion without a common faith. I also hope in a restoration of the genuine old liturgical tradition of Catholicism as it was during the First Millennium, and it seems that Ratzinger has some sensibility to this point (as he showed for his disaproval of the "ad populum" Mass, for example).
In this moment of sufferings and darkness, maybe there's some hope again. Let's pray altogether that a reunion be possible according to God's will, and that this reunion could take in consideration the necessity of a non-regional faith - I mean, that it might be written in a language with is neither Latinizing nor Hellenizing, but sincerely Ecumenical as it was in the first one thousand years!

Papist said:
android said:
Papist said:
I most certainly believe that His Holiness did this because he wants to bring these Christians back into the fold but I also wonder if one smalll motivation for this act was bringing more traditional Liturgical communities into the Church to aide in the reform of the mass.
Papist, what sort of reforms of the mass do you think the Pope (or others) want to undertake?
Well, after reading some of the former Cardinal Ratzinger's work on the Liturgy I would say here are some of the reforms he would like to make:
1. A return to an ad orientem celebration of the mass
2. A return to sacred music
3. The encouragment of more use of Latin in the Litrugy.
4. Curbing abuses of the liturgy.
His actions as Pope have confrimed this. Also, I think that he has done other things to enrich the Liturgy.
1. He has allowed for a broader use of the Trindetine Liturgy in the hopes that it will help bring the Novus Ordo back to its traditional roots.
2. He is trying to bring the Traditional Anglican Communion into the Catholic Church and I really think that he hopes that they will help to ground the Catholic Church in Traditional Liturgy.
3. While he didn't start the process, a better translation of the Enlish verison of the Novus Ordo is set to be in effect next year and the language is both more traditional and more faithful to the original Latin text.

If anyone is intersted in reading about His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI's views on the Liturgy and the need for reform, I highly suggest his book The Spirit of the Liturgy. I think that there is very little in this book that Eastern Orthodox Christians would find objectionable.
I will surely read it as soon as possible. Ratzinger is maybe the best expert in liturgics in the Roman Catholic Church, and knowing his perspectives might be interesting.
Papist said:
BTW, I think alot the mess we are in with regard to the Liturgy could have been avoided if, rather than the creation of a new mass, we had simply translated the Tridentine Liturgy into the venacular..
That's true, but some corrections before translation might have been useful. I know that Ratzinger himself added three new final salutations in the end of the mass, and I thing he made the right thing, since a plane translation of the Ite, missa est (Go, it's been sent) means absolutely nothing in the vernacular, and the Italian version "La messa è finita andate in pace" (The Mass is over) is terrible. Ratzinger introduced a wonderful version: Ite in pace, glorificando vita vestra Dominum (Go in peace, glorifying the Lord with your life) which shows a great liturgical sensibility: it is in fact similar to the Ambrosian Rite "Procedamus in pace" (Let us go in peace), to the Apostolic constitutions (Ite in pace) and to the Antiochene, Alexandrian and Byzantine Rites ("Let us go forth in peace").
In Christ,   Alex
 

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AlexanderOfBergamo said:
Let's pray altogether that a reunion be possible according to God's will, and that this reunion could take in consideration the necessity of a non-regional faith - I mean, that it might be written in a language with is neither Latinizing nor Hellenizing, but sincerely Ecumenical as it was in the first one thousand years!
One can only hope!!! I love the Thomistic expression of the Catholic faith, but I am well aware that its not the only expression of orthodoxy (lowercase 'o') and I can see the faith expressed in terms that both East and West can understand.
For the reunion of East and West... Lord have mercy.
 

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Papist said:
BTW, I think alot the mess we are in with regard to the Liturgy could have been avoided if, rather than the creation of a new mass, we had simply translated the Tridentine Liturgy into the venacular..
Didn't this originally happen? I thought there was a period of time after the council, between the TLM and the NO, where the Tridentine Mass was said in English.
 

Papist

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wynd said:
Papist said:
BTW, I think alot the mess we are in with regard to the Liturgy could have been avoided if, rather than the creation of a new mass, we had simply translated the Tridentine Liturgy into the venacular..
Didn't this originally happen? I thought there was a period of time after the council, between the TLM and the NO, where the Tridentine Mass was said in English.
I've never heard of this.
 

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Folks, the acceptance of married Anglican priests into the RCC is nothing new. In my neck of the woods, it's been happening for a good 20 years or so, ever since the Anglicans allowed the ordination of women.
 

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LBK said:
Folks, the acceptance of married Anglican priests into the RCC is nothing new. In my neck of the woods, it's been happening for a good 20 years or so, ever since the Anglicans allowed the ordination of women.
Absolutely correct. We actually have had to ex-anglican priests turned Catholic priests in my parish. One was actually the former Espicopalian Bishop for our area.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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I heard this story on National Public Radio in the United States earlier today.  Give it a listen:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=113977725
 

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http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11388

"I think this is the beginning of a Grand Realignment not just of the Anglican world, but of Christendom. A Russian Orthodox priest I know says his Metropolitan is about to fly to Moscow to urge the Patriarch to 'talk faster' with Rome so the Anglicans won't get ahead of the Orthodox and steal the show," an insider told VOL.
Based on what I've read, I prefer Moscow's approach both on social issues / partnership with the RCC (in particular, life issues), and completely separate to that, their approach to talks like the ones going on in Cyprus. I've read things from the MP in the last year that are music to my ears. Also, like Pope Benedict, there's the sense that ecumenical partnerships with Protestants are a dead end. OCA seems to be following suit with respect to the Anglicans - they're dealing almost exclusively with ACNA now and established a bottom line for communion with them, bypassing the "official" Anglican bodies.
 

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ACNA ("Dobson in vestments!") is not the TAC. Elements favour women bishops and the "Calvinist" 39 articles. TAC it should be noted has abandoned the 39 articles and embraces the first seven ecumenical councils. Anyway, Ochlopobist has a good writeup on this. Anglo-Catholics are a better fit with the RCC because of the theological influence of the "A-Team" (Augustine/Anselm/Aquinas). "The delicate coalition that is the ACNA will never join the Orthodox Church as a group, and it seems to me a bit disingenuous to even suggest that this is possible." Translation: some will go to Rome, others to OCA, but not as a group. Anyway the whole thing is worth a read:

http://ochlophobist.blogspot.com/2009/10/on-recent-anglican-matters.html

There's some interesting analysis at Ad Orientem. He also references Anglo-Catholics unhappy with ACNA who might go the OCA:

http://ad-orientem.blogspot.com/2009/10/rome-welcomes-anglo-catholics-into.html

The Roman Catholic Church is going to feel the effects of this as well. The TAC by its own (possibly inflated) estimate has around a half million members. That is more than many of the sui juris uniate Eastern churches in communion with Rome. While Rome has been very careful to avoid referring to this new arrangement as a separate church within the broader Papal communion, it looks like it is going to come very close to that in fact, if perhaps not name.

The potential absorption over the coming years of in excess of 500,000 High Church Anglicans is likely to have broad implications in everything from church discipline on clerical celibacy to liturgy. The Anglicans have a long history of a married clergy. How that is going to work out remains to be seen. They (the High Church wing) also have a liturgical tradition that at least since the disaster of the post Vatican II era is frankly more Catholic than anything Rome has seen in decades. I can not believe that Pope +Benedict, a renowned theologian who has written extensively on the important connection between liturgy and faith, did not have this in mind when preparing his invitation to traditional Anglo-Catholics...

For now, I am prepared to suspend my generally hostile sentiments towards uniatism. Since the Anglican Communion jumped off a theological cliff several decades ago when they started ordaining women, and appear to still be in free fall, I believe the Pope acted correctly from a Roman Catholic perspective. It is obvious to anyone with more than 2 brain cells firing off at the same time that the Anglican Communion is lost to the catholic tradition and thus no hope of corporate reunion can be rationally entertained. In the final analysis this is the requiem for the dream of Pope Paul VI and Archbishop Ramsey of a full blown Anglo-Catholic reunion.
 

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As much as I like Benedict, I have my own theory as to why this is coming about.  The Anglo-Catholics, at least those in the United States, are probably more sympathetic to becoming Orthodox since Orthodoxy does not contain the dogmas and doctrines which, especially for priests, the converts will have to adhere to, namely papal infallability and a few other things.  Why would the pope be willing to hurry the conversion of these traditional Anglicans if issues such as papal infallability, marriage of clergy, etc. are not agreed upon?  My guess (and this is only a guess) is that he is trying to beat the Orthodox to the punch.  He is trying to get as many conservative Anglicans, along with their parishes and finances before they have a chance to consider Orthodoxy as an alternative.  This hurried approach makes me suspcious.  This does not seem to be done in the spirit of oeconomia if there is even such a guiding principle in RC canon law (and I doubt there is).  Conservative Anglicans have been leaving in droves for a long time now.  Some swim the Bosphorus, more swim the Tiber.  Why is it now that they have to hurry this conversion process?  Again, I'm guessing here.  But I am suspicious.
 

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scamandrius said:
As much as I like Benedict, I have my own theory as to why this is coming about.  The Anglo-Catholics, at least those in the United States, are probably more sympathetic to becoming Orthodox since Orthodoxy does not contain the dogmas and doctrines which, especially for priests, the converts will have to adhere to, namely papal infallability and a few other things.  Why would the pope be willing to hurry the conversion of these traditional Anglicans if issues such as papal infallability, marriage of clergy, etc. are not agreed upon?  My guess (and this is only a guess) is that he is trying to beat the Orthodox to the punch.  He is trying to get as many conservative Anglicans, along with their parishes and finances before they have a chance to consider Orthodoxy as an alternative.  This hurried approach makes me suspcious. 
Hurry? The Traditional Anglican Communion signed the Catechism and placed it on Rome's doorstep two years ago. People were beginning to think that Rome would never respond.

This thing has been years in preparation. There was talk of it almost 20 years ago, when the Church of England approved women priests, and there was even talk of it before that.

Now, as for these Anglo-Catholic groups going to EO, if you folks can agree with everything in our Catechism, make sure to tell the TAC that so they can give you a last-minute consideration!

I was an attendee at a traditional Anglican church when I first seriously considered Orthodoxy---my continued belief in Original Sin and the Atonement (common to Western Christians), among other issues, ultimately made that conversion impossible.

---

Of course, these developments have nothing to do with the Eastern Orthodox. It is rather preposterous to claim that this effort at accommodating Anglicans who have peppered Rome with requests for reunion is really an underhanded attempt at grabbing property before the EO get their hands on it. It's not all about you.

Rome can do no right, I guess. She can be accused of poaching allegedly potential EO when she is simply gathering together her own fallen-away children.
 

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scamandrius said:
As much as I like Benedict, I have my own theory as to why this is coming about.  The Anglo-Catholics, at least those in the United States, are probably more sympathetic to becoming Orthodox since Orthodoxy does not contain the dogmas and doctrines which, especially for priests, the converts will have to adhere to, namely papal infallability and a few other things.  Why would the pope be willing to hurry the conversion of these traditional Anglicans if issues such as papal infallability, marriage of clergy, etc. are not agreed upon?  My guess (and this is only a guess) is that he is trying to beat the Orthodox to the punch.  He is trying to get as many conservative Anglicans, along with their parishes and finances before they have a chance to consider Orthodoxy as an alternative.  This hurried approach makes me suspcious.  This does not seem to be done in the spirit of oeconomia if there is even such a guiding principle in RC canon law (and I doubt there is).  Conservative Anglicans have been leaving in droves for a long time now.  Some swim the Bosphorus, more swim the Tiber.  Why is it now that they have to hurry this conversion process?  Again, I'm guessing here.  But I am suspicious.
Can't be always suspicious. If you want my opinion, in this case Benedict is doing EXACTLY what was meant for Peter and his successors: working for unity. Mediation between different components, when following a long and well-established dialogue, was the original function of st. Peter and his successors. For a thousand years, popes have brought forth a campaign of power which has destroyed church unity. If something good has come from John Paul II is a new approach to discuss theological problems with the East. Now, the same is happening in the West with Benedict XVI and the Anglo-Catholics.
Try and see the good in Benedict's actions. Not all authorities (even Rome... it might seem strange I advocate for the Vatican!!!) base their lives on plots, you know?
And now look into the good effects: if a church reunion will happen with Rome, we won't have to work in parallel for the conversion of the Anglo-Catholics: we'll have both together in a package LOL (Just joking)

In Christ,  Alex
 

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Papist said:
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
Let's pray altogether that a reunion be possible according to God's will, and that this reunion could take in consideration the necessity of a non-regional faith - I mean, that it might be written in a language with is neither Latinizing nor Hellenizing, but sincerely Ecumenical as it was in the first one thousand years!
One can only hope!!! I love the Thomistic expression of the Catholic faith, but I am well aware that its not the only expression of orthodoxy (lowercase 'o') and I can see the faith expressed in terms that both East and West can understand.
For the reunion of East and West... Lord have mercy.
Despite his devergences with Eastern theology, Thomas Aquinas is one of the greatest theologians in the West, and I recognize this. His writings (mainly the Summa) are indeed very useful to understand how Rome was not yet so distant from Orthodoxy in the 13th century as its been in the last two centuries. Many of Aquinas' conclusions give support, for example, to the legitimacy of the expression "who proceedth from the Father through the Son", and his disciple who appended the Novissimi section shows a better understanding of purgatory, explaining it as an appendix of hell more then a third state (more or less, the unity of different abodes that Orthodoxy would call "hades"). We might say that Thomism is half way from Eastern Orthodoxy to what the Catholic Church has later become. Also relevant is his refusal for the formal definitions of Immaculate Conception, and I think that bringing the discussion on this doctrine over Thomas' objections might help better in understanding each other. Who knows?

In Christ,  Alex
 

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There's a great deal of sentiment that the TAC provided the impetus for this, and most everyone expects that almost all of it will seize the opportunity. Beyond that there is a lot of wild talk that is not being matched with the actions of those who actually have to make a decision. The generally more measured assessment is that this is largely of appeal to one segment of ACs, those commonly referred to as "Anglo-papists", found almost entirely in England. The evangelicals who energize ACNA get nothing from this and have loudly expressed distaste for the idea. The central and high church people are in the same boat, on top of which their loyalty to ECUSA is too strong to overcome choking down a theology they object to.

More telling, though, is the question that few people are really asking: why haven't ACs already all left? Nobody is really asking why they've stayed thus far, and thus nobody is asking what this proposal has changed that would lead them to abandon their old loyalty.
 

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Keble,

That is easy.  They got what they wanted: their own jurisdiction that keeps unfriendly Latin bishops from denying them their prefered Liturgy.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 

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A couple of interesting things. Cardinal Kasper - who has been busy lately in other ecumenical ventures - gave them a blunt talk last year about whether TEC wanted to resemble more the church of the first millenium ("Catholic and Orthodox") or that of the Reformation. He also invoked St. Cyprian of Carthage and his episcopal ecclesiology. Parts of the speech appear to have been recycled from a 2006 address, where he cited the common "Catholic and Orthodox" exclusion of women in the priesthood during the first millenium, but it's worth a read.

TAC has been at the forefront for this, but the tipping point according to one article that I read was last year's Lambeth conference, which approved female bishops, and ignored Rowan's advice to have a special regime put in place for opponents of a female episcopacy (eg. Forward in Faith) and went ahead and approved the concept.

So half a dozen bishops, having been given cold shoulder by their own church, went to Rome. There was a high-level meeting with a Forward in Faith leader and the Vatican (at the request of Pope Benedict), and Damien Thompson of the Telegraph wondered if this was an even bigger story than the ongoing saga of TAC's quest for a prelature. The "Flying bishops" also had a
separate meeting with Rome. Well, they've got it. And with the blessing of Rowan Williams. What's interesting is that a convert priest is now stating that Rome in the early 1990s came up with a similar regime but it was opposed by RCC and TEC bishop's, although Cardinal Ratzinger was apparently keen on it.

As it is, Forward in Faith is holding off until April 2010 to make up their minds, which not coincidentally will be after the next Anglican synod. This will be a fun bunch to take inside the Roman Catholic church... So many of these players are themselves ex-Catholics (including a female archbishop in the USA).

I came across another story today where the first genesis of a kind of "Uniate" Anglican Rite in communion with Rome may have emanated with Cardinal Newman, whom I guess the pope will beatify in the UK next year.


 

AlexanderOfBergamo

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Keble said:
There's a great deal of sentiment that the TAC provided the impetus for this, and most everyone expects that almost all of it will seize the opportunity. Beyond that there is a lot of wild talk that is not being matched with the actions of those who actually have to make a decision. The generally more measured assessment is that this is largely of appeal to one segment of ACs, those commonly referred to as "Anglo-papists", found almost entirely in England. The evangelicals who energize ACNA get nothing from this and have loudly expressed distaste for the idea. The central and high church people are in the same boat, on top of which their loyalty to ECUSA is too strong to overcome choking down a theology they object to.

More telling, though, is the question that few people are really asking: why haven't ACs already all left? Nobody is really asking why they've stayed thus far, and thus nobody is asking what this proposal has changed that would lead them to abandon their old loyalty.
Fr. Deacon Lance has anticipated one of the main answers: Anglo-Catholics didn't want to introduce the Novus Ordo, and thus they have my sympathies. The status of Personal Ordinariate under the Pope allows them to preserve their own canonical (including married priests) and liturgical traditions even in submission to the Holy See. I can't see any contradiction with this. Englishmen are very fond of independence and self-determination, and that is typical of their culture (look at the many differences with continental Europe: no euro, car driving on the left, and many other forms of autonomy from the EU), and religion is also a fruit of their need for autonomy. Which doesn't mean they don't need any leader.

In Christ,    Alex
 

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What is the difference between Personal Ordinariate and Personal Prelature?
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

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Exactly the same thing, I guess. In fact in all Italian articles I've found it is written "Prelatura Personale" and it is compared to Opus Dei which is, in fact, a Personal Prelature. If there are any differences, I'm not aware of them... but what matters is that they are authorized to full independence from the local church authorities and their direct authority is the Pope himself, whom they respond personally to. Of course, they'll have an inner hiearchy with their own bishops, but the principle "one local church=one bishop" typical of the RCC will not be respected.

In Christ,  Alex
 

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The difference between a Personal Prelature and these Ordinariates:

-the Personal Prelature is worldwide. These Ordinariates will be more like quasi-dioceses, set up in each country.

-the Ordinariates will take on some aspects of a ritual church like those of the Eastern Catholics (their own disciplines---married priests---and liturgy).

Opus Dei priests are Roman rite down the line, with the same disciplines as any Roman-rite diocesan priest. Unlike religious orders, Opus Dei priests take no vows.
 

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AlexanderOfBergamo said:
The status of Personal Ordinariate under the Pope allows them to preserve their own canonical (including married priests) and liturgical traditions even in submission to the Holy See.
There will no preservation of the tradition of married priests under this Anglican structure. Once the structure is established, currently exists married priests will be allowed to remain married priests, but any one who newly marries will place himself outside the set of possible priestly candidates.
Other details of the new rules remain unclear pending their still-unscheduled publication, but Cardinal William Levada, head of the Vatican's doctrinal office, suggested on Tuesday that the new dioceses will not ordain married men unless they have already started their preparation in Anglican seminaries, or permit unmarried priests to take wives after ordination.
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

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The quote you provide doesn't exclude the possibility. And stay sure that the conversion of the Anglo-Catholics would be minimal if their liberty to have ordination of married priests is not included in the "constitution" of this Ordinariate. If Ratzinger is intelligent enough (and I guess he is) he will keep their tradition in existence...

In Christ,  Alex
 

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AlexanderOfBergamo said:
The quote you provide doesn't exclude the possibility. And stay sure that the conversion of the Anglo-Catholics would be minimal if their liberty to have ordination of married priests is not included in the "constitution" of this Ordinariate. If Ratzinger is intelligent enough (and I guess he is) he will keep their tradition in existence...

In Christ,   Alex
Anglo-Catholic is a family of organisms, most of whom hold to Anglican, not Roman Catholic, teachings. TAC is a specific genus, a genus that has already explicitly signed off on Catholic dogma. This new Anglican structure was created especially with TAC in mind, not Anglo-Catholics in general.

Benedict XVI is intelligent, which is why he would not allow a tradition of married priests to exist in the Western Church as a result of this Anglican structure. Eastern Catholics in America follow the Latin Church on this issue; why would the Vatican allow Anglicans to have married priests as a supported tradition?
 

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Jetavan said:
Eastern Catholics in America follow the Latin Church on this issue; why would the Vatican allow Anglicans to have married priests as a supported tradition?
They do not any longer.  Eastern Catholics are free to ordain married men to the prebyterate in America or anywhere else.  Most Eastern bishops are exercising the right to do so.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 

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This thread should be renamed as "The Roman Catholic Church predates on the Anglican Church".

This predatory and very aggressive form of proselytism, shows that the RCC is still the very same expansionist, totalitarian, and megalomaniac institution.

Not only the Anglican Church is suffering from this forms of attacks, the Coptic Church in Egypt, and the Orthodox Churches of eastern Europe, are being attacked with this same tactic (Catholics of coptic rite, uniats, byzantine catholics, ukrainian catholics, etc.."
 

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Why don't you take up your paranoid claims with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has signed off on this? Or the many Anglicans who have been pestering the Holy See for years with requests for this?

Nah, something tells me you would rather just stew in your anti-Catholic bigotry.
 
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IPC said:
This thread should be renamed as "The Roman Catholic Church predates on the Anglican Church".

This predatory and very aggressive form of proselytism, shows that the RCC is still the very same expansionist, totalitarian, and megalomaniac institution.

Not only the Anglican Church is suffering from this forms of attacks, the Coptic Church in Egypt, and the Orthodox Churches of eastern Europe, are being attacked with this same tactic (Catholics of coptic rite, uniats, byzantine catholics, ukrainian catholics, etc.."
How is Rome being a predator here? Nobody is FORCING anyone to join communion with Rome unless they want to. If a person desires to remain in Communion with Canterbury, they may do so. However, there are a group of Anglicans who have been pursuing communion with Rome for years, and Rome is granting their request.

Yes, I see why you think that is predatory. Awful of Rome to give people what they are asking for. Absolutely terrible!  ::)
 
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lubeltri said:
Why don't you take up your paranoid claims with the Archbishop of Canterbury, who has signed off on this? Or the many Anglicans who have been pestering the Holy See for years with requests for this?

Nah, something tells me you would rather just stew in your anti-Catholic bigotry.
Why should he believe the facts when it's so much more fun to make new ones up!  ::)  ;)
 

Pravoslavbob

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Deacon Lance said:
Jetavan said:
Eastern Catholics in America follow the Latin Church on this issue; why would the Vatican allow Anglicans to have married priests as a supported tradition?
They do not any longer.  Eastern Catholics are free to ordain married men to the prebyterate in America or anywhere else.  Most Eastern bishops are exercising the right to do so.

Fr. Deacon Lance
You know full well that you are not telling the whole story when you say this, Deacon Lance.  Do we really need to open this can of worms again?
 
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