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Brother Nathanael

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Racialism is racism. The attempt to distinguish the two is just white nationalist spin, like the KKK's attempt to brand itself a "white rights organization."

Here are Nathanael's words again (emphases mine):

When the highly acclaimed author and historian Hillaire Belloc exclaimed, “Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe!” he was simply expressing the fact that it was Christianity that made Europe and the worldwide civilization it produced and NOT the pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.

And this Christian Faith — if one merely takes a tour of the European landscape with its countless Cathedrals, Monasteries and Churches from which living people (yes, racially white) — built that very Western Civilization that White Nationalists bemoan the decline of.

You see, a kind of manifest destiny was conferred upon White Europeans whose lineage can be traced to the Biblical figure of Japheth – Noah’s third son and progenitor of the peoples of Europe.

St Justin Martyr of the 2nd Century in his “Dialogue with Trypho the Jew” brought to light the mystery of Noah’s Old Testament prophecy that God would enlarge the tents of Japheth under whose roof Noah’s other two sons – Shem, (father of the Semitic people which included the Hebrews), and Ham, (father of the black race) – would dwell, in the new and superseding era of the Christian Church.

White Identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe.

International Jewry’s objective, intent, and aim? To destroy the one force that could oppose them: namely, a White Christian political power bloc.
Several things are clear here:

Nathanael believes that European ("white") civilization and Christianity are synonymous (he approvingly quotes Belloc: "Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe").

The "white race" was given a special mission to build a Christian civilization, apart from other races and above them.

Only a white Christian power bloc (not a Hispanic one, not a black one) is capable of opposing "international Jewry". This means the supremacy of white people as defenders of Christendom.

In decrying "the nightmare of multiracialism", Nathanael solidifies his presentation of Christianity as something primarily for white people. The real Church has always been multiracial from its very beginnings. In the Church, people of different "races" share something much more intimate than land or political power- they share a Chalice and a Body.

Nathanael is therefore a heretic for denying the Catholic character of the Church.

And if there is any doubt still that he is a racist, it can only exist in the minds of confused or willfully deluded people whose own latent sympathy for white nationalism blinds them.
 

celticfan1888

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podkarpatska said:
celticfan1888 said:
podkarpatska said:
Finally, we have documentary evidence from the first hand accounts of tens of thousands of Allied troops who liberated the camps - American, British, French, Russian and other allied soldiers - Christians, Jews, atheists, communists, royalists, whites, blacks, Asian-Americans - you name it.... If you believe it all to be a conspiracy - well so be it - but you and those who think like you - delude yourselves and deny that which is real.
podkarpatska said:
Be on the wrong side of history and be on the side of ignorance and fantasy. It's a free country - but beware of the burdens of history - for those who forget its lessons are sure to repeat its mistakes.
If you aren't going to read my post, don't reply.

You really ticked me off by saying that. You are the reason internet debates turn into screaming. You built a strawman.
I, and most other Orthodox Christians including our beloved Bishops and priests that I have been honored to know over my lifetime, are appalled by the continued nonsense that many spew in the name of our Church.

You, and the other defenders of 'Brother'  Kepner, built the strawman in defense of his hate filled nonsense. Such nonsense defiles the true Orthodox heroes of the era from St. Gorazd of Prague to St. Alexander of Orenburg and little noted heroes such as the Orthodox priest and faithful of the tiny village of Vilage (now  known as Svetlice) in eastern Slovakia.

Yes, I am 'book learned' and some in modern America, such makes one's arguments apparently less important than those formed by bias and opinion.  And Punch, by the way, my late father in law was a decorated jump Sgt. of the 82nd airborne with a Silver Star from the Bulge and three campaign jumps during the war. He provided me with just one of many first hand narratives with which I am familiar.

Defending the truth does NOT equate to defending the policies of the Zionist state of Israel and its 'special relationship' with the political leaders of this country and many in western Europe. I am not a defender of Zionism or Israel and I fully believe that American policy, as well as that of western Europe, since the war has been motivated by the guilt of not dealing with the 'Jewish' question over the centuries and allowing it slide into the abyss into which the Germans pushed it.  I would suggest you write your OCA bishop with your concerns about these issues, being as bold in your assertions as you are online and see what sort of response you might get.
No, you accused me of being a holocaust denier (which I am not), and I am insulted by such. That is your strawman. I demand an apology because I am scandalized you call me that. I've never even said anything implying I was.

Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.
 

Ioannis Climacus

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Iconodule said:
Racialism is racism. The attempt to distinguish the two is just white nationalist spin, like the KKK's attempt to brand itself a "white rights organization."

Here are Nathanael's words again (emphases mine):

When the highly acclaimed author and historian Hillaire Belloc exclaimed, “Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe!” he was simply expressing the fact that it was Christianity that made Europe and the worldwide civilization it produced and NOT the pagan philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle.

And this Christian Faith — if one merely takes a tour of the European landscape with its countless Cathedrals, Monasteries and Churches from which living people (yes, racially white) — built that very Western Civilization that White Nationalists bemoan the decline of.

You see, a kind of manifest destiny was conferred upon White Europeans whose lineage can be traced to the Biblical figure of Japheth – Noah’s third son and progenitor of the peoples of Europe.

St Justin Martyr of the 2nd Century in his “Dialogue with Trypho the Jew” brought to light the mystery of Noah’s Old Testament prophecy that God would enlarge the tents of Japheth under whose roof Noah’s other two sons – Shem, (father of the Semitic people which included the Hebrews), and Ham, (father of the black race) – would dwell, in the new and superseding era of the Christian Church.

White Identity is indeed a necessary component in resisting the nightmare of multi-racialism that the Jewish agenda brought to America and throughout Europe.

International Jewry’s objective, intent, and aim? To destroy the one force that could oppose them: namely, a White Christian political power bloc.
Several things are clear here:

Nathanael believes that European ("white") civilization and Christianity are synonymous (he approvingly quotes Belloc: "Europe is the Church and the Church is Europe").

The "white race" was given a special mission to build a Christian civilization, apart from other races and above them.
You are still putting words in Br. Nathanael's mouth. Yes, he believes the white race has a special role to play in defending Christianity. He even believes this was ordained by God. This, however, is not enough to make him into a supremacist. Were it so, it would be equally logical to suggest that the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament were [Hebrew] supremacists (seeing as Israel was, at the time, defined primarily by lineage)

Iconodule said:
In decrying "the nightmare of multiracialism", Nathanael solidifies his presentation of Christianity as something primarily for white people. The real Church has always been multiracial from its very beginnings. In the Church, people of different "races" share something much more intimate than land or political power- they share a Chalice and a Body.

Nathanael is therefore a heretic for denying the Catholic character of the Church.
No, not once does Br. Nathanael present the Church in such a manner. He has never advocated racial exclusiveness. While disagreeable, this can be likened to the belief of certain Russians and Greeks that their respective nations were chosen by God for a special purpose.
 

Iconodule

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Ioannis Climacus said:
Yes, he believes the white race has a special role to play in defending Christianity. He even believes this was ordained by God. This, however, is not enough to make him into a supremacist.
He believes the white race not only has a special role, but that only the white race is capable of forming the Christian bulwark against the Jews. Yes, that is a white supremacist position.

Were it so, it would be equally logical to suggest that the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament were [Hebrew] supremacists (seeing as Israel was, at the time, defined primarily by lineage)
The Israelites were in fact God's chosen people. There are no chosen people now, apart from the whole Church.

No, not once does Br. Nathanael present the Church in such a manner. He has never advocated racial exclusiveness. While disagreeable, this can be likened to the belief of certain Russians and Greeks that their respective nations were chosen by God for a special purpose.
You are willfully ignoring what is right in front of you. Nathanael time and again rails against "the nightmare of multiracialism" and interracial marriage. In other words, he is in favor of racial exclusivism.

One can believe that certain nations have a special mission without tying that mission to a particular racial identity or condemning those who intermarry from that nation.

Those who oppose a multiracial society oppose the Church. Those who revile interracial marriage revile God's saints.

 

88Devin12

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John, do you agree with Br Nathanael or are you just debating about his views?
 

Ioannis Climacus

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Iconodule said:
He believes the white race not only has a special role, but that only the white race is capable of forming the Christian bulwark against the Jews. Yes, that is a white supremacist position.
No, its not a white supremacist position. You could say that the vast majority of people who hold such a view are indeed white supremacists, but there is no logical ground to exclusively connect the two. For example, only males may be priests. This is not sexism, but rather an acknowledgement of a role that only men may play. This can indeed be likened to Br. Nathanael's views on race.

Iconodule said:
You are willfully ignoring what is right in front of you. Nathanael time and again rails against "the nightmare of multiracialism" and interracial marriage. In other words, he is in favor of racial exclusivism.
You took my use of "racial exclusiveness" out of context. I was specifically referencing the Church, of which Br. Nathanael has never advocated as such (which is the only way that his position could slightly be construed as 'heretical'). It still does not follow, however, that anti-multiracialism is in of it self racist. As a trend, you could say that most anti-multiracialist do carry racist sentiment, but this is not always the case (as seen with both Br. Nathanael and Spengler). The problem, Iconodule, is that you are only seeing the issues in black and white. There are a great number of positions that people have that do not fall into one of two extremes (namely multiracialism and racial supremacism).

88Devin12 said:
John, do you agree with Br Nathanael or are you just debating about his views?
On some things, I agree with Br. Nathanael (mostly anti-Zionism), on others, I disagree, and on a great many, I am agnostic. Now, as far as racial theories go, I am in agreement with neither Br. Nathanael nor Spengler. I see race as a neutral factor, so I have no objections to interracial marriage or multiracialism. I do, however, have objections to both false allegations against Br. Nathanael (namely his supposed racism) and to ideological newspeak (i.e. the tendency to quantify all ideas into one of two diametrically opposed camps).
 

Punch

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celticfan1888 said:
Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.
I don't think that he can read.
 

celticfan1888

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Punch said:
celticfan1888 said:
Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.
I don't think that he can read.
I hope that is so, otherwise he's just a tad rude huh?  :laugh:
 

Second Chance

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celticfan1888 said:
Punch said:
celticfan1888 said:
Fact of the matter is, you didn't read my posts and reply to any of my points. You just falsely called me a "conspiracy theorist" and "holocaust denier" and acted like that somehow proves your point. It doesn't, any whiney teenager can accomplish what you did by your method. Making up false accusations to try to win a debate? Psh, grow up.
I don't think that he can read.
I hope that is so, otherwise he's just a tad rude huh?  :laugh:
Many folks here have been quite rude and emotional, coming close to ad hominem usage. I am locking this as I consult with the moderator team on the ad hominem issue. Second Chance
 

Second Chance

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This thread is now unlocked. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. Thanks, Carl Kraeff
 

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Boy oh boy! I shouldn't have read some of the comments posted here! ...my head is now hurting!

Racism is the last thing I want read about on any Orthodox Christian sites. :-[
 

orthonorm

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Ergib said:
Boy oh boy! I shouldn't have read some of the comments posted here! ...my head is now hurting!

Racism is the last thing I want read about on any Orthodox Christian sites. :-[
Good luck.

Racism, Nationalism, and Ethnicism (polysemy intentional) run amok.
 

celticfan1888

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Ergib said:
Boy oh boy! I shouldn't have read some of the comments posted here! ...my head is now hurting!

Racism is the last thing I want read about on any Orthodox Christian sites. :-[
Scandinavians are Gods chosen people!

JK

Just ignore it, it is everywhere. :laugh:
 
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