macedonia74
Sr. Member
Was not Christ also a Jew?
scamandrius said:I have never once perceived the celebration of the Liturgy whether at Pascha or any other time to be in the least anti-semitic. And usually I'm pretty good at paying attention to the words in our hymnography. The priests in this article are labeled as "dissident." Is that meant to imply that they are non-canonical? See the article at:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152838943&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Keep in mind that you and I are going to be judged by God just like all other people including the Jews.observer said:If you crucifry someone, you kill them. They die. What concerns me is this PC virus that attempts to undermine our faith. Of course we must love our enemies, but that does not mean we should bow and scrape to please them! We do what we do. You don' t like it, well tuff.
The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.Linichka said:"observer": The Jews are NOT our enemies. Far from it.
Sorry about the tone and I apologize for that but the issue is a red herring. Should not clergy know that? In an earlier post I noted that criticism of any form of Christian faith that sounds "mean" gets more scrutiny than the nightmarish cultures that exist within other faiths. For example honor killings, sex selective abortions, female infanticide etc. and believe me these abominations are the "fruits" of some other "faiths." When one notices the apostates within the Episcopalian church any Christian should see the perils of satanic influence. For example, the Episcopalian "bishop" J Shelby Spong wrote a book entitled: "Why Christianity must change or die" and he acknowledges if his "reforms" fail and the faith "die" so be it. I wonder if some "enlightened" individual will write: "Why Orthodoxy must change or die?" "Test the spirits; Test all things, hold fast what is good and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."Linichka said:Recent Convert, your response strikes me as knee-jerk and extreme.
We are to love our enemies.greekischristian said:The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.
More like the Pharisee/Jews using a typical tactic called "Shabbos Goy" to kill Jesus. You know Modern Day Jews using none Jews at the Cash Register or the front desk to prevent customer from being scared off.BJohnD said:A verse that the OSB (at least) notes should never be used to attack Jews or Judaism. WE are the children upon whom the blood shines bright.
You love em go back to brooklyn! ..|.Pravoslavbob said:Your views are clearly motivated by racism and bigotry, and I am astonished that you are allowed to continue disseminating them here.
Meaning no disrespect....Jibrail Almuhajir said:Are the Jews of today personably responsible for crucifying Christ? I would argue probably not
By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous. That is not per se against Christianity, any person who made the claim would have been held to be blaspheming. Trying to understand this idea or belief from an adherants viewpoint can be helpful.BUT, if you ask an observant Jew about Christ, they will say Jesus (they don't use the word 'Christ') was a blasphemer and a convict.
There is no "Jews" as "our friends" or as "enemies"; there are millions of individual persons, people who are just as Human as you or I. They are not a monolithic bloc with one behaviour or view anymore then with any other subset of Humanity.This should shed more than a little light about Judaism. It's debatable whether or not Jews are our friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they aren't our friends
If they did not belief that they had Truth, they would not be practicing Jews, one might suspect. And considering the violence and slaughter and cruelty that has at times in history been visited on Human Beings because they were Jewish by other people who were Christian, one might try to look at it from that viewpoint. Why should they welcome that which has harmed their people in the centuries past?The local rabbi here in my town has written to the paper explaining that, although Christians are welcome to their synogogue, we are to leave our religion at the door because they already have the truth.
Just telling another person that one has The Truth does not mean that they will accept that without question or hesitation. Why should they? When you were Muslim if a Christian came to you and said baldly "We have the Truth and you don't. Your religion is false." How would you have reacted? How do you show someone who does not belong to your religious group the Truth if previous claimants treated their ancestors brutally?The Truth (Orthodox Christianity) will always offend those who are opposed to it or who do not understand it.
It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time. Why should they? How will one convince anyone else? How would one react if they did not accept your "Truth" instantly? How do you react when treated in such a way? "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is something to remember. Try to understand other people as just as Human as oneself.After all, we aren't calling for them to change the wording of their prayers, we're calling for them to abandon them altogether and accept the Life Giving water of Christ....
None taken, Ebor.Ebor said:Meaning no disrespect....
I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply. No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam. How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past?Amdetsion said:Ebor
If The Jews of today had nothing to do with what happened to Christ because so many thousands of years has come between the current age; than does this also justify that humankind in general are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve the parents of the human race? That happened even longer ago.
If we are not responsible for the sins of our father Adam than we also have no need for Christ who is Jesus the Son of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
?? How do you know this? Are you versed in Jewish theology? Do you know any practicing Jewish people? There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT.The Jews of the past and those we know today do not have this hope. They are still unrepentent for the sins of Adam which was never absolved by the Law but was made known by the Law.
Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.The fact that the Jews of the Christs era
I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all. The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33. How is this a "fact"?were guilty of His arrest, trial, persecution, judgement, scorging and crucifiction makes it also a fact that if the Jews today are still the Jews of the time of the Christ
Just as guilty? And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"? Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them. How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God?then they are still just as guilty as if they were standing right thier at the cross laughing and spitting. Many if not most of todays Jews still curse the Lord just like or worse than the Jews of the Christs era.
Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them. :-\We are to have mercy on them just like Christ has. He asked The Father "forgive them for they know not what they do".
??? I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here? Could you please explain? Thank you in advance.Is it not clear that a man that believes that death and destruction can be a tool to achieve a holy relationship with God is completely lost?
So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?He is lost and whoever pushed him onto the blind ally he is on is even more lost.
As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?Destruction in all its forms are the product of hopelessness. Not Holiness.
Indeed and on that we can agree.This situation needs our love and mercy. Not scorn and hate.
The God we worship (I worship) loves all people.
If you could explain how I may have misunderstood some of what you wrote, perhaps another thread can be started to go over things, since it is not necessarily part of the OP.Jibrail Almuhajir said:None taken, Ebor.I think you may have misinterpreted my comments though.
Oh I don't know about that... Some of the threads on this forum have gone somewhat that way.You had a lot of good of good answers, but they were to questions not asked. I don't want to digress into a situation where we each isolate and disect the others every sentence for historical accuracy and sensitivity training, nor do I think the other members wish to see that.
Perhaps a different thread would be better since many other people also read these threads including lurkers and they might be interested.If you wish to continue this subject with me, then PM me. I'll be happy to clear up any questions.
It is not my place to comment on that one way or the other. I'm not EO, so I "don't have a dog in that hunt" as the saying goes. I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.The last thing I will say though, getting back on original topic, is that we can not and will not change the Liturgy, prayers, or services of the Holy catholic and apostolic church (that is to say the Holy Orthodox Church) to placate those who are offended. :-*![]()
I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative. You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.Ebor said:I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply. No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam. How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past?
"For as in Adam all die" is that the result of the original sin is a broken humanity and world. We are all flawed and fall short. But to continue the verse in Corinthians "even so in Christ shall all be made alive". Things were broken and Our Lord came to mend things, as it were.
?? How do you know this? Are you versed in Jewish theology? Do you know any practicing Jewish people? There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT.
Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.
I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all. The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33. How is this a "fact"?
Just as guilty? And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"? Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them. How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God?
Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them. :-\
??? I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here? Could you please explain? Thank you in advance.
So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?
As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?
Indeed and on that we can agree.
With Respect,
Ebor
How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?Aristibule said:This might help:
Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.
Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.
Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.
To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.
To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.
To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
Crazies.macedonia74 said:How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?sdcheung said:Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org
One way of understanding it is that it is an attempt by some Protestants to finally look for tradition after scorning it for so long. For those it has often been a 'halfway house' to Orthodoxy (like the Old Catholic movement, etc.) That was true in my case, as also for a few of my friends (one Antiochian priest was also Jews for Jesus.) Otherwise, there is some idea of competition - mostly because they find it difficult that Orthodoxy exists (and, not claiming to be a 'Gentile church'.) The Messianic/Hebraist community was overjoyed by the article that started this thread - that's how I found out about it myself (triumphal FWD of the article several times from Messianic friends and family.)macedonia74 said:How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
...
You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?
By our virtue of being Christians, Ebor, we are anti-Judaic. That is, we are against the Judaic theology. Christianity and Judaism do indeed share a common thread, but this in no way implies that we can agree with one another on points of theology. The two are and always will be mutually exclusive. Likewise, by virtue of being Christians, we are pro-Jew (again, I am using Aristibule's terminology). We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with. And I might add that the Jewish people are made in the same image and likeness of God as a Christian. And BTW, the word 'anti-semitic' is a Zionist word concocted by the Zionist facists to help them in their efforts to continuously displace and subjugate the Palestinians, who are ALSO semitic people (since you have a keen interest in historical accuracy).Aristibule said:To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.
To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.
To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.Ebor said:By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous. That is not per se against Christianity,
It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew. What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death. I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason, but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others.Ebor said:It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time. Why should they?
I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.Ebor said:I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.
It's absolutely disgusting to hear and see this kind of rubbish being propagated as Christianity! But then again, what do you expect from 'pastor' Hagee-berg?!sdcheung said:Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org
There's no question that it is. AIPAC (American Israel Political Action Committee) is one of THE most powerful and influential of all the lobbies.macedonia74 said:You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?
I am asking for clarification of what you are trying to say and what you mean by "responsible". How is asking questions "argumentative" please?Amdetsion said:I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative.
I was looking at specific things that you wrote and asking how you knew some things that you asserted. "Concocted" My apologies, but I was trying to look at seperate points and claims.You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.
Could you please state the point you were trying to say in other words? I am trying to understand what you mean.You missed my point by leagues.
By the Fall of Adam and Eve all of humankind are subject to sin and evil and death. By disobedience to God all things are 'broken'. The actions of 2 resulted in this being part of human behaviour through the decendents.I bieleve you are making points that are fair from an open, liberal, contemporary perspective not strictly based on orthodox terms.
My point is regarding ancient Christian teachings (orthodoxy).
I am not allowing room for "modern" thinking or view point. This is probably why you could not understand what I described as the 'original sins of Adam'.
Indeed, this is what is taught by Christianity and I understand, follow and believe it. Perhaps you do not understand some of what I am writing... My apologies if I am unclear to your reading.The Orthodox Church teaches that WE are born with the original sin of Adam (that includes you and everybody you know).
This is the basis of why we (all people) need the Messiah..."the Christ". If we all DID NOT inheret the original sin than we are thus sinless. The Original sin is the root of all sin.
Again without the root than NO sin. Christ is the only person to come through the womb and into the world at DID NOT have the originally sin. He was born sinless, the son of God.
Pardon me, but you seem to be saying that noone who belonged to the EO part of Christendom was ever guilty of brutality or cruelty or oppression. The treatment of the Bulgars under the reign of Basil II is not pretty reading. There are many cases of pogroms against Jewish persons in Russia. The Emperors and Empresses of Constantinople in many cases were hardly pacifists or forgiving in their dealings with others who also wanted power. If such things were not included in the history, then it is not telling the truth, but in fact, such incidents and persons *are* in the history.Just because people clain they are "christian" does not make them true followers or members of the true church. The people who totured Arabs for the long sad period of barbarism known as the crusade were not followers of Christ at all for example. These were money men, power brokers, profiteers, pirates. Most people do not know that these strange "cross bearing" people killed with lust the Holy Christians first (the orthodox) during their 100 or so year romp in the holy land. These people are kindly (PROUDLY) called "Christians" by thier cohorts and stand bys. Shame!
Those people were the hopeless and the sorriful. The misguided masses. They left a stink on the earth, a stain of great size that is the trademark of of western imperialism and greed which to this day continues encourges outrage and violence. The Orthodox Church does not include in its history these people and thier actions. Thus the true Church has no "crusade" history but we are still subject to the fallout.
It is interesting that asking questions for clarification and pointing out that other people have their own view points and ideas on things is called "argumentative". One wonders if the mere fact of not accepting some unsupported assertions and opinions is counted as "arguing". However, one might prefer to address the subject points and not any possible personal character flaws.Jibrail Almuhajir said:Ebor, I must say that I am of the same opinion with Amdetsion; you are being so argumentative and 'nit-picky' that it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with you.
"Compelled"? We have been created with Free Will and while we have the commandments of Jesus "Love your neighbor as yourself" we are free to not follow them if we so choose. God does not force us to do things, but we may submit to His words.Never-the-less, I will attempt it for the sake of Christian charity. Using Aristibule's post (which BTW was brilliant), let's work through this together.
We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with.
Indeed, it says that one crowd of people in one city said that. Should the words of one small portion of an ethnic or religious group then pertain to *all* people who belong to it both at that time and in the future generations unborn? Would one like that applied to ones own faith, Church, ethnic group etc? And yet such a verse has in the past been used to, as you wrote, "justify violence against" Jewish people.I had a little reservation in saying the Jews probably aren't personably responsible for Christ's crucifixion, but I based my wording on the following Bible verse: "And after Pilate saw that nothing was to be of use, but rather that an uproar was taking place, he took water and washed off his hands for himself before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of the blood of this just One; ye shall see to it.' And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and our children.'" St. Matthew 27:24,25 Now before you get worked up, this verse IS NOT EVER to be used to justify violence against the Jews. But it does say a lot doesn't it Ebor?
Indeed.I should have added that we all participate in the crucifixion when we deny Jesus by giving in to our passions by sinning.
Excuse me, but there is a vast difference between a religious body that has been around for millenia and (according to their own and Christian beliefs) were directed by God and given his Word and Scriptures) and a group such as the KKK. (and I am aware of both the early years of the KKK under Nathan Bedford Forrest and the later horrors that occurred).Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.
May one ask if you were born into a muslim family? If you prefer to not answer, I apolgize for the question.It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew.
I have read of such cases as well as how converts to Christianity or Christians themselves are sometimes treated in muslim countries. It is a very sorry thing.What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death.
But a believing Jewish person does not believe that Our Lord died for all of humanity any more then a devout Muslim would. They would believe that He was just a man who died.I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason
Indeed, and that gets back to the *how* and *what* of such teaching. And it's hard to convince someone after many centuries of historical violence.but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others.
Well, no, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. It was not the words "anti-semitic" which is, after all in the thread title. Nor am I "hyper-sensitive" to the issue, unless the root issue is not understanding that people who do not agree with oneself or are like ones own group/faith are still Human Beings whom God created and made in His image and should be treated as we ourselves would want to be treated. (Golden Rule and all that,I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.
Thank you for taking the time!Aristibule said:This might help:
Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.
Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.
Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.
To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.
To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.
To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.