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C of E Approves Women "Bishops" (link)

ialmisry

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theistgal said:
No, Barbara Harris was ordained Bishop in the US Episcopal Church in 1989, and other women have been ordained Bishops in her wake; however, the story today is that not just the U.S. Episcopal Church, but the entire Church of England worldwide, has voted in favor of women bishops.
In for a penny, in for a pound.  If you maintain communion with a single church that does ordains women, you are all the same, no matter how "conservative" you are.  My question: with someone like "bishop" Spong, women bishops are their line in the sand?

I'm not sure the male hierarchy is dogma, but I would have to see a better argument for priestesses than I have thereto seen.
 

ialmisry

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greekischristian said:
They've been threatening to leave the CoE for over a quarter century now and still insist on sticking around. I'm sure every sensible memeber of the CoE is thinking to themselves 'when are these nutcases going to make good on their promises and actually leave the rest of us alone?'
I agree.

yes, I think that's scary too.
 

ialmisry

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lubeltri said:
C of E bishop will lead Anglicans to Rome

Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 04:30 PM GMT [General]

The Bishop of Ebbsfleet, the Rt Rev Andrew Burnham, is to lead his fellow Anglo-Catholics from the Church of England into the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic Herald will reveal this week.

Bishop Burnham, one of two "flying bishops" in the province of Canterbury, has made a statement asking Pope Benedict XVI and the English Catholic bishops for "magnanimous gestures" that will allow traditionalists to become Catholics en masse.

He is confident that this will happen, following talks in Rome with Cardinal Levada, head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Cardinal Kasper, the Vatican's head of ecumenism. He was accompanied on his visit by the Rt Rev Keith Newton, Bishop of Richborough, the other Canterbury "flying bishop", who is expected to follow his example.

Bishop Burnham hopes that Rome will offer special arrangements whereby former Anglicans can stay worshipping in parishes under the guidance of a Catholic bishop. Most of these parishes already use the Roman liturgy, but there may be provision for Anglican prayers if churches request it.

Anglican priests who are already married will not be barred from ordination as priests, though Bishop Burnham would not be able to continue in episcopal orders, as he is married and there is an absolute bar on married bishops in the Roman and Orthodox Churches.

In his statement, Bishop Burnham explains why he is rejecting the code of practice offered to traditionalists by the General Synod last night. "How could we trust a code of practice to deliver a workable ecclesiology if every suggestion we have made for our inclusion has been turned down flat?" he asks.

"How could we trust a code of practice when those who are offering it include those who have done most to undermine and seek to revoke the code of practice in force for these last 14 years? ...

"What we must humbly ask for now is for magnanimous gestures from our Catholic friends, especially from the Holy Father, who well understands our longing for unity, and from the hierarchy of England and Wales. Most of all we ask for ways that allow us to bring our folk with us."


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/damian_thompson/blog/2008/07/08/c_of_e_bishop_will_lead_anglicans_to_rome

--------

I wonder how the meetings between these CofE clerics and Rome will relate to the continuing (and secret) meetings between the Traditional Anglican Communion (who have petitioned Rome to cross the Tiber) and the Holy See. I would guess some arrangement (pastoral provision for married priests, concessions to Anglican liturgical traditions) would include both groups.
Another missed opportunity for the Western Rite.
 

ialmisry

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Maksim said:
I saw a post on another forum suggesting that the remaining Anglo-Catholics could simply close their eyes to "women priests" and go about their business.  They viewed it as a mistake, but one which might eventually be corrected.  Women in the episcopacy, on the other hand, raises questions for them about the continued validity of the Anglican episcopacy itself.

I imagine that there will be at least some Anglicans looking into Orthodoxy as a result of this, so perhaps some good will come of it in the end.
With all the nonsense that goes on in the Anglican spectrum (communion I think is too strong a word), women are the last straw?
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
With all the nonsense that goes on in the Anglican spectrum (communion I think is too strong a word)
The Anglican Communion is what they call themselves, they are in Communion with each other, and that is what you will call them on this forum- for the same reason that we do not allow people to refer to Roman Catholics as "Papists" on this forum or Eastern and Oriental Rite Catholics as "Uniates".
 

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ozgeorge said:
The Anglican Communion is what they call themselves, they are in Communion with each other, and that is what you will call them on this forum- for the same reason that we do not allow people to refer to Roman Catholics as "Papists" on this forum or Eastern and Oriental Rite Catholics as "Uniates".
^^ <deafening applause>
 

ialmisry

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ozgeorge said:
The Anglican Communion is what they call themselves, they are in Communion with each other, and that is what you will call them on this forum- for the same reason that we do not allow people to refer to Roman Catholics as "Papists" on this forum or Eastern and Oriental Rite Catholics as "Uniates".
Anglo-Catholic, Episcopalian, Continuum, etc. what they call themselves is not as unified as as you would seem to indicate.  Communion is appropriate inasmuch as the Anglicans/Episcopalians I've known who are Orthodox in everything but name, I cannot allow to communion/commune with as they commune, officially at least, with those who are neo-pagan if not atheist.  Their open communion closes our communion to them.
 

ozgeorge

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ialmisry said:
Anglo-Catholic, Episcopalian, Continuum, etc. what they call themselves is not as unified as as you would seem to indicate.  Communion is appropriate inasmuch as the Anglicans/Episcopalians I've known who are Orthodox in everything but name, I cannot allow to communion/commune with as they commune, officially at least, with those who are neo-pagan if not atheist.  Their open communion closes our communion to them.
??? So?
The term "The Anglican Communion" refers to the Anglican/Episcopalian Churches throughout the world which are in Communion with each other through the four "Instruments of Communion" (the Archbishops of Canterbury, The Lambeth Conference, Primates Meetings and the Anglican Consultative Council ). It has nothing to do with being in Communion with us, the Lutherans or the Hare Krishnas.
 

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ozgeorge said:
The Anglican Communion is what they call themselves, they are in Communion with each other, and that is what you will call them on this forum- for the same reason that we do not allow people to refer to Roman Catholics as "Papists" on this forum or Eastern and Oriental Rite Catholics as "Uniates".
Thank you.  :)

Ebor
 

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LBK said:
buzuxi and Peter, there are clear and serious constitutional problems with either the Archbishop of Canterbury or the heir to the British throne embracing Orthodoxy; the small matter of the Church of England being the established faith of the British Crown and State, and the reigning monarch being the Supreme Governor of the Church of England. (Blame Henry VIII for this, folks.)

Given a choice between Dr Rowan Williams or Prince Charles converting, I'd bet Charlie would get there first, even if he had to give up the right to the throne to do so (parallels with his great-uncle Edward VIII). I am no apologist for the British royal family, but at least Charles did have a modicum of Orthodoxy in his upbringing through his paternal Russian Orthodox grandmother, whom he was very close to, and, less directly, through his father, Prince Philip.

You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.  As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..
 

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buzuxi said:
He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.   As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are...
???
 

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buzuxi said:
He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things". 
That's a book I'd like to see ....
 

PeterTheAleut

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buzuxi said:
You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.   As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..
So, will it be your face I see on the throne when I am judged at the end of all things?
 

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buzuxi said:
You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it.
I ask you again. How do you know what the Archbishop believes about EO?  What supporting evidence, what quotes can you give here to back up your opinion of a man whom I suspect you have never met personally.  Repeating a statement does not make it true.  Without something to back up your accusation, you are uttering calumny against the Archbishop.

He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things". 
Have you read this book?

The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness. 
???  Who is "they"?  Do you have any names or other information that can be looked at that you can give to support this assertion please?  

 As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..
Sigh.  How do you know what The Right Reverend Rowan Willians knows or believes beyond what he says or writes or does?  

Can you give any proof?

Ebor
 

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buzuxi said:
You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false. He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's and orthodox recognition of their orders by Metaxakis was something they considered to validate them more than their own witness.   As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are..
I agree with Ebor. buzuxi may I ask what makes you righteous enough to judge any man (especially an archbishop someone very important in the hierarchy)? And also don't reply back with "he is not in my hierarchy" malarky because the fact is whether you like it or not he is an archbishop presiding as the center of spiritual unity for the Anglican communion.
 

Ebor

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LBK said:
That's a book I'd like to see ....
It is easy enough to find and the Archbishop has in fact written two books on icons:
The Dwelling of the Light: Praying With Icons of Christ
and
Ponder These Things: Praying With Icons of the Virgin

They might be found through inter-library loan and used copies are also readily available via Advance Book Exchange www.abe.com or Bookfinder.com or on Ebay among other places.

Ebor
 

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buzuxi said:
You are correct, but of course as a clergy member the bishop of Canterbury should go beyond politics and put his soul first. He knows full well that his confession is false.
You do realize that the King/Queen of England is the "Defender of the Anglican Faith" and essentially outranks the Archbishop of Canterbury (OTOH, the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't serve at the mercy of the reigning monarch).  AFAIK, Queen Elizabeth II has had very little comment on the topic at hand.  ???

buzuxi said:
He knows that Orthodoxy is the way but refuses to accept it. He even wrote a book on Orthodox Iconography with a forward by Bishop Kallistos Ware called "Ponder These Things".  The Anglicans had extensive talks with the Orthodox in the 1920's ....
As long as British Law requires a non-Anglican Monarch to convert to Anglicanism, the status quo will remain for a long, long time.

buzuxi said:
As far as im concerned he is an agent of anti-christ for not steering his flock towards Orthodoxy when he knows its more beneficial for their souls than where they presently are...
[tangent]
I attended a Day Care in an Episcopal Cathedral (I don't know how my father found this place - it's catty corner to Johns Hopkins University) - got kicked out after a week because I refused to take Communion and I wouldn't take naps.  Maybe I was just being a bad 3 year old.  ;)

Episcopal Cathedral of the Incarnation Website
[/tangent]
 

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Maksim said:
I imagine that there will be at least some Anglicans looking into Orthodoxy as a result of this, so perhaps some good will come of it in the end.
Lets us pray for this.
 

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Maksim said:
validity of the Anglican episcopacy
Can this be defined?

Validity for me means apostolic succession and adherence thereto.

I have not the slightest reason to think that the Anglicans have such nor care to.

The anglican church is a home made church built due to a myriad of local strife and political/royal entrigues of the English.

Only Christ can judge who is with or without salvation. But we can say that the true church is missing her beloved children who are still languishing in the world in all manners of doctrine and ways of worship and beliefs....all of whom are claiming they have Gods grace and hand upon them.

I hope so.

Women bishops are way out of line with the Holy Church and Holy eastern tradition in general.

When I say "eastern" I mean 'the east'; Jerusalem etc. This move is more closer to the western mindset and traditions of Godesses and so on. Not that that's bad. It just ain't Christian.

Women walking as men in Gods house?

God is not into womens lib. He put men, women and children in the proper place. He is a God of order not chaos. Liberalism is contrary to any kind of order and is chaotic in effect and as such is Godless.

Sadly; that seems to work in our society today and in our homes. (not mine of course). And now it is looking for space in Gods house.

WE did not take charge of our homes and society as God requires men to do and now we will have to all answer to God for failing to keep charge of His house.

Adam failed God in this way. So it seems we are set to do this yet again. satan is a powerful occuser.

The proof of Christ second advent and the need for it is glaringly obvious.

 

greekischristian

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Amdetsion said:
Can this be defined?

Validity for me means apostolic succession and adherence thereto.

I have not the slightest reason to think that the Anglicans have such nor care to.
In general, it is more useful to allow each religion to define their own terms and dogmas, rather than dictating to them what they mean. I am sure that the CoE is no more concerned about your definition of 'validity' than you are concerned with the Dalai Lama's definition of 'holiness'.
 

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greekischristian said:
In general, it is more useful to allow each religion to define their own terms and dogmas, rather than dictating to them what they mean. I am sure that the CoE is no more concerned about your definition of 'validity' than you are concerned with the Dalai Lama's definition of 'holiness'.
I have absolutely no concern for the dalai lama's ideas.

We believe in one faith, one love, one baptism, one God.

Christ commanded His true beleivers to preach His gosple to all the world and whoever do not hear US we are to shake the dust off our shoes as a testamony against them; not climb in some liberal bed with those who hate the true word of Christ and the virtue of His Holy undividable Church.

This is 'useful' for the faith in Christ. But this leaves NO room for entertaining; particularly other peoples dogmas and ideas.

 

ozgeorge

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This is no longer about the original news item, but about people's opinions of the Anglican Church, so I'm moving it to the Orthodox-Protestant Discussion forum.
 

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Amdetsion said:
Can this be defined?

Validity for me means apostolic succession and adherence thereto.

I have not the slightest reason to think that the Anglicans have such nor care to.

The anglican church is a home made church built due to a myriad of local strife and political/royal entrigues of the English.

Only Christ can judge who is with or without salvation. But we can say that the true church is missing her beloved children who are still languishing in the world in all manners of doctrine and ways of worship and beliefs....all of whom are claiming they have Gods grace and hand upon them.

I hope so.

Women bishops are way out of line with the Holy Church and Holy eastern tradition in general.

When I say "eastern" I mean 'the east'; Jerusalem etc. This move is more closer to the western mindset and traditions of Godesses and so on. Not that that's bad. It just ain't Christian.

Women walking as men in Gods house?

God is not into womens lib. He put men, women and children in the proper place. He is a God of order not chaos. Liberalism is contrary to any kind of order and is chaotic in effect and as such is Godless.

Sadly; that seems to work in our society today and in our homes. (not mine of course). And now it is looking for space in Gods house.

WE did not take charge of our homes and society as God requires men to do and now we will have to all answer to God for failing to keep charge of His house.

Adam failed God in this way. So it seems we are set to do this yet again. satan is a powerful occuser.

The proof of Christ second advent and the need for it is glaringly obvious.
<sigh>
 

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Amdetsion said:
But this leaves NO room for entertaining; particularly other peoples dogmas and ideas.
The Eastern Orthodox church would appear to disagree with you. Knowing other people's dogmas and ideas (honestly knowing them for the sake of dialogue and for the sake of the salvation of us all; not judging them) is just as relevant today as it was when the Church was young.
From Fr Thomas Hopko, http://www.oca.org/occhapter.asp?sid=2&id=1

At this point it must be mentioned that although God's self-revelation in history through the chosen people of Israel--the revelation which culminates in the coming of Christ the Messiah--is of primary importance, it is also the doctrine of the Christian Church that all genuine strivings of men after the truth are fulfilled in Christ. Every genuine insight into the meaning of life finds its perfection in the Christian Gospel. Thus, the holy fathers of the Church taught that the yearnings of pagan religions and the wisdom of many philosophers are also capable of serving to prepare men for the doctrines of Jesus and are indeed valid and genuine ways to the one Truth of God.

In this way Christians considered certain Greek philosophers to have been enlightened by God to serve the cause of Truth and to lead men to fullness of life in God since the Word and Wisdom of God is revealed to all men and is found in all men who in the purity of their minds and hearts have been inspired by the Divine Light which enlightens every man who comes into this world. This Divine Light is the word of God, Jesus of Nazareth in human flesh, the perfection and fullness of God's self-revelation to the world.
 

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It should be remembered that the Greek philosophers mentioned by Fr Thomas lived before the establishment of the Church on Earth.  They did not have access to the Truth, except for what God may have revealed to them.

As noted by a spokesman for the Moscow Patriarchate, this recent decision only "further alienates the Anglican Communion from the Apostolic tradition."  There's really no positive side to that, except that it might awaken individual Anglicans and cause them to seek the Orthodox faith.  At least, that is what I am praying for.
 

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Maksim said:
It should be remembered that the Greek philosophers mentioned by Fr Thomas lived before the establishment of the Church on Earth.  They did not have access to the Truth, except for what God may have revealed to them.
It is remembered; and just as relevant today as when the Church was young. The Church is in dialogue with all peoples; it pays to know their beliefs if we wish to continue. If one wishes to cloister one's mind, one is free to do so; it isn't necessarily a virtue of Orthodoxy. Knowing what others believe isn't the same thing as agreeing with them. Finding common ground has been the way of dialogue; to the salvation of those we speak to. All truth is God's truth.

I apologise for taking the thread off on a tangent.
 

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Maksim said:
As noted by a spokesman for the Moscow Patriarchate, this recent decision only "further alienates the Anglican Communion from the Apostolic tradition."  There's really no positive side to that, except that it might awaken individual Anglicans and cause them to seek the Orthodox faith.  At least, that is what I am praying for.
This, of course, is an Orthodox opinion, but perhaps we should simply pray that God's Will be done.
 

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To my Episcoplaian and Anglican bretheren, I do not write this to offend you but to descibe briefly our eventual journey to the Orthodox Church and Why.

When my wife first left the Mormon Church she was attracted to The Episcopal Church.  Her Catechist Priest there told her that the Anglican Church was the Orthodox Church of England. She was happy to find what she believed to be a genuine apostolic church. Our sojurn in the Epsicopal Church lasted about three years. We left  and began our journey to Orthodoxy when the first women were  made priests in our Diocese and the ordaining ,male, bishop  preached on our daughter's confirmation day that Mary was not a Virgin at the birth of Christ, that Christ did not  physically raise from the dead,"because no one can do that", but that he was only spiritually resurrected (a heresy even among Episcopalians), and that the Apostles were great story tellers who wrote their Gospels in order to convert uneducated peasants to their movement.  Even our daughter had the common sense to recognize that that bishop was teaching false doctrine. We left and  within a year were chrismated as Orthodox Christians (we celebrated  20 years as Orthodox Christians last year).

Our hope is that the eyes of the Episcopalians/Anglicans may be opened to the false teachings that their leaders are presenting and be drawn to the Orthodox Church (Eastern or Western Rites) or demand their leaders return to the pristine beliefs of the Early Church . It is upon the Episcopalian laity to determine when enough is enough and determine if their loyalty is to a Church that is teaching  innovationism and modernism (and in extreme cases as in the case of our former bishop, even heresy) or to the Church as founded on Apostolic Christian teachings and bring about a return to the practices of the Early Church.

Thomas

 

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My take on this news, from another forum.

A few may become Orthodox just like 15 years ago.

There used to be Anglo-Orthodox in the Church of England, trying to be Orthodox where they were and hoping for corporate reunion of the C of E with Orthodoxy. (Encouraged by friendly Orthodox in the 1930s who believed if all Anglicans unprotestantised and became Orthodox the clergy could be received in their orders. IIRC the founding first hierarch of ROCOR believed that.) After the ordination of women they disbanded and converted.
 

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I have split of a tangent discussing GiC's personal beliefs from this thread and merged it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16542.msg242125.html#msg242125
 

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ComingHome said:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Church-of-England-General-Synod-Backs-Female-Ordination/Article/200807115026204?lpos=UK%2BNews_1&lid=ARTICLE_15026204_Church%2Bof%2BEngland%2BGeneral%2BSynod%2BBacks%2BFemale%2BOrdination

Was there ever any real doubt?  Lord have mercy!
They are on "fast track". Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIp19SjXCJw

The bad looking biker dude was the only sane one in the building.





JNORM888
 

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jnorm888 said:
They are on "fast track". Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIp19SjXCJw

The bad looking biker dude was the only sane one in the building. I know that some may not of liked what he's done, but if he was Anglican then I don't see a problem with it. If was wasn't Anglican then I would see it as being rude.

But he was the only sane one in the building.



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jnorm888

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greekischristian said:
In general, it is more useful to allow each religion to define their own terms and dogmas, rather than dictating to them what they mean. I am sure that the CoE is no more concerned about your definition of 'validity' than you are concerned with the Dalai Lama's definition of 'holiness'.
The Dalai Lama doesn't claim to be christian. He claims to be Bhuddist, so his dispute is whith other bhuddists. The Cof E claims to be christian so other people who claim to be christian should have a say in the matter.

I use to be C of E and I think Amdetsion was in the right.



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greekischristian

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jnorm888 said:
The Dalai Lama doesn't claim to be christian. He claims to be Bhuddist, so his dispute is whith other bhuddists. The Cof E claims to be christian so other people who claim to be christian should have a say in the matter.

I use to be C of E and I think Amdetsion was in the right.
Buddhist, Christian, Pagan, what's the difference? You all believe in metaphysical things so shouldn't other people who claim to believe in metaphysical things have a say in the matter?
 

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greekischristian said:
Rude and obnoxious is your definition of sane? By your reasoning I must be a saint. ;D
O most rational first mover
we contemplate the proof of your existance
we reflect over your logical and realist servant Saint GIC
which assisted us in understanding the nature of your being.
Let us now bow our heads and reason.
 

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jnorm888 said:
The bad looking biker dude was the only sane one in the building.
One wonders how you *know* that and what do you mean by "sane", please?    :-\  You do not know the people who were attending or why some of them might have been there.  You disapprove of one man and so it's just fine that someone should act as the "biker dude" did?    It's fine to interrupt the speaking or services of someone or some Church that you don't like?

What if someone did that to one that you did?  Is it 'sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander' or a matter of whose ox is being gored?  :-\ 

And, I'm sorry, but Amdetsion has not shown that he knows much at all about the history or present situation of the Anglican Communion, nor what serious practicing Anglicans believe or do, or even if he knows any real life Anglicans.  Making disparaging remarks about another without any fact or support is not necessarily being "in the right".  :(

Sigh.

Ebor
 

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Ebor said:
One wonders how you *know* that and what do you mean by "sane", please?    :-\  You do not know the people who were attending or why some of them might have been there.  You disapprove of one man and so it's just fine that someone should act as the "biker dude" did?    It's fine to interrupt the speaking or services of someone or some Church that you don't like?

What if someone did that to one that you did?  Is it 'sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander' or a matter of whose ox is being gored?  :-\ 

And, I'm sorry, but Amdetsion has not shown that he knows much at all about the history or present situation of the Anglican Communion, nor what serious practicing Anglicans believe or do, or even if he knows any real life Anglicans.  Making disparaging remarks about another without any fact or support is not necessarily being "in the right".  :(

Sigh.

Ebor
So in counting these individuals, do I need one hand or two?  ;D
.
 
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