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Brother Nathanael

Seth84

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1) If we follow your definition I'm a monk. 
2) I did not say he was a racist.  I said he is a racialist.
3) I generally agree.  I hate threads dedicated to specific people with the purpose of discrediting them.  However, in this case, I believe it is necessary.  He acts as a representative of our Holy Orthodoxy and IMO he is doing us a great disservice.  In this case, I strongly support distancing ourselves from Br. Nathanael's invective.
 

LBK

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1) By definition he is a monk: A monk (from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, "single, solitary') is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.
Correction: Br Nathaniel has not received monastic tonsure. Monastics, both novices and tonsured, are also under the obedience of their abbot and their bishop. Yet to see evidence of this person conforming to either requirement.
 

celticfan1888

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Ionnis said:
1) If we follow your definition I'm a monk. 
2) I did not say he was a racist.  I said he is a racialist.
3) I generally agree.  I hate threads dedicated to specific people with the purpose of discrediting them.  However, in this case, I believe it is necessary.  He acts as a representative of our Holy Orthodoxy and IMO he is doing us a great disservice.  In this case, I strongly support distancing ourselves from Br. Nathanael's invective.
1) If you consider yourself as such, why can't you be?
2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?
3) Isn't that separating people in the same way "racialism" is? You are going to try and distance Orthodoxy from this man, to make it look more favourable. Why are you so concerned with that? Focus on yourself, not trying to "disprove" Nathanael.
 

celticfan1888

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LBK said:
1) By definition he is a monk: A monk (from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, "single, solitary') is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.
Correction: Br Nathaniel has not received monastic tonsure. Monastics, both novices and tonsured, are also under the obedience of their abbot and their bishop. Yet to see evidence of this person conforming to either requirement.
Look up the definition http://orthodoxwiki.org/Monasticism

You don't have to be tonsured. Do you think many of the desert ascetics (who were hermits) were tonsured? I guess you don't consider them monks either? Or is Br. Nathanael an exception because you do not like him?
 

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celticfan1888 said:
Focus on yourself, not trying to "disprove" Nathanael.
This is good advice.  Thank you.
 

Iconodule

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celticfan1888 said:
2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?
So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?
 

celticfan1888

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Iconodule said:
celticfan1888 said:
2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?
So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?
Is that what he said? If you can send me a clip of him saying that, I would appreciate it. I've personally never heard such (not calling you a liar, it just doesn't seem like the man I met).
 

Iconodule

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celticfan1888 said:
Iconodule said:
celticfan1888 said:
2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?
So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?
Is that what he said? If you can send me a clip of him saying that, I would appreciate it. I've personally never heard such (not calling you a liar, it just doesn't seem like the man I met).
I already pointed out the video to you, but here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8phYsxf4xMM
 

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To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.

If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.

As for his teachings, he's a crackpot with crackpot theories. His New World Order, grand Zionist plan, Freemasonry bull is just plain stupid. He's not a holy fool despite any attempts to appear as such.
 

celticfan1888

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Iconodule said:
celticfan1888 said:
Iconodule said:
celticfan1888 said:
2) How is he such? He hasn't promoted it?
So promoting a "White Christian political power bloc" and denouncing interracial marriage is not racialism in your book?
Is that what he said? If you can send me a clip of him saying that, I would appreciate it. I've personally never heard such (not calling you a liar, it just doesn't seem like the man I met).
I already pointed out the video to you, but here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8phYsxf4xMM
Interesting. I told him I (a Norwegian) was marrying a Puerto Rican woman, and he wished me well.

But I don't disagree with you, from what he said did make him sound like a White Supremest.
 

celticfan1888

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88Devin12 said:
To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.
Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

88Devin12 said:
If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.
Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)
 

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celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.
Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

88Devin12 said:
If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.
Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)
That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.
 

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88Devin12 said:
celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.
Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

88Devin12 said:
If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.
Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)

If you mean locol bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill.
That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.
Hilarion is First Hierarch of ROCOR.

His local bishop is Archbishop Kyrill.

How is that fishy...?
 

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celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.
Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

88Devin12 said:
If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.
Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)

If you mean locol bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill.
That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.
Hilarion is First Hierarch of ROCOR.

His local bishop is Archbishop Kyrill.

How is that fishy...?
I had asked for his Bishop. If someone were to give my Bishop I'd give my local Bishop, not the primate. If Bishop Kyrill is his local Bishop then okay. I just wonder why the heck Bishop Kyrill hasn't done anything about him yet. Then again, for all the good things about it, there are also crazy things about ROCOR.
 

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celticfan1888 said:
Iconodule said:
He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.
A white supremest Jew? lol

Boy, you crazy.
I am not going to say anything about Brother Nathanael since I don't know enough about him but there have been examples of this before.
 

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88Devin12 said:
celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.
Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

88Devin12 said:
If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.
Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)

If you mean locol bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill.
That makes absolutely no sense, it says he is from Colorado, and so his Bishop should be either Bishop Alypy of Chicago or Bishop Kyrill of San Francisco. There is definitely something fishy there.
Hilarion is First Hierarch of ROCOR.

His local bishop is Archbishop Kyrill.

How is that fishy...?
I had asked for his Bishop. If someone were to give my Bishop I'd give my local Bishop, not the primate. If Bishop Kyrill is his local Bishop then okay. I just wonder why the heck Bishop Kyrill hasn't done anything about him yet. Then again, for all the good things about it, there are also crazy things about ROCOR.
I misunderstood you.
 

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Flying back to Austin this past Lent from Chicago, where I had attended the ROCOR Chicago diocese's Lenten Pastoral Retreat, the lady I sat next to on the flight said I reminded her of a monk. She asked if I knew Br. Nathanael (she knew him, or of him, by passing him mornings in some Colorado city, as he would preach and pass out things and sing and dance). I said I did not. Knowing of his odd side, I asked the lady, who was not Orthodox, maybe not even Christian, what she thought of Br. Nathanael. I truly wanted to see what her impressions were, since she had seen him so frequently. She said she and others loved Br. Nathanael. He was cheerful and kind to everyone, he did nice things for the children, always had a kind smile and an encouraging word for every person. He made each person feel special. Nor did he ever allow brutal weather or some temporary indisposition to keep him from his "appointed rounds." As she spoke of him, her face lit up with a happy glow.

It is unfortunate to see people tell untruths about Br. Nathanael and slander him, on this forum. Let's please stick to things he actually has said, and please let's not dismiss logic and reason in doing so, even if some things he says or writes seem highly charged or produce sharp reactions.

I personally can't comprehend what in the world he is doing, but I suspend my judgment. I can confirm that he receives Holy Communion in the Russian Church Abroad.
 

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I couldn't agree more with what the lady Fr. Aidan described had said. I don't know if anyone else here has actually met Br. Nathanael, but I got a very similar impression. There is much more to him than just political and racial issues. Actually, he probably won't even bring it up in conversation unless you mention it or ask him about it. Yes, he is very passionate about those things (many of which are disagreeable), but behind it all, he is a very kind and warm man. In fact, the issues most of you know him for only came up once in discussion. The rest of the time, he seemed more interested in prayer, fasting, and assisting the other monks in their daily tasks.


Also, it is worth bring up that Br. Nathanael seemingly had no problem being at St. Anthony's, which is itself an interracial monastery. I don't buy this "Brother Nathanael is racist" nonsense.
 

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Being nice doesn't change the fact he is a babbling, conspiracy theorist idiot. I want to strangle anyone I meet who suggests 9/11 was by our own government or by the "Jews".

He cites the idiots in the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" group as supposed support. That group has only 1,600 professionals as members.

Guess how many total architects and engineers are in our nation? 110,000 licensed architects and 1.5 million engineers.

The few idiots in that group make up barely 1/10th of a percent. (.1%) Hardly a reliable number.

If you learn basic physics, even in architecture school, you learn how stupid these controlled demolition claims are.

Brother Nathanael needs to lay off the crazy juice and quit trying to be a fool for Christ and join a monastery and become a real monk.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Being nice doesn't change the fact he is a babbling, conspiracy theorist idiot. I want to strangle anyone I meet who suggests 9/11 was by our own government or by the "Jews".

He cites the idiots in the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" group as supposed support. That group has only 1,600 professionals as members.

Guess how many total architects and engineers are in our nation? 110,000 licensed architects and 1.5 million engineers.

The few idiots in that group make up barely 1/10th of a percent. (.1%) Hardly a reliable number.

If you learn basic physics, even in architecture school, you learn how stupid these controlled demolition claims are.

Brother Nathanael needs to lay off the crazy juice and quit trying to be a fool for Christ and join a monastery and become a real monk.
Someone needs to learn to love and not hate. And maybe needs a hug.

P.S. I laugh at the fact you think the US Government loves you, they have a nasty track record.  ;)

And what is a real monk to you? Considering you seem to know all.
 

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Devin, have you ever read anything from the "conspiracy idiots" or examined the reasons as to why they believe the things to do. While I hope that this doesn't distract too much from the conversation at hand, Operation Northwoods as a declassified document should at least make us question the morality of our own government.
 

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celticfan1888 said:
Why do people claim he isn't a monk?
He wasn't tonsured.

Punch said:
Yes, and the mixing of the races has had such a positive benefit here in the US. 
Genetically speaking, it is positive.

celticfan1888 said:
1) By definition he is a monk: A monk (from Greek: μοναχός, monachos, "single, solitary') is a person who practices religious asceticism, living either alone or with any number of other monks. A monk may be a person who decided to dedicate his life to serve the other living beings or to be an ascetic who voluntarily chooses to leave mainstream society and live his life in prayer and contemplation.
Do we have to follow some protestant definitions here?


celticfan1888 said:
I think we jut have a lot of converts carrying their Protestant (Zionist) baggage with them.
Physycian...
 

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Michał Kalina said:
He wasn't tonsured.
Many monks and ascetics of the early church weren't either... Being tonsured is not required (don't even attempt to argue otherwise without a Canon or an equivalent).

Michał Kalina said:
Do we have to follow some protestant definitions here?
How is my definition Protestant (considering they don't have monastics)? It is the true definition, just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.

Michał Kalina said:
Physycian...
I don't even understand that. Is that Polish, or bad typing? If you said Physician, I still don't get your point.
 

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Achronos said:
I think he menu to say "Physcian heal thyself"
I'm telling people to stop accusing Br. Nathanael and he tells ME that? Typical Kalina, starting stuff with me.

Either way, I was never a Protestant, I can't have the "baggage".
 

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I do not care what your RPG hadbooks say. In the Orthodox tradition the monk is the person who received the tonsure from an abbot (or a bishop). That means Nathanael Kapner's claims to be a monk groundless. Furthermore, he wears ryasa and pectoral cross unlawfully.

And it looks like that these are converts who are more fascinated with him so your generalization was a miss.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
I do not care what your RPG hadbooks say. In the Orthodox tradition the monk is the person who received the tonsure from an abbot (or a bishop). That means Nathanael Kapner's claims to be a monk groundless. Furthermore, he wears ryasa and pectoral cross unlawfully.

And it looks like that these are converts who are more fascinated with him so your generalization was a miss.
Excuse me, RPG? Do I look like a nerd? You must have me confused for a scrawny Belorussian-Pole.

St. Anthony the Great wasn't tonsured, neither St Simeon Stylites, as well as countless other monks. Or would your arrogance say they were not "true" monastics because your legalistic mind says they weren't "tonsured"?

The Russians love St. Seraphim, as a matter of fact.

Fact of the matter, your "you must be tonsured to be a monastic" argument is silly. Many monastics, including saints, weren't. So, Michał Kalina, come up with a better argument, or stop with that thing you do that truly annoys me.
 

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celticfan1888 said:
St. Anthony the Great wasn't tonsured, neither St Simeon Stylites, as well as countless other monks. Or would your arrogance say they were not "true" monastics because your legalistic mind says they weren't "tonsured"?
They were not members of ROCOR.

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enov_polmon.html - that's all that matters in that case.

The Russians love St. Seraphim, as a matter of fact.
St. Seraphim was tonsured.
 

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I didn't want to weigh in here, but a couple of points. The man in question may certainly love children, puppies and flowers. So do a lot of folks anywhere on this planet - whether they are monks or serial killers. I worked in Family Courts for years and rarely, if ever, ran into a parent or care giver who was found to be neglectful or abusive and who didn't love children on some level (I am excluding cases of sexual abuse here) or love their dogs and flowers etc...

What is troubling in this matter are the ideas he propagates via the internet. I find the racial views to be most disturbing. This is not an issue of 'free speech' - the government is not interfering with his right to an opinion or a voice. The Church however - in this case ROCOR - is not bound by the First Amendment (nor is any private employer contrary to popular legend) and as Iconodule properly notes, certain of his expressed opinions are contrary to the teachings of the Church. and they give the casual observer of our Holy Orthodox Faith the wrong impression of our body of teaching. They reinforce preconceptions that Orthodoxy is inherently 'anti' others in a wordly, secular sense - be they Jews or unbelievers or any other 'category.' For that reason - a most important one indeed - it baffles me that defense of his opinions can be viewed as a properly Orthodox Christian option.

I heard a great remark on ESPN sports talk radio yesterday that is relevant here. After a particularly ridiculously opinionated and angry caller, the host said that if he had one wish for his audience it would be that certain listeners would not view critical comments about another person as being what is called 'hating' in modern day American slang. He went on to complain that a frequent argument stopper is that 'you don't respect me' when the disagreement gets heated.

The same may be said of many of our discussions online. Disagreement is usually not 'hating' - it is simply disagreement in most cases. We always fall back on the overused maxim 'Hate the sin, love the sinner' and often we don't mean it. I don't 'hate' this man - I know little of him - I merely disagree with his world view and how he uses the Church in his attempts to legitimize his opinions.  Take off the cassock, ryassa and cross and express your opinion as a man - but don't wrap yourself in the protection of the Church in an effort to add weight to your opinions. After all we are admonished by the Good Shepherd to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. (Matthew 7:15)
 

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Fr.Aidan said:
It is unfortunate to see people tell untruths about Br. Nathanael and slander him, on this forum. Let's please stick to things he actually has said, and please let's not dismiss logic and reason in doing so, even if some things he says or writes seem highly charged or produce sharp reactions.
I'm not sure what you're referring to as slander or untruths. If you're referring to my pointing out that Br. Nathanael is a white nationalist, I have done so using his own words from his own public videos and postings.

So I ask you, Father, if you find the following words at all compatible with the Orthodox Christian worldview:

White Identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe.

International Jewry’s objective, intent, and aim? To destroy the one force that could oppose them: namely, a White Christian political power bloc.
For in a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-creedal society, only ONE minority with all the money rises to the top: American Jewry.
But, for the goyim, not only is interracial marriage acceptable, but advances the ADL’s agenda to destroy the last remaining power block that could potentially oppose Jewish hegemony, namely White Christianity.
Whether Nathanael is a nice guy is completely beside the point. He is publicly presenting his white supremacist views as Orthodox teaching and is doing so without any repercussions form the bishops of ROCOR. I would like to think that the bishops simply don't know how far he's gone. He needs to be stopped.
 

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celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.
Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

88Devin12 said:
If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.
Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)
A. How do you know that +Hilarion is his bishop? Any sort of evidence would be appreciated.

B. Do you believe that you have such complete knowledge of modern monastism that, if you did not hear of it, it must not be true?
 

celticfan1888

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Michał Kalina said:
They were not members of ROCOR.

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/engdocuments/enov_polmon.html - that's all that matters in that case.
What's your point?

Michał Kalina said:
The Russians love St. Seraphim, as a matter of fact.
St. Seraphim was tonsured.
I am aware, as is everyone...
 

celticfan1888

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
celticfan1888 said:
88Devin12 said:
To be a monk in our church, you must be beyond a novice. There was a time when this wasn't the case, but we are beyond that time in our history, you can't apply the rule of the desert fathers to modern novices.
Says...who? I never heard about that change in an EC.

88Devin12 said:
If Brother Nathanael is a monk, then tell me, who is his spiritual father? Who is his abbot? And most importantly, if Brother Nathanael is Orthodox, who is his Bishop? He needs to be under the obedience of a Bishop, otherwise he most certainly is not Orthodox.
Metropolitan Hilarion (ROCOR)
A. How do you know that +Hilarion is his bishop? Any sort of evidence would be appreciated.

B. Do you believe that you have such complete knowledge of modern monastism that, if you did not hear of it, it must not be true?
I said his local bishop, it is Archbishop Kyrill. I recommend reading the entirety of my posts before you intercede. And yes, I know for a fact he is.

I never said I had complete knowledge of monasticism, I was just saying what the early church practiced. All I asked for was proof, I never called anyone a liar... I'm pretty sure everyone here is claiming to know just as much, if not more, about monasticism than I, but you pick me because you have a track record with me, mature.

So you are 0-2 on accusations.
 

Punch

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Very true.  However, having known REAL white supremacists, Brother Nathaneal's remarks are really rather calm.  The boys at Stormfront do not particularly like him, and they know a few things about white supremacists.

Ansgar said:
celticfan1888 said:
Iconodule said:
He's a white supremacist and I have a very low opinion of ROCA- Agafangel for allowing him to publicly rave without any repercussions.
A white supremest Jew? lol

Boy, you crazy.
I am not going to say anything about Brother Nathanael since I don't know enough about him but there have been examples of this before.
 

88Devin12

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celtic, the thing is, we don't practice exactly as the early church did. We've evolved beyond that for various reasons.

St. Anthony and the Desert Fathers practiced only one kind of asceticism. Eventually this kind was superseded by the model throughout the rest of the Eastern Empire. The lone monk could no longer exist and had to at least regularly report to his monastery and to his abbot.

What you must realize also, is that Br. Nathanael is not even practicing the ancient desert model. If he were, we wouldn't ever see him, ever. The desert model wasn't go on your own and go into the very midst of the cities calling attention to yourself on the streets, and in his case, also on the internet. Instead, the desert model was going off into caves and into the wilderness to practice your asceticism. No one ever saw you, and you never saw anyone except for maybe fellow monastics. Nearly your entire life was spent in prayer and reflection.

Also, as mentioned before, Br. Nathanael also wrongly wears a pectoral cross. This is only permitted for ordained clergy who are Priests or higher.

It also seems, by a lot of his actions, that he is trying to play the role of holy fool. The model of holy fool is not a model which purposely calls attention to yourself. It isn't about being a fool for the sake of silliness. The holy fool is a person who is a person who has attained high levels of theosis. Yet his holiness is somewhat masked by various actions which always manifest God, his glory and his will to other humans. The holy fool is also known by almost everyone to be a holy, sane and pious person. He only feigns insanity hide his own holiness.

Br. Nathanael is simply acting silly on a street corner. We can also presume that Br. Nathanael is using his street evangelism to tell more people about the grand conspiracy of the Jewish Zionists and the New World Order. This is not the model of a holy fool.

_________________________________

In the Eastern Orthodox Church today, our practices have evolved from the early models. There have been too many monastics abusing their isolation and other circumstances which have almost abolished the model of the desert.

There was a monk who sought to create a male monastery near my home parish. It didn't come to fruition because the man, although an Orthodox monk, didn't practice asceticism as required by our church. He traveled around the nation never staying in one place and not practicing normal asceticism.

Also at the same time, we can argue that most of our Bishops are not practicing monasticism. That is the simple truth.

_________________________________

As for his supposed "White supremacism", I don't think that is the case. Br. Nathanael isn't a white supremacist, but he is still a dolt when it comes to conspiracy theories. Yes, the Jews want a Jewish nation and they have one. However, there is not some grand conspiracy of Zionists, Freemasons, Illuminati or others who are trying to control the world and create a New World Order.

One has to wonder how much weight Br. Nathanael puts on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Sadly, too many in the MP and ROCOR still put weight on this document, which, as it has been proven, is a false, forged document. It's a disgrace to all Orthodox Christians that some Orthodox still believe it is authentic and true.

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.

9/11 a Zionist conspiracy and a Mossad operation? Are you kidding me?
 

podkarpatska

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88Devin12 said:
celtic, the thing is, we don't practice exactly as the early church did. We've evolved beyond that for various reasons.

St. Anthony and the Desert Fathers practiced only one kind of asceticism. Eventually this kind was superseded by the model throughout the rest of the Eastern Empire. The lone monk could no longer exist and had to at least regularly report to his monastery and to his abbot.

What you must realize also, is that Br. Nathanael is not even practicing the ancient desert model. If he were, we wouldn't ever see him, ever. The desert model wasn't go on your own and go into the very midst of the cities calling attention to yourself on the streets, and in his case, also on the internet. Instead, the desert model was going off into caves and into the wilderness to practice your asceticism. No one ever saw you, and you never saw anyone except for maybe fellow monastics. Nearly your entire life was spent in prayer and reflection.

Also, as mentioned before, Br. Nathanael also wrongly wears a pectoral cross. This is only permitted for ordained clergy who are Priests or higher.

It also seems, by a lot of his actions, that he is trying to play the role of holy fool. The model of holy fool is not a model which purposely calls attention to yourself. It isn't about being a fool for the sake of silliness. The holy fool is a person who is a person who has attained high levels of theosis. Yet his holiness is somewhat masked by various actions which always manifest God, his glory and his will to other humans. The holy fool is also known by almost everyone to be a holy, sane and pious person. He only feigns insanity hide his own holiness.

Br. Nathanael is simply acting silly on a street corner. We can also presume that Br. Nathanael is using his street evangelism to tell more people about the grand conspiracy of the Jewish Zionists and the New World Order. This is not the model of a holy fool.

_________________________________

In the Eastern Orthodox Church today, our practices have evolved from the early models. There have been too many monastics abusing their isolation and other circumstances which have almost abolished the model of the desert.

There was a monk who sought to create a male monastery near my home parish. It didn't come to fruition because the man, although an Orthodox monk, didn't practice asceticism as required by our church. He traveled around the nation never staying in one place and not practicing normal asceticism.

Also at the same time, we can argue that most of our Bishops are not practicing monasticism. That is the simple truth.

_________________________________

As for his supposed "White supremacism", I don't think that is the case. Br. Nathanael isn't a white supremacist, but he is still a dolt when it comes to conspiracy theories. Yes, the Jews want a Jewish nation and they have one. However, there is not some grand conspiracy of Zionists, Freemasons, Illuminati or others who are trying to control the world and create a New World Order.

One has to wonder how much weight Br. Nathanael puts on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Sadly, too many in the MP and ROCOR still put weight on this document, which, as it has been proven, is a false, forged document. It's a disgrace to all Orthodox Christians that some Orthodox still believe it is authentic and true.

The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.

9/11 a Zionist conspiracy and a Mossad operation? Are you kidding me?
+1
 

Fr.Aidan

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Br. Nathanael continues to be called a white supremacist, although no one has been able to find a single sentence of his, which expresses white supremacy. I find that to be very telling. In fact, it says more about the people bandying that term about, than it says about Br. Nathanael.

The logical pitfalls of Political Correctness may be seen in the reactions some people have to this idea of a White Christian Political Power Bloc. If an African Christian were calling for an African Christian Political Power Bloc to help protect against the powers of Animist rulers or even Muslim Brotherhoods, none of us would blink an eye. Same if we heard about some call for a League of Arab Christians to protect against the force of Muslim Brotherhoods or despotic secular regimes. It's quite the double standard.

If anyone is unaware that there is a cabal of ultra-powerful bankers, mostly or seminally Jewish, who are very far along in their plans to create a despotic and cruel One World Government, something abundantly documented and easily provable, then that person really needs to get out of the house a little more.

I think the Protocols are fake, but the Mishnah and Talmud contain enough horrible things to eliminate any need to fabricate anything.

With love for all Jewish people and all debaters on this forum, as well as all Orthodox Christians, and all Muslims, and people of any and all ethnic groups ("races" don't really exist in any ultimately measurable form, so I won't include "races" here). 
 

88Devin12

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Fr.Aidan said:
If anyone is unaware that there is a cabal of ultra-powerful bankers, mostly or seminally Jewish, who are very far along in their plans to create a despotic and cruel One World Government, something abundantly documented and easily provable, then that person really needs to get out of the house a little more.

I think the Protocols are fake, but the Mishnah and Talmud contain enough horrible things to eliminate any need to fabricate anything.  
You're insane if you truly believe they want a one-world government. Which by the way, is something the Bible says nothing about, and isn't connected to the Anti-Christ.

If it is abundantly documented and provable, then prove it.

If people in ROCOR actually believe this bunk, then I don't know what to say, they are crazier than I thought. Talk about Hyperdox Herman.
 

Ansgar

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If anyone is unaware that there is a cabal of ultra-powerful bankers, mostly or seminally Jewish, who are very far along in their plans to create a despotic and cruel One World Government,
Could you please provide any information about this?

I have really never understood this theory. There is a perfectly good explanation as to why many jews in the past and today are working as bankers.
 

Ioannis Climacus

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88Devin12 said:
The Holocaust wasn't a grand Jewish conspiracy. Millions of Jews did die (though it probably wasn't the 6 million oft quoted) and were actively exterminated by Hitler and the Nazis. This is an undeniable fact in this day and age. If you deny it, you aren't a white supremacist, but you are anti-semetic. We can be anti-Judaism and anti-Zionism without being anti-semetic. Br. Nathanael takes it way too far.
Seeing as the Holocaust accounts record that various other groups were targeted, your logic would imply that a "denier" is likewise anti-Slav, anti-Gay, anti-Mason, anti-Roma, anti-Communist, anti-Jehovah's Witness, anti-Catholic, etc. Whatever happened in those camps (and there are very problematic evidence hurdles out there for those who push the official story), it was not a uniquely Jewish experience. Even if it was, however, it would not follow that a "denier" would be anti-Semite. Any more than denying the moon landing makes one anti-American or denying the Robin Hood accounts makes one anti-English.

But on the topic of Br. Nathanael, is he even a "denier"? I don't really keep up with him anymore, but last I remember, he was in the camp that suggested that Zionists perpetuated it to jump start a much larger Zionist movement.
 
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