Boy Scouts reconsidering stance on gay members

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Kerdy

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That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  
 

PJ

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yeshuaisiam said:
What I meant by "But they won't" is that the man who signs up that he is "gay" will not change.
Hi yeshuaism. After my last post, an important bible passage came to mind: the one where Peter stood up before the crowd on Pentecost and said "You should repent of your sins, but you won't" and then left with the other apostles.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Kerdy said:
That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  
I suppose it's clear to the person who wants to see it as clear. Methinks, though, that what you see clearly in other peoples' posts is your reflection.
 

Kerdy

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PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  
I suppose it's clear to the person who wants to see it as clear. Methinks, though, that what you see clearly in other peoples' posts is your reflection.
Nope, although, there is two other options. One being devils advocate, the other I will refrain from posting.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  
I suppose it's clear to the person who wants to see it as clear. Methinks, though, that what you see clearly in other peoples' posts is your reflection.
Nope, although, there is two other options. One being devils advocate, the other I will refrain from posting.
Of course, you could just be blind to what I see.
 

Kerdy

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PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  
I suppose it's clear to the person who wants to see it as clear. Methinks, though, that what you see clearly in other peoples' posts is your reflection.
Nope, although, there is two other options. One being devils advocate, the other I will refrain from posting.
Of course, you could just be blind to what I see.
;D
That is basically what I was refraining from saying about other posters.
 

orthonorm

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Kerdy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Kerdy said:
That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  
I suppose it's clear to the person who wants to see it as clear. Methinks, though, that what you see clearly in other peoples' posts is your reflection.
Nope, although, there is two other options. One being devils advocate, the other I will refrain from posting.
I'll take the red option.
 

Shanghaiski

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Peter J said:
Kerdy said:
Peter J said:
yeshuaisiam said:
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.
It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?
No, this isn’t the question at all.  Not even remotely close to the question.  The question is, should be allowed openly in the BSA.  Nice diversion tactic, but it was unsuccessful. 
Sorry if you don't like it, but that is the question to ask yeshuaisiam. His point was that gay sex is "not just sinful, but abominable", according to the Old Testament. And that's a perfectly intelligent comment (and one that I made myself in my teens and early 20s). The OT does call gay sex (but not fornication) "an abomination"; but on the other hand, the OT also made gay sex (but not fornication) punishable by death, which is why I wanted to know if yesh believes that people who commit that sin should be put to death.
I remember reading somewhere, though I forget where but it seemed a scholarly source, that there is question over whether a lot of people were actually put to death for those things for which the Law prescribed being put to death. There doesn't seem to have been consistent enforcement. The story of the woman caught in adultery in John Chapter 8 seems like a mob action, whereas the Jewish leaders at the time needed Roman sanction to put Jesus to death, when they could have just stoned him. So, it doesn't appear clear. I also read the Hasmoneans ended capital punishment.
 

yeshuaisiam

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Kerdy said:
That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  

Word games really are immature and the world is vexing enough.  I do not give them credence or pay attention to them.  Also, I wasn't understanding what another poster was getting at about "but they won't".  Very interesting response Peter J, and I honestly did not think of that when typing.
 

yeshuaisiam

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Shanghaiski said:
Peter J said:
Kerdy said:
Peter J said:
yeshuaisiam said:
There are A LOT of Christians that need to read the scriptures.

This is not a subject that should be debated.

God called Men who lay with Men an ABOMINATION.
God called Women who lay with Woman an ABOMINATION.

Not just sinful, but abominable!!!

Do you want somebody who has such a distraught and messed up family, who loves their own sex, will not engage in normal relations as God created us, to be the role model for your son or sons?

Us Christians DO NOT JUDGE homosexual behavior, GOD already did.  When we call homosexual behavior an abomination, we are only repeating what God called it.

No Christian should want their sons role models / mentors / troop leaders to be homosexuals.  End of story.
It is a sin.

But I guess the question to you should be: Do you believe that people who commit that sin should be put to death?
No, this isn’t the question at all.  Not even remotely close to the question.  The question is, should be allowed openly in the BSA.  Nice diversion tactic, but it was unsuccessful. 
Sorry if you don't like it, but that is the question to ask yeshuaisiam. His point was that gay sex is "not just sinful, but abominable", according to the Old Testament. And that's a perfectly intelligent comment (and one that I made myself in my teens and early 20s). The OT does call gay sex (but not fornication) "an abomination"; but on the other hand, the OT also made gay sex (but not fornication) punishable by death, which is why I wanted to know if yesh believes that people who commit that sin should be put to death.
I remember reading somewhere, though I forget where but it seemed a scholarly source, that there is question over whether a lot of people were actually put to death for those things for which the Law prescribed being put to death. There doesn't seem to have been consistent enforcement. The story of the woman caught in adultery in John Chapter 8 seems like a mob action, whereas the Jewish leaders at the time needed Roman sanction to put Jesus to death, when they could have just stoned him. So, it doesn't appear clear. I also read the Hasmoneans ended capital punishment.
Interesting.  But I do remember a couple cities that didn't do so well....

That is interesting about the Adulterous woman.  Also creates some conflict OR further thought in John because the pharisees told Pilate that they came to him because they could not put Jesus to death.

Also the Jews in the temple in the book of John tried to stone him a couple times....  (If I remember correctly)  Obviously they had a mindset that they could...

Perhaps mob action was different... I don't know.... I mean, to be killed by a mob or government don't know if it matters much to the person getting killed.





 

Kerdy

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That person said:
ialmisry said:
Achronos said:
Well you can't say gayness without anus
Lesbians say it all the time.
So do some gay men for that matter.
Kerdy said:
That person said:
Oh do tell us the secret of your mind-reading.
No secret, no mind reading.  It is in your posts, clear as day.  
If you say so, but the reality is you just are not as complicated as you believe.
 

PJ

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yeshuaisiam said:
Also, I wasn't understanding what another poster was getting at about "but they won't".   Very interesting response Peter J, and I honestly did not think of that when typing.
Well, alright. That's better than if you said "I realized that what I was saying was completely different from the apostles' approach, but I just didn't care."  :)
 

PJ

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Jetavan said:
I wonder. Did Paul have any notion of people who are 'born' with same-sex attractions? He seems to be criticizing here, people -- heterosexual -- whose extreme lust has taken them into 'vile affections', not people whose normal state of attraction is directed towards those of the same sex.
I'm not sure. It does appear that they were at least aware that some men are (naturally) not attracted to women.
 

Papist

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Deep Roots said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?
Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.
I honestly wonder if you guys have ever spent time around a group of gay guys.
 

Aristocles

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Papist said:
Deep Roots said:
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
I agree with Peter. It is one thing for gays to advocate for equal treatment under the law, it is another thing all together for them to (a) demand that no one criticize their immoral and sinful life style, (b) demand that society throw away the meaning of marriage between a man and a woman in the name of equality, and (c) demand that private individuals and organizations accept their demand that homosexual lifestyle is normal.  Those who believe that the homosexual lifestyle is wrong have agreed to the decriminalization of homosexual conduct. Now, they are faced with a demand that they approve of homosexual conduct. That's cheeky, don't you think?
Sneaky gays.  Sneaky sneaky gays.  Always trying to feel you up when you don't wanna be felt up.
I honestly wonder if you guys have ever spent time around a group of gay guys.
You dispute Deep Roots' s comments? Maybe not "always", but often enough.
 

Romaios

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yeshuaisiam said:
Interesting.  But I do remember a couple cities that didn't do so well....

That is interesting about the Adulterous woman.  Also creates some conflict OR further thought in John because the pharisees told Pilate that they came to him because they could not put Jesus to death.

Also the Jews in the temple in the book of John tried to stone him a couple times....  (If I remember correctly)  Obviously they had a mindset that they could...

Perhaps mob action was different... I don't know.... I mean, to be killed by a mob or government don't know if it matters much to the person getting killed.
The chapter on the adulterous woman didn't originally belong to John - ancient manuscripts sometimes omit it, give it as a separate item or include it in other gospels (Luke). So there's no way it could have influenced the plot of John. If you have a close look at the place where it is inserted and then skip it, you'll see that the text makes more sense without it.

Jews would have had the right to punish religious offences against Jewish Law, without the Romans interfering. That explains Pilate's initial reaction - Our Lord had broken no Roman law, so as far as the Roman governor was concerned, there was nothing to punish him for. But then the Jewish authorities tried to present him as a danger to Roman rule in Palestine and a rival of Caesar's. If he were condemned as a rebel against Rome, they wouldn't have innocent blood on their hands, thus avoiding the potential anger of the mobs/his followers. Pilate also washed his hands, and the mob gladly accepted the fault for it all. 

So Romans would not have cared much if a Jew was stoned to death by other Jews. If he also happened to be a Roman citizen (still a rare privilege in the 1st century), only then could he appeal to be judged by Roman authorities. This is what happened when St. Paul got in trouble with the Sanhedrin.         
 
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