Bishop Williamson lashes out against the Jews again

[Ioannis Climacus]

Your last two posts convince me all the more that you must consult your pastor. Your convictions are not those of your jurisdiction. You need spiritual peace to resolve your inner conflicts and I hope that many of us will pray for you and with you.

Emphasis mine.

And this is where we run in to trouble. It's great to be able to follow the leadership of your jurisdiction, but where do does one draw the line? Had I lived at the time of the Great Schism (in the west), would it have been preferable to align my convictions with that of my bishop? Had I lived at the time of the First Ecumenical Council (and my bishop had Arian leanings), would it have been reasonable to devote myself entirely to his teachings?

When a bishop (or even a synod) in the Church teaches something contrary to what is written (by either the councils or the fathers), I have a duty to follow the traditional teachings of the Church (and consequently disregarding the words of the bishop).

Any prayers would most certainly be welcome.

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

Yeah but you just added a couple years by telling him he'll grow out of it. 

Then allow me to ask my older and wiser brothers in the Faith a simple question :

Where do I go from here? I have most certainly been over-zealous in the past - something which I regret and indeed apologize for. The vast majority of my writings, however, have basis in the words of both reposed and living saints. To whose writings should I look once I have out grown these?

 

[Seth84]

Well I'm older, not wiser, but I'll answer anyway.

The one thing that I rail against more than anything is sectarianism within the Church.  If you have a belief that you would like validated, you can probably go to the Fathers and find something that will.  If you want a "conservative" Orthodoxy you can go to Orthodox Christian Information Center and they will provide you with a specific set of Fathers and specific works of theirs to defend their position.  If you want a more "liberal" Orthodoxy you can contact Orthodox Peace Fellowship and they will direct you to specific saints, elders, bishops, and priests.  Let's say you want Old Calendar Orthodoxy, the Holy Synod in Resistance/CTOS has a whole host of writing you might enjoy.  If you want an Orthodoxy that says that the "World Orthodox" are graceless, I can also lead you to some elders, bishops, and priests who will support that. 

The problem with that kind of approach is that it is inherently deficient.  It is carefully selecting Fathers to defend a particular viewpoint.  Usually those who follow such an approach are seeking to glorify themselves, their human reasoning, much like what Gregory is doing on that other thread. Or, one is naive and doesn't realize that what they are being fed is a selective Orthodoxy.  They are being led to read specific Fathers and they begin to think "Well all the Fathers I read say_____, therefore it must be what the Church teaches."  One must seek out the whole.

Yeah but you just added a couple years by telling him he'll grow out of it. 

Then allow me to ask my older and wiser brothers in the Faith a simple question :

Where do I go from here? I have most certainly been over-zealous in the past - something which I regret and indeed apologize for. The vast majority of my writings, however, have basis in the words of both reposed and living saints. To whose writings should I look once I have out grown these?

 

[podkarpatska]

Well I'm older, not wiser, but I'll answer anyway.

The one thing that I rail against more than anything is sectarianism within the Church.  If you have a belief that you would like validated, you can probably go to the Fathers and find something that will.  If you want a "conservative" Orthodoxy you can go to Orthodox Christian Information Center and they will provide you with a specific set of Fathers and specific works of theirs to defend their position.  If you want a more "liberal" Orthodoxy you can contact Orthodox Peace Fellowship and they will direct you to specific saints, elders, bishops, and priests.  Let's say you want Old Calendar Orthodoxy, the Holy Synod in Resistance/CTOS has a whole host of writing you might enjoy.  If you want an Orthodoxy that says that the "World Orthodox" are graceless, I can also lead you to some elders, bishops, and priests who will support that. 

The problem with that kind of approach is that it is inherently deficient.  It is carefully selecting Fathers to defend a particular viewpoint.  Usually those who follow such an approach are seeking to glorify themselves, their human reasoning, much like what Gregory is doing on that other thread. Or, one is naive and doesn't realize that what they are being fed is a selective Orthodoxy.  They are being led to read specific Fathers and they begin to think "Well all the Fathers I read say_____, therefore it must be what the Church teaches."  One must seek out the whole.

Yeah but you just added a couple years by telling him he'll grow out of it. 

Then allow me to ask my older and wiser brothers in the Faith a simple question :

Where do I go from here? I have most certainly been over-zealous in the past - something which I regret and indeed apologize for. The vast majority of my writings, however, have basis in the words of both reposed and living saints. To whose writings should I look once I have out grown these?

In another thread on a different subject I just said much the same, "I think that all of us professing the faith in our very different parishes, some extremely traditional - others - well,not so much ( really, both can be 'OK' and both are found throughout Church history)....have to find the strengths and the weaknesses that we each bring with us."

If one searches for 'real, absolute Orthodoxy' in this life, I fear he will be disappointed. Look,the reality is that our Dogmas, our Doctrines were molded together in the way they are handed down to us over time. Unlike the Mormons, we didn't find Scripture, Tradition or the Fathers 'under a rock'. It is probably an easier path for some to find solace in such a faith system- however that is not the way of Orthodoxy.

A dear friend of mine who was a priest and who died far too young once put it this way in a sermon: We are not called to a smorgasbord of faith, or a salad bar of Orthodoxy - a little of this, or a little of that... If we are searching for the True Faith, we have to look inward to our own soul, and with the assistance of the 'external' Church and all of Her teachings and all of her Saints and in all of God's temples - be it the greatest Cathedral built or simplest wooden frame hut - we can only try to find it.

The greatest Fathers of the Church wrote and said some of the most unpalatable, and subsequently undogmatic things.You can find those writings from many sources. Yet, those who accepted the consensus of the Church on Earth and moved beyond those errors, they became pillars of the Faith. I don't think anything less is expected from us in our own way as no one is given a burden too great for them to handle.

By the way, the aforementioned Orthodox Information Center, which I rarely cite, has a wonderful article about the very writings of St. John Chrysostom which prompted this exchange. I highly recommend it, although I don't completely agree:  http://orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/antisemitism.aspx

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

Well I'm older, not wiser, but I'll answer anyway.

The one thing that I rail against more than anything is sectarianism within the Church.  If you have a belief that you would like validated, you can probably go to the Fathers and find something that will.  If you want a "conservative" Orthodoxy you can go to Orthodox Christian Information Center and they will provide you with a specific set of Fathers and specific works of theirs to defend their position.  If you want a more "liberal" Orthodoxy you can contact Orthodox Peace Fellowship and they will direct you to specific saints, elders, bishops, and priests.  Let's say you want Old Calendar Orthodoxy, the Holy Synod in Resistance/CTOS has a whole host of writing you might enjoy.  If you want an Orthodoxy that says that the "World Orthodox" are graceless, I can also lead you to some elders, bishops, and priests who will support that. 

The problem with that kind of approach is that it is inherently deficient.  It is carefully selecting Fathers to defend a particular viewpoint.  Usually those who follow such an approach are seeking to glorify themselves, their human reasoning, much like what Gregory is doing on that other thread. Or, one is naive and doesn't realize that what they are being fed is a selective Orthodoxy.  They are being led to read specific Fathers and they begin to think "Well all the Fathers I read say_____, therefore it must be what the Church teaches."  One must seek out the whole.

In large, I agree with you, Ionnis, but would you not say we run an equally dangerous risk of ignoring the harder sayings of the fathers on the grounds that such things do not represent the Church? From your point of view, what should be made of the early Church writings against the Jews? Would you say they speak for the Church? When we are talking about people who have seen the uncreated energy of God, I have an incredibly difficult time contradicting them.

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored in favor of the views of more ecumenical minded hierarchs in the Church? What should, in your opinion, a good Orthodox layman believe?

I ask in all sincerity because, regardless of whether or not you recognize it, you are one of the wisest members of OC.net. I would take your opinion to heart more than most.

 

[Seth84]

Oh goodness.  Ioannis, please do not say anything like that about me.  Please.

This is a complicated discussion, truly.  I'll admit I don't have many answers.  I'm a judgmental person, so I often see what is wrong in what others believe, but I have a truly difficult time providing any alternatives.  I don't know how one should be more balanced and I don't know what one should believe.  I don't.  I have beliefs about certain things that I am unsure of, or that don't appear to have a consensus, and so I remain quiet about them. 

But to answer your question: I know what Elder Ephraim and Elder Paisios believe.  Your summary of their belief on the issue is incorrect.  All that I will say is that I don't necessarily disagree with them on the issue. 

 

[Jonathan Gress]

To be honest, as much as Bishop Williamson's Jewish obsessions are unnerving, he has kind of a point, at least about Zionist Jews. If they really think that two thousand years of exile haven't abrogated their ancient rights to the Land of Israel, it becomes a little harder for them to deny accusations of complicity in deicide by saying that such accusations only relate to their ancestors. I suppose that would mean that non-Zionist Jews get off the hook more easily.

For the record, I don't believe in an actual Jewish conspiracy, i.e. literal groups of Jews convening in specific locations (physical or virtual) to plot how to destroy Western society and subjugate the world. Likewise I don't believe in a literal Masonic conspiracy. I would agree that the modern West, and those parts of the world that are adopting Western values, can nevertheless be described as a Masonic, and, at least in America, a Zionist society, since the core values of Masonry and Zionism have been so thoroughly absorbed by the political elites (whether or not they are actually Masons or Jews) that there isn't really a need anymore for such a conspiracy. We see this is in the enormous difficulty anyone faces who tries to preach publicly that there is only one true, saving faith, that there is absolute, revealed truth, or absolute right and wrong, which all to some degree contradict Masonic teaching, and the way in which Jews have come to be held above criticism as a group, while Christianity has come to be uniquely vilified by the secular elites. Of course, there are more complicated developments within this trend, e.g. the opposition to Zionism of the New Left, which has its origin in Soviet propaganda, while the New Right has for various reasons adopted Zionist values, and even Freemasonry is now more often than not associated with political conservatism, not revolution. Nevertheless, I think I'm right as to the overall developments in our culture.

 

[Keble]

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?

Off the top of my head? Genocide against the Palestinians, the false-flag operation known as 9/11, murder of the Russian Tsar (and creation of the Soviet Union), the Lavon affair, the USS Liberty incident.

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.

And Don't even think of pressing this "false flag" nonsense. No Jew had anything to do with 9/11, except to be crushed by a falling building.

 

[Benjamin the Red]

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics. Heirs to the promise that rejected the True Faith (that is, obviously, faith in Christ). They crucified him. However, we cannot blame today's Jews for their blasphemy any more than I could be blamed for the Spanish Inquisition.

At the same time, Jews (as a people) have separated themselves from the People of God, now revealed in the Church. I'm personally not a fan of interfaith dialogue. I don't really see the point. All Jews are free and welcome to join the Church and participate fully in Her mystical life. Areligious Jews (the majority today, it seems) might as well be counted simply as atheists, and religious Jews counted as heretics and simply ignored. They have nothing to do with the life of the Church.

Now, Zionists are quite meddling and dangerous. They are religious zealots, but again...that has nothing to do with the Church. Crazy religious Jews or sane religious Jews, they are a withered olive branch, until they decide to be grafted back in. No reason really to talk about them at all, and especially cause such scandal, though I don't generally approve of meeting with Jews for "dialogue" (or Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, etc.), Bishop Williamson needs to keep his mouth shut.

 

[stanley123]

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others? If I look at the number of lawyers, doctors, professors, chess players, mathematicians, Nobel Prize winners, bankers, I see that the percentage of Jews in these professions and areas is much greater than the percentage of Jews in the overall world population? In fact, at various times, different countries have put limitations on the number of Jews who could apply for such positions.

 

[stanley123]

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award.

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

 

[Jetavan]

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics

...and the first Christians.

 

[Keble]

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.

 

[Jetavan]

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?

A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture. There's also the fact that Jews are more globally/internationally oriented than most Western European groups (because Jews originated outside of Western Europe), which is conducive to a bi- or multi-lingualism that helps in business and in intellectual sophistication.

These characteristics are common among successful groups. You see this success also among the brahmins in Hinduism, as well as the Jains.

 

[vasily]

The latter: "Expressing reality as he sees it?"  Is he deluded?

The Jews funded the Nazi's. Regardless of the amount of evidence supporting this claim, it will certainly initiate an emotional response. The media has planted in the minds of all that such statements are anti-Semitic.


Since when did the Jews become the most innocent people on earth? I can criticize the English, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese, the Egyptians, etc. for every wrong they have ever committed and yet I am not seen as "prejudiced", but the moment I bring up Jewish wrongs, I am lambasted by the media and ostracized from society.

Jews funded the Nazis? Can you provide proof of this, beyond, say 1935?  Did they also finance the building of the concentration camps?  That's a little like claiming Jesus committed suicide because he was a Jew and the Jews committed deicide, ergo....  Interesting.

I don't recall *anyone* saying the Jews were "the most innocent people on earth".  Ever.  Where'd you get that idea?

You're lambasted by media and ostracized from society for bringing up "Jewish wrongs"?  Perhaps for good reason.  Which "wrongs" would those be?

The Jewish bankers funded the Nazi movement. Germany's financial institutions were controlled by the Jews. Just look at the control and power of the Rothschilds.
The idea that the Holocaust is persistently brought up and used to create an impression that the victims,the Jews only, were completely innocent. Meanwhile, the list of other innocent victims during World War I is endless and not discussed.
The Russian Revolution was also funded by Jewish bankers. Trotsky made a number of trips to New York and was connected to Jacob H. Schiff, a prominent banker.
These facts in history are completely ignored and when they are brought to light, the term anti-semite is is used to silence the truth.

 

[podkarpatska]

This video is almost two hours long. It is from 1998 and the Archons of St. Andrew's honoring Elie Weisal with the Patriarch Athenagoras Huminatarian Award.

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

Seriously, giving 'cred' to a group proudly calling itself the 'Gnostic Liberation Front?'  

 

[Cognomen]

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?

A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture.

I think that part is a bit of a stretch.  Many Jews lack a real religious culture at all, much less one that demands high attention to ritualistic detail.  They aren't just pharisees (not using in a pejorative sense) transported to modern times.

Take the composition of the current state of Israel.  The very religious, i.e. ultra-Orthodox, while focusing on ritualistic detail are, by many standards, not successful and must be supported by the state. 

Still, there's something that clearly leads to an intelligent, industrious folk, and the Hindu/Jain comparison (particularly those in the Anglosphere) is notable.  Then again, I know plenty of industrious, successful Hindus who've never been to a temple or performed any rituals.

 

[Ebor]

I looked at the linked to site and I wonder why the author has pinched the cover art for the Larry Niven book SF book Destiny's Road first published in 1997, as am illustration for the section titled "Creating Effective Occult War Counter-Strategies"?!?  ???

 

[NicholasMyra]

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored

Yes. They were monks, not politicians, political scientists, or historians. If someone told them a silly conspiracy theory, they'd probably believe it out of innocent ignorance. Like the innocent man who believed the feather that men brought to him was that of an angel.

 

[Jonathan Gress]

Are Jews smarter than Christians or others?

A cultural and religious emphasis upon critical analysis of the written word, and a religious culture that demands high attention to ritualistic detail, tends to produce a certain level of intellectual sophistication in the members of that culture.

I think that part is a bit of a stretch.  Many Jews lack a real religious culture at all, much less one that demands high attention to ritualistic detail.  They aren't just pharisees (not using in a pejorative sense) transported to modern times.

Take the composition of the current state of Israel.  The very religious, i.e. ultra-Orthodox, while focusing on ritualistic detail are, by many standards, not successful and must be supported by the state. 

Still, there's something that clearly leads to an intelligent, industrious folk, and the Hindu/Jain comparison (particularly those in the Anglosphere) is notable.  Then again, I know plenty of industrious, successful Hindus who've never been to a temple or performed any rituals.

There have actually been a number of studies purporting to show that Ashkenazi (not Sephardi or Mizrachi) Jews have a higher average IQ than other European populations. I think the cultural and historical factors Jetavan mentions are at least part of the reason why IQ rose, i.e. because of the special social and economic situation of Jews in Medieval Western Europe (where the Ashkenazim originated), the most successful, and hence reproductive, members of the community tended to be the most intelligent. It's sort of a confirmation of traditional anti-Semitic caricatures: Jews just are better with numbers i.e. money and at outsmarting dumb gullible goyim (goyishe kop, anyone?), because they had to be to survive in the hostile climate of late feudal Europe. I say "late feudal" since that is really the period that saw the status of Jews plummet, e.g. when kingdoms started expelling them en masse; in late antiquity Jews were apparently quite powerful, or at least not under great hostile pressure (see work on the subject by a Bernard Bachrach). There's an evolutionary psychologist named Kevin MacDonald who's done a ton of research on this (kind of at the expense of his reputation among liberal academics).

Anyway, because this higher IQ became established in the genetic code of Ashkenazim, that is why you see Jews being smarter on average regardless of whether or not they practice their religion or are even particularly Judaic in their culture.

 

[Cognomen]

^ Excellent points.  I wasn't disputing that social and cultural factors contributed, but I think I viewed Jetavan's "ritualistic detail" comment too exclusively through a liturgical lens.  I'm on board now!

Plus, I tend to argue with Jetavan out of habit (sorry, Jetavan :hi-five)

 

[Benjamin the Red]

As Christians, we shouldn't hate anyone.

However, we have to realize that there is an anti-Jewish sentiment within our faith. Why? The Jews are the first heretics

...and the first Christians.

That isn't what I mean. Any idiot knows the first Christians were Jewish by decent, and we readily admit that the Israelite faith of the OT is our same faith. However, The Jewish people (embodied in their rabbis, the scribes, the chief priest, etc.) as a whole rejected Christ and are the first heretics.

If you actually read further down on my post, you would've read:

At the same time, Jews (as a people) have separated themselves from the People of God, now revealed in the Church...All Jews are free and welcome to join the Church and participate fully in Her mystical life.

[Religious Jews] are a withered olive branch, until they decide to be grafted back in.

And, I do mean withered. Their religious system is quite defunct. Modern Judaism is "Rabbinical Judaism" (except the Karaite, but they're a different story). For nearly 2,000 years they have not offered the sacrifices required by the Law. Their priests serve a very vestigial role in their religious life. The main player for them now is the rabbi, who is not a priest but an elder layman who has no actually spiritual authority. He leads the synogogue due to his experience and knowledge. The central aspect of the Israelite faith, the Temple. has been completely removed from what we today call Judaism.

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.

And Don't even think of pressing this "false flag" nonsense. No Jew had anything to do with 9/11, except to be crushed by a falling building.

How sincere Yurovsky's conversion was, I know not. The fact that he worked with Jews G.P. Nikulin, P.Z. Yermakov, and S.P. Vaganov in the murder warrants some attention. What do you make of the Kabbalistic inscription found in the room of the Tsar's murder? 

Keble, who do you suspect was behind 9/11? What do you make of the celebrating Israeli's following the attacks?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8FlSWitOpg&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL5E9FA7EC5702C5D8

 

[Jetavan]

^ Excellent points.  I wasn't disputing that social and cultural factors contributed, but I think I viewed Jetavan's "ritualistic detail" comment too exclusively through a liturgical lens.  I'm on board now!

Plus, I tend to argue with Jetavan out of habit (sorry, Jetavan :hi-five)

No problem. 8)

I agree that many modern Jews are not all that ritualistic, but I would suggest that the ritualism (and I use 'ritualism' in a neutral, rather than pejorative, sense) practiced by their ancestors can produce a non-religious, secular culture in which -- even though the religious beliefs are gone -- the cultural practices remain. Max Weber talked about a similar process occurring among Protestants, especially Calvinists, who initially tied "work" with "salvation"; but whose descendants (those American Yankee capitalists) lost the religious belief, but kept the emphasis upon "work, work, work" -- the "Protestant Work-Ethic", so called.

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust? Many men throughout history have held a bizarre assortment of beliefs (Tesla, Newton, etc.), but neither their worldviews (or personalities) should discredit the evidence provided.

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

What is to be made of Elder Paisios and Elder Ephraim's writings concerning a Jewish conspiracy to destroy Christianity? Should they be ignored

Yes. They were monks, not politicians, political scientists, or historians. If someone told them a silly conspiracy theory, they'd probably believe it out of innocent ignorance. Like the innocent man who believed the feather that men brought to him was that of an angel.

God often relates prophecies to the glorified. In fact, Elder Paisios foretold that the Jewish-dominated West would lead a persecution against Christians, which in turn would cause Christians to unify. Saint Iaint posted a large segment of his writings :

http://christconquers.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/elder-paisios-against-zionists-and-cowardly-orthodox/

 

[Seth84]

Ioannis, why do you speak of 'Jew' and 'Zionist' as if they were synonyms?

Also, where does that letter of Elder Paisios come from?  Please give me the name of the work that it is taken from.  I have read much of Elder Paisios and have not come across that letter.  [Nevermind.  I have been informed that Esphigmenou Monastery has stated that it isn't the work of Elder Paisios.]

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

Ioannis, why do you speak of 'Jew' and 'Zionist' as if they were synonyms?

Also, where does that letter of Elder Paisios come from?  Please give me the name of the work that it is taken from.  I have read much of Elder Paisios and have not come across that letter. 

While not always synonymous, the most prominent Zionists in western politics/economics, are often Jews themselves (many times possessing dual-Israeli citizenship).

It comes from the book Signs of the Times - 666. To the best of my knowledge, a full English translation has not yet been released.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.cartiortodoxe.ro/cartea-carte/129915-semnele-vremurilor---666-cuviosul-paisie-aghioritul.html&prev=_m

[Nevermind.  I have been informed that Esphigmenou Monastery has stated that it isn't the work of Elder Paisios.]

Where have you heard this?

 

[Jonathan Gress]

I didn't think Elder Paisios was associated with Esphigmenou. Paisios was a commemorator of the ecumenist EP, not a Zealot.

 

[PeterTheAleut]

This thread started as a commentary on one specific SSPX Bishop Richard Williamson and his particular statements regarding the Jews. How does the general commentary on the Jews, Zionism, antisemitism, etc., that I've seen in the last several posts fit that subject?

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

This thread started as a commentary on one specific SSPX Bishop Richard Williamson and his particular statements regarding the Jews. How does the general commentary on the Jews, Zionism, antisemitism, etc., that I've seen in the last several posts fit that subject?

This happens in about every thread dealing with anti-Semitism. It goes something like this :

Poster A : This is anti-Semitic and wrong.
Poster B : It's neither anti-Semitic nor wrong.
Poster A : How so?

etc.

 

[Keble]

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.

 

[Ioannis Climacus]

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.

That form of argument is known as ad hominem. The fact that the individual in question is a white supremacist (I take your word for it) has no bearing on whether or not his research adequately disproves the claims of Elie Wiesel.

Come on Keble, I expect more from the self-proclaimed "Grand Wizard".

 

[Keble]

Well, Yakov Yurovsky at least was Lutheran.
Keble, who do you suspect was behind 9/11?

Those whom the 9/11 report names. The evidence against them is quote solid.

What do you make of the celebrating Israeli's following the attacks?

Nothing, really. Here is a much longer report of the "dancing Israelis" which is not exactly conclusive even as to what they did. I really cannot even raise this to the level of "suggestive"; it seems to me that it suggests a conspiracy linked to the destruction of the towers only if you are looking to confirm such a theory.

Even if he is a "white supremacist", what does that have to do with the evidence he presents concerning Elie Wiesel, the high priest of the Holocaust?

Because it's hearsay from someone who is below untrustworthy, obviously.

That form of argument is known as ad hominem. The fact that the individual in question is a white supremacist (I take your word for it) has no bearing on whether or not his research adequately disproves the claims of Elie Wiesel.

I don't think he did any research. These allegations of the "Miklos Gruner" wander from antisemite to antisemite, but their origin is obscure. There's no reference to the man in the news nor in books; I have not succeeded in finding a picture of the man. I am unwilling to take any of these people as witnesses to this man, and never mind whether I believe him.

 

[stanley123]

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbase out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/

 

[Keble]

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbage out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/

I can't read Hungarian, but since you apparently can, you could give us a translation and tell us a little about the sites that are posting these things.

 

[stanley123]

Elie Weisal gives talks at Catholic schools also. But is he who he says he is?
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/is_elie_wiesel_a_lying_weasel_or_what.htm

This actually came from another website, which I can't actually see much of at the moment because after he was banned from Wordpress he apparently had to resort to running his site on a hand-cranked IBM PC jr. or something-- at any rate, I can't get past the first page. But I really don't want to: he's a white supremacist whom I wouldn't trust to take the garbage out.

You can read the article which appeared in the Hungarian newspaper here:
http://www.haon.hu/hirek/magyarorszag/cikk/meg-mindig-kiserti-a-halaltabor/cn/haon-news-FCUWeb-20090303-0604233755
or here:

http://kuruc.info/r/6/36390/

I can't read Hungarian, but since you apparently can, you could give us a translation and tell us a little about the sites that are posting these things.

There are translations of the article on the internet, and as well, there is an online translator (which is not all that good, but serves its purpose).

 

[Keble]

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?

 

[stanley123]

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?

Not exactly, no.

 

[Keble]

The only online translators I found produced varying levels of incoherency, and I'm unwilling to take on faith a translation from a conspiracy site. I take it by this you found the article by tracing things back from one of those sites?

Not exactly, no.

If one of my children said this, I'd assume that meant "yes".