Bilingual Romanian - English services

[BasilCan]

Looking for a bilingual book or pdf of the Matins and Vespers services. There are many sources for the Divine liturgy but I can't find these services.

 

[augustin717]

I don’t know any bilingual materials ( the Romanian jurisdictions here may have some) but if you are familiar with the Slavonic and Greek liturgical terminology it would be relatively easy to compare the Romanian text to the English. Romanian liturgical terms are mainly Slavonic: glas ( tone), vecernie, utrenie, stih, stihiră, stihoavnă, otpust, praznic, svetilnă, pripeală, priceasnă/chinonic,
.

 

[augustin717]

Here you have a quasi-complete liturgica library in Romanian :

Sitemap - Ceaslovul cel Mare

Să stăm bine să stăm cu frică să luăm aminte !

sites.google.com

 

[ilyazhito]

It would be curious to see if the Moldovans have a Romanian-Slavonic bilingual resource. A major monastery in Bucovina serves in a combination of Slavonic and Romanian, so I imagine that at least the clergy there would have combined service books, to avoid having to use 2 books at once.

 

[Dominika]

It would be curious to see if the Moldovans have a Romanian-Slavonic bilingual resource. A major monastery in Bucovina serves in a combination of Slavonic and Romanian, so I imagine that at least the clergy there would have combined service books, to avoid having to use 2 books at once.

I think (I'm not pretty sure, as it was 8 years ago) I saw in a village parish in Moldova prayerbook in Romanian, but in Cyryllic

 

[RaphaCam]

I think (I'm not pretty sure, as it was 8 years ago) I saw in a village parish in Moldova prayerbook in Romanian, but in Cyryllic

There is something I'd be eager to add to my collection...

 

[Fr.Andrei]

I would like that book as well.

 

[augustin717]

Most Romanian writings up to the middle of the 19th century used the Cyrillic ( few extra signs ) alphabet. The use of the Latin alphabet started in Transylvania in the 18th century but only became universal after 1860.

 

[Fr.Andrei]

I don't want to start ethnic conflict and I actually like the Hungarians. I believe at that time they forbade the Cyrillic alphabet. The Greek Catholic Slavs had to use the Church Slavonic script even in secular writing.
I used to have a Greek Catholic extensive prayer book( including all the variables for the eight tones, the Paschal services, etc.) It was written entirely in Church Slavonic with the Hungarian rendition of the Latin alphabet.

 

[Fr.Andrei]

PS.
I mentioned the Hungarians only because Transylvania was part of their kingdom at that. I realize to this day that Transylvania is a sore point in Hungarian-Romanian relations. I speak as an outsider with good feelings towards both peoples.

 

[augustin717]

I’m not aware of the Hungarian authorities ever caring for whatever alphabet anyone used. But, in areas of north-east Hungary there was some magyarisation going on which could explain the loss of the Cyrillic alphabet among some Ruthenians. As with the infamous creation of the Hajdudorog diocese in 1911, some RutInenian but also some Romanian GC also lost their ancestral vernaculars, to the point where they considered themselves Hungarians of the Greek rite.
A minority of the Orthodox suffered the same fate, coming either directly from the Orthodox Church ( like the small but very rich and influential Greek/Aromanian community) or some after a few century sojourn in the GCC. They form today the Muscovite jurisdiction in Hungary, a Stalinist creation , even though historically they had no links to Russia.
The Hajdudorog diocese forms the basis of the GCC of Hungary today .
any case, no central Hungarian or Austro-Hungarian authority dictated what alphabet to be used in a prayer book.

 

[Fr.Andrei]

My information comes from my nephew through marriage. He was actually born a Byzantine Catholic, studied at Sts. Cyril and Methodius Seminary in Pittsburgh. He later converted to Orthodoxy and was my roommate at St. Tikhon's.
Today, he serves an OCA parish in California.

 

[augustin717]

The Romanians both Orthodox and GC in the Habsburg monarchy still mostly used the Cyrillic alphabet until the middle of the 19th century. Then when the change came it was the result of an entirely internal process with vigorous debates in the Romanian press. The state authorities didn’t care one way or another. I have reasons to think the Ruthenian situation wasn’t all that different, but when a population say at the beginning of the 20th century has lost or nearly lost its vernacular and the use of the alphabet in which it was written but belongs to a church that performs services in a language written in that alphabet it makes sense to transliterate those services.
The loss of language had a lot to do with the situation of the confessional school system and the advancement of state education. I don’t know the Rutheniian situation but Romanians retained until 1918 a very strong network of confessional churches which helped preserve the language even though it would have been cheaper to just accept state schools but they saw in them as a means of Magyarisation .

 

[augustin717]

Especially under Appony there was an effort to increase the Magyar population by bringing in Slavs and others but that was late in the game.

 

[augustin717]

The Greek rite certainly existed among Hungarians ( may even precede the Latin rite) but iirc the historians opinion is that it died out after the Mongolian invasions of 1240. But archeological traces and artifacts of it exist. However neither the current Hungarian GCC or the Hungarian OC have any historical connection to it.

 

[RaphaCam]

However neither the current Hungarian GCC or the Hungarian OC have any historical connection to it.

They're magyarised Slavs and Romanians, right?

 

[augustin717]

More or less, yes.

 

[augustin717]

On the other hand, given the post Trianon reality, the only future orthodoxy would have in Hungary would be by adopting the Hungarian language to an extent at least . But the Romanian church which is the largest jurisdiction , yet shrinking, would rather close shop as Romanian than introduce any Hungarian in services. The Serbs seem the same.
They continue the same line from the Dual monarchy days, but under completely different circumstances. Back then they could afford to resist magyarisation because there were millions of orthodox in Hungary, now, after the new borders have been traced people have been lost not only to magyarisation but also to the orthodox religion. I’ve listened to some Romanian priests from Hungary address this situation and they think it’s sad, but have made peace with the idea that once the Romanian language has died out, they’ll put locks on the churches . Even the Romanian patriarchate seems to think the same, that’s why they took over the Hungarian Eparchy which historically had nothing to do with Bucharest but was administered from Arad. It’s probably the real estate they are interested in.

 

[ilyazhito]

On the other hand, given the post Trianon reality, the only future orthodoxy would have in Hungary would be by adopting the Hungarian language to an extent at least . But the Romanian church which is the largest jurisdiction , yet shrinking, would rather close shop as Romanian than introduce any Hungarian in services. The Serbs seem the same.
They continue the same line from the Dual monarchy days, but under completely different circumstances. Back then they could afford to resist magyarisation because there were millions of orthodox in Hungary, now, after the new borders have been traced people have been lost not only to magyarisation but also to the orthodox religion. I’ve listened to some Romanian priests from Hungary address this situation and they think it’s sad, but have made peace with the idea that once the Romanian language has died out, they’ll put locks on the churches . Even the Romanian patriarchate seems to think the same, that’s why they took over the Hungarian Eparchy which historically had nothing to do with Bucharest but was administered from Arad. It’s probably the real estate they are interested in.

That is wrong. Orthodox clergy should seek to minister to any faithful, even those of a different background. The Russian Orthodox Church Diocese of Budapest and Hungary has some Hungarian-language parishes, some combined (Holy Trinity/Holy Dormition Cathedral in Budapest has both clergy who serve in Hungarian and those who serve in Slavonic), and some parishes that serve in Slavonic. They are doing something to minister to Hungarians, and it is a pity that they are the only ones making any serious effort to expand the Church beyond their ethnic group.

 

[Fr.Andrei]

Well, then I would like to get hold of Hungarian-Slavonic service book, if such is available.

 

[augustin717]

i think it’s most likely that the GC of Hajdudorog may have something like that or perhaps l even the Russian diocese although that’s created of parishes that were founded by rich Greek-aromanian merchants and used Greek rather than Slavonic before switching to Hungarian.

 

[augustin717]

Here you have a pretty extensive colecțion of liturgical chant samples in Hungarian:

Hajdúdorogi Főegyházmegye

hd.gorogkatolikus.hu

 

[Fr.Andrei]

My parish is made up of Carpatho Rusyns. We use the same chant in English

 

[augustin717]

I didn't recognize it, but it makes sense. Romanians in Hungary use a different style.,

 

[RaphaCam]

More or less, yes.

So what's the rest of the story?

 

[augustin717]

The parishes that came under Moscow in 1949 are old Greco-Romanian parishes founded by rich merchants from northern Greece, Albania, that moved to Hungary in the 18th century and were able to buy certain privileges . The service were conductei in Greek and Romanian , sometimes there were conflicts between the two ethnicities, but this was the situation until at least the end of the 19th century . They were under the jurisdiction of the Karlovci patriarchate. Afger 1918 iirc some come under the jurisdiction of the EP bishop in Vienna , some probably stay under the Serbs I’m not really sure about this period. The thing is is that this relatively small but rich community was already Magyarized by 1918. And then the communist regime comes to Hungary and they are transferred to Moscow as both the EP and the Serbs were deemed unacceptable by the komisars. I’ve of course read about individual Hungarians conversions to this Hungarian Orthodox Church but its history and material patrimony attest to its Greco-Romanian origin.

 

[augustin717]

I should add this: that in 1865 when the canonical “dismembered “ between the Serbs and the Romanians in Hungary happened these were parishes that even though they had Romanian communities since they were under the bishop of Buda, they stayed with the Serbs. They were kinda far from the compact Romanian areas in the diocese of Arad and Caransebeș ( The latter being created out of the Romanian parishes in Banat, previously under Vrsac).

 

[augustin717]

Here you have a more exact account of the Orthodox community’s situation in interwar Hungary:

Magyarország a XX. században / Az ortodox keleti keresztény (görögkeleti) egyházak (19191944)

 

[augustin717]

And the ‘45-‘89 interval:

Magyarország a XX. században / Az ortodox keleti keresztény (görögkeleti) egyházak (1945-1989)