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Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy

StephenG

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Not according to a Russian fascist noble lady I knew, Jesus and his Mother were not Jewish but belonged to a now lost Russian tribe.................

Heaven spare us from this sort of bigoted nonsense.
 

Amdetsion

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scamandrius said:
I have never once perceived the celebration of the Liturgy whether at Pascha or any other time to be in the least anti-semitic.  And usually I'm pretty good at paying attention to the words in our hymnography.  The priests in this article are labeled as "dissident."  Is that meant to imply that they are non-canonical?  See the article at:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152838943&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

WOW!!

Absolutely unbelieveable article.

It appears that 'areas' of influence in the orthodox church are going down yet another crooked road yet again.

I feel sorry for the laity in these areas where the 12 fathers come from. I was shocked more on the fact that these priests complied with this document in "defiance" of thier hierarchs. This is more shocking than the subject to me. These priest acted outside the church and thus thier actions are to be ignored until the Holy Fathers hand down thier decision on the matter.

No decisions of this magnitude can be excuted without full authority of the hierarchs of the Holy Orthodox Church in general and even then the fathers would draft thier own declaration. These 12 priest are NOT the representatives of "the Orthodox church" as the article quoted. The whole act is scandelous.

I have no problem with building relations with todays Jews, Roman Catholics, and all other religious communities. And if any single orthodox communion has sour words in their liturgy that is hateful toward anyone they should adjust the language.

If anothor religious group simply does not like what we are for what we believe and take offense to us than  we must defdend our faith. But we are not to be haters of any person or religious group not even in an indirect way.

The Holy Fathers have to conviene and make all decsions on any matter of the Holy Universal Church. Thats my point. Until then the Orthodox Church stands on her God given terms as they remain. NO renegade group of priest, or laity can over step that legally.

 

Amdetsion

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To All:

Of the Seven Words Christ uttered on the Cross was " forgive them since they know not what they do"

This is repeated during in His beautitude prior to His crucifiction by the Hs acusers; he said: "Love your eneimies"

Christ is clearly acknowledging that "they" are guilty but at the same time "they" are to be forgiven.

Who is "they": Anyone who took part in accusing, trying, and condeming Him to death; this includes the executioner.

As true believers it does not matter who crucified Christ since no matter who it was we are to forgive them fully for it.

Christ was not killed; He was crucified. The crucifiction resulted in His death but was the bases of His Holy resurrection. Thus it is not a true statement that "Christ was Killed". Christ the true Messiah lives. Anything that is killed is doomed to death.

To say "Christ killer" is secular non-sense.
 

macedonia74

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To spin a bit off of Amdetsion's post:

The debate on who 'killed Christ' is a bit misguided by those who try to lay blame, and by those who try to say 'it wasn't my fault.' It's almost pointless to debate this, and it's pointless to 'amend' the Divine Liturgy to appease emotional-irrationality fueled by a politically centered, religious, ideology like Zionism is.

Scripture is clear that Christ willingly went to His Crucifiction. The point of His death, was His resurrection. And unless I've been totally off my rocker for the past 30 years, so is the Divine Liturgy.

I think the question that needs to be asked is: Why are some trying to down play Christ's Resurrection?
 

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If you crucifry someone, you kill them.  They die.  What concerns me  is this PC virus that attempts to undermine our faith. Of course we must love our enemies, but that does not mean we should bow and scrape to please them!  We do what we do. You don' t like it, well tuff.
 

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"observer":  The Jews are NOT our enemies.  Far from it.
 

Amdetsion

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observer said:
If you crucifry someone, you kill them.  They die.  What concerns me  is this PC virus that attempts to undermine our faith. Of course we must love our enemies, but that does not mean we should bow and scrape to please them!  We do what we do. You don' t like it, well tuff.
Keep in mind that you and I are going to be judged by God just like all other people including the Jews.

I pray that the lord does'nt say "well tuff" to you and I after we finish explaining and pleading to him for forgiveness for all of our horrible sins.

You are a useless sinner and I am the chief of all sinners.

May God help us.

Remember to love your enemies. This is unconditional.
 

observer

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Interesting that criticism of Jews brings such righteousness indignation.  God help us when Anti-Christ takes over- of course He will if we follow Christ and not the PC agenda.
 

greekischristian

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Linichka said:
"observer":  The Jews are NOT our enemies.  Far from it.
The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.
 

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  If the Orthodox Church, or any religious group or organization, or ANY group or organization, for that matter, were to "remove" parts of their services, rituals, constitutions, etc., etc., etc., at the behest of those who complain about different things for one reason or another, then we might as well completely delete everything-because SOMEONE will complain about it at all at some point! C'mon, now, lets try to make EVERYBODY happy!
  The priests calling for this might be "dissident," but undoubtedly not "uncanonical"-the "uncanonical" would not be for deleting these references (the "uncanonical"-a term which really means absolutely NOTHING, most often refer to the much dreaded "Old Calendarist" types, who, horror of horrors, prefer traditionalism over modernism and minimalism in worship and Church life); the "dissidents" are those, usually, who feel that Orthodoxy is too old fashioned, and that it needs to get in line with Roman Catholicism, or better yet, Protestantism, so it can be "in touch with the times." Maybe we could all just stay home and watch Mass on tv . . . a guitar mass, too, no doubt-oops, no, that is probably out of date-how about an Internet Mass? We could all receive virtual communion, then afterwards, we could all blog about the uplifting spiritual experience . . . 
  The references in the Services that some have deemed "anti-semitic" are part of the Orthodox tradition-of belief, of history, of the Services . . . in short, diluting or deleting would change much more than just the Services in question.
 
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This is a red herring tactic by a group of satanists wanting to destroy the faith from within.
 

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Recent Convert, your response strikes me as knee-jerk and extreme.
 
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Linichka said:
Recent Convert, your response strikes me as knee-jerk and extreme.
Sorry about the tone and I apologize for that but the issue is a red herring. Should not clergy know that?  In an earlier post I noted that criticism of any form of Christian faith that sounds "mean" gets more scrutiny than the nightmarish cultures that exist within other faiths. For example honor killings, sex selective abortions, female infanticide etc. and believe me these abominations are the "fruits" of some other "faiths." When one notices the apostates within the Episcopalian church any Christian should see the perils of satanic influence. For example, the Episcopalian "bishop" J Shelby Spong wrote a book entitled: "Why Christianity must change or die" and he acknowledges if his "reforms" fail and the faith "die" so be it. I wonder if some "enlightened" individual will write: "Why Orthodoxy must change or die?" "Test the spirits; Test all things, hold fast what is good and be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."
 

Amdetsion

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greekischristian said:
The Jews are not our enemies, but they once were. Today we share a common enemy with the Jews, the mohammedan race. But because we are not the enemies we once were does not mean that we should forget our past. I see no reason to change our liturgy in some Orwellian attempt to erase the historical record.
We are to love our enemies.

If then we really do that (without conditions) what then is an "enemy"?
 
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Does anyone consider that a coterie of individuals have found a "hot issue" within the Divine Liturgy to upset our ability to worship according to our saviour's command: " God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:24)? Mankind crucified Jesus Christ and any hierarch who used any aspect of the Holy Gospel to instigate a progrom against the Jews or anyone else failed to minister to what was entrusted. If it was not "anti-semitism" in the liturgy it would be some other "hot topic" that we need to "repent" of in order to conform to the emerging false world religion.
 

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The moslems are not our enemy either - they are simply hornets that are being stirred up against Christian values.  The dangerous enemy is the one within i.e. the ecumenists that would sell out our faith to appease secular interests.  The current attack on Jerusalem is an example - But by the Grace of God, these robber bishops will not succeed.  I think the Phanar will end up with some egg on its ecumenistic visage.

 

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BJohnD said:
A verse that the OSB (at least) notes should never be used to attack Jews or Judaism.  WE are the children upon whom the blood shines bright.
More like the Pharisee/Jews using a typical tactic called "Shabbos Goy" to kill Jesus. You know Modern Day Jews using none Jews at the Cash Register or the front desk to prevent customer from being scared off. 
 

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Pravoslavbob said:
Your views are clearly motivated by racism and bigotry, and I am astonished that you are allowed to continue disseminating them here.
You love em go back to brooklyn! ..|.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Are the Jews of today personably responsible for crucifying Christ? I would argue probably not BUT, if you ask an observant Jew about Christ, they will say Jesus (they don't use the word 'Christ') was a blasphemer and a convict. This should shed more than a little light about Judaism. It's debatable whether or not Jews are our friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they aren't our friends, but when I look at how they're using the Muslims to attack Palestinian Christians, I have to wonder. The local rabbi here in my town has written to the paper explaining that, although Christians are welcome to their synogogue, we are to leave our religion at the door because they already have the truth. And this is really what we're talking about here. Religious teachings. We as Orthodox Christians are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED to any teaching that goes against the Church and her teachings. And this, my brothers and sisters, includes Judaism.

Yes, we are to love all people, but does this mean that in loving someone, we are to change part of our religion to placate them because they are offended? NO! The Truth (Orthodox Christianity) will always offend those who are opposed to it or who do not understand it. That's why the burden is on US to explain the Truth to the world. It is a great sin that Christians have used the Jews as scapegoats for many of the worlds ills to justify brutality and bloodshed against them, but you better understand that if we should start re-writing or omitting prayers we don't understand or like, we very soon will find ourselves outside of the Church (and this most definately includes the prayers of the Saints!) where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but this article sounds like more Zionist tacticts to undermine Christianity. I would be most interested in hearing from those priests, rather than reading snippits of their comments in a Zionist Israeli newspaper. After all, we aren't calling for them to change the wording of their prayers, we're calling for them to abandon them altogether and accept the Life Giving water of Christ....


Gabriel

 

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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
Are the Jews of today personably responsible for crucifying Christ? I would argue probably not
Meaning no disrespect....

*Probably*?!?  How was any Jewish person who is alive today in any way involved in a real historical incident that is nearly 2000 years in the past?  No one alive todays voice or hands were involved in the trial or driving the nails.  How is it "probably not" may one ask?

BUT, if you ask an observant Jew about Christ, they will say Jesus (they don't use the word 'Christ') was a blasphemer and a convict.
By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous.  That is not per se against Christianity, any person who made the claim would have been held to be blaspheming.  Trying to understand this idea or belief from an adherants viewpoint can be helpful.

This should shed more than a little light about Judaism. It's debatable whether or not Jews are our friends. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they aren't our friends
There is no "Jews" as "our friends" or as "enemies"; there are millions of individual persons, people who are just as Human as you or I.  They are not a monolithic bloc with one behaviour or view anymore then with any other subset of Humanity.

The local rabbi here in my town has written to the paper explaining that, although Christians are welcome to their synogogue, we are to leave our religion at the door because they already have the truth.
If they did not belief that they had Truth, they would not be practicing Jews, one might suspect.  And considering the violence and slaughter and cruelty that has at times in history been visited on Human Beings because they were Jewish by other people who were Christian, one might try to look at it from that viewpoint.  Why should they welcome that which has harmed their people in the centuries past?

The Truth (Orthodox Christianity) will always offend those who are opposed to it or who do not understand it.
Just telling another person that one has The Truth does not mean that they will accept that without question or hesitation. Why should they? When you were Muslim if a Christian came to you and said baldly "We have the Truth and you don't. Your religion is false."  How would you have reacted?   How do you show someone who does not belong to your religious group the Truth if previous claimants treated their ancestors brutally?

After all, we aren't calling for them to change the wording of their prayers, we're calling for them to abandon them altogether and accept the Life Giving water of Christ....
It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time.  Why should they?  How will one convince anyone else?  How would one react if they did not accept your "Truth" instantly?  How do you react when treated in such a way?  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is something to remember.  Try to understand other people as just as Human as oneself.

For the record, I am not nor have I ever been Jewish. 

Respectfully,

Ebor

 

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Ebor

If The Jews of today had nothing to do with what happened to Christ because so many thousands of years has come between the current age; than does this also justify that humankind in general are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve the parents of the human race? That happened even longer ago.

If we are not responsible for the sins of our father Adam than we also have no need for Christ who is Jesus the Son of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It was Adam (through Eve) that sin came into the world. Jesus the Christ is the only way to salvation from our sins. The sins we have are rooted in the sins of Adam. Without Adams sins then we come to the world without original sin and are thus at a point in our lives sinless like God.

We know that we all come to the world with the original sin (of Adam). We never experience any moment of tome on the earth without the shackle of sin unitl we are emersed in Christ flesh and blood which heals all sin and removes the bond of Adam.

The Jews of the past and those we know today do not have this hope. They are still unrepentent for the sins of Adam which was never absolved by the Law but was made known by the Law. The Law was given to give sin its name and character so that it can be understood and effectively removed; not by the Law but by grace and mercy in the salvation of Christ.

The fact that the Jews of the Christs era were guilty of His arrest, trial, persecution, judgement, scorging and crucifiction makes it also a fact that if the Jews today are still the Jews of the time of the Christ then they are still just as guilty as if they were standing right thier at the cross laughing and spitting. Many if not most of todays Jews still curse the Lord just like or worse than the Jews of the Christs era.

We are to have mercy on them just like Christ has. He asked The Father "forgive them for they know not what they do". Rest assure that those we know today as Jews are still ignorant of the Truth (Christ is the Truth). The Truth that came to all people from Jewish roots.

This is a free choice which we all have. We can deny or accept.

Muslim are also worthy of mercy.

Is it not clear that a man that believes that death and destruction can be a tool to achieve a holy relationship with God is completely lost?

He is lost and whoever pushed him onto the blind ally he is on is even more lost.

Destruction in all its forms are the product of hopelessness. Not Holiness.

This situation needs our love and mercy. Not scorn and hate.

The God we worship (I worship) loves all people.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Ebor said:
Meaning no disrespect....
None taken, Ebor.  :D I think you may have misinterpreted my comments though. You had a lot of good of good answers, but they were to questions not asked. I don't want to digress into a situation where we each isolate and disect the others every sentence for historical accuracy and sensitivity training, nor do I think the other members wish to see that. If you wish to continue this subject with me, then PM me. I'll be happy to clear up any questions. The last thing I will say though, getting back on original topic, is that we can not and will not change the Liturgy, prayers, or services of the Holy catholic and apostolic church (that is to say the Holy Orthodox Church) to placate those who are offended.  :-*  :D

Gabriel 

 

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"It is time for us to recognize the charge of anti-Semitism for what it often is: a political weapon intended to silence critics of liberalism."  -  Rabbi Daniel Lapin

"Unfounded charges of anti-Jewish sentiments not only malign the innocent. They also create a ‘boy who cried wolf’ syndrome, in that they may well render society insensitive to real bigotry when it does come along..."  -  Rabbi Mayer Schiller

It seems even Jews are sick of all these outcries about anti-Semitism where none is to be found, for it may create a, as Rabbi Mayer Schiller said, "'boy who cried wolf’ syndrome" at the very least.
 

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Amdetsion said:
Ebor

If The Jews of today had nothing to do with what happened to Christ because so many thousands of years has come between the current age; than does this also justify that humankind in general are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve the parents of the human race? That happened even longer ago.

If we are not responsible for the sins of our father Adam than we also have no need for Christ who is Jesus the Son of the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply.  No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam.  How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past? 

"For as in Adam all die" is that the result of the original sin is a broken humanity and world. We are all flawed and fall short.  But to continue the verse in Corinthians "even so in Christ shall all be made alive".  Things were broken and Our Lord came to mend things, as it were. 

The Jews of the past and those we know today do not have this hope. They are still unrepentent for the sins of Adam which was never absolved by the Law but was made known by the Law.
?? How do you know this?  Are you versed in Jewish theology?  Do you know any practicing Jewish people?  There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT. 

The fact that the Jews of the Christs era
Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.

were guilty of His arrest, trial, persecution, judgement, scorging and crucifiction makes it also a fact that if the Jews today are still the Jews of the time of the Christ
I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all.  The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33.  How is this a "fact"?

then they are still just as guilty as if they were standing right thier at the cross laughing and spitting. Many if not most of todays Jews still curse the Lord just like or worse than the Jews of the Christs era.
Just as guilty?  And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"?  Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them.  How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God? 

We are to have mercy on them just like Christ has. He asked The Father "forgive them for they know not what they do".
Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them.  :-\

Is it not clear that a man that believes that death and destruction can be a tool to achieve a holy relationship with God is completely lost?
???  I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here?  Could you please explain?  Thank you in advance.

He is lost and whoever pushed him onto the blind ally he is on is even more lost.
So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?

Destruction in all its forms are the product of hopelessness. Not Holiness.
As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?

This situation needs our love and mercy. Not scorn and hate.

The God we worship (I worship) loves all people.
Indeed and on that we can agree.  :)

With Respect,

Ebor
 

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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
None taken, Ebor.  :D I think you may have misinterpreted my comments though.
If you could explain how I may have misunderstood some of what you wrote, perhaps another thread can be started to go over things, since it is not necessarily part of the OP.

You had a lot of good of good answers, but they were to questions not asked. I don't want to digress into a situation where we each isolate and disect the others every sentence for historical accuracy and sensitivity training, nor do I think the other members wish to see that.
Oh I don't know about that... Some of the threads on this forum have gone somewhat that way.  ;)  Historical accuracy in important and treating other people as Human Beings is hardly "sensitivity  training" but a commandment of Our Lord.

If you wish to continue this subject with me, then PM me. I'll be happy to clear up any questions.
Perhaps a different thread would be better since many other people also read these threads including lurkers and they might be interested.  :)

The last thing I will say though, getting back on original topic, is that we can not and will not change the Liturgy, prayers, or services of the Holy catholic and apostolic church (that is to say the Holy Orthodox Church) to placate those who are offended.  :-*  :D
It is not my place to comment on that one way or the other.  I'm not EO, so I "don't have a dog in that hunt" as the saying goes.  I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.

With Respect,

Ebor
 

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For me at least, this discussion has been begging the following question(s) for quite some while. Where do we draw the lines between Judiasm/Jews and Zionsm? Within this, where do we draw the line between legitimate anti-semetism, as opposed to our self-preservation from something that is evil or a wolf in sheeps' clothing?

Help!
 

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This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
 

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Ebor said:
I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "responsible" here please? I do not see how definitions like "being the agent or cause" of something or " held liable or accountable for a particular action" would apply.  No one on this forum was the cause or agent of the Sin of Adam.  How could any person be responsible for the sins or deeds of someone who lived long in the past? 

"For as in Adam all die" is that the result of the original sin is a broken humanity and world. We are all flawed and fall short.  But to continue the verse in Corinthians "even so in Christ shall all be made alive".  Things were broken and Our Lord came to mend things, as it were. 

?? How do you know this?  Are you versed in Jewish theology?  Do you know any practicing Jewish people?  There are plenty of examples of repentance in the OT. 

Some Jews, not all or most, but a small portion in one place in time and location.

I'm sorry, I do not follow this at all.  The Human Beings alive today are not the same people in Jerusalem in AD 29-33.  How is this a "fact"?

Just as guilty?  And why do you think that some persons of Jewish background might "curse the Lord"?  Because people who claimed to be followers of Jesus have in many times and places abused, killed, harassed, stolen from them and lied about them.  How could they see such deeds as coming from followers of God? 

Jesus asked the Father to forgive them, but His followers have at times not but blamed them and taken it on themselves to punish them.   :-\

???  I'm sorry again, but what are you talking about here?  Could you please explain?  Thank you in advance.

So, the Christians who killed Jews and told lies about them, thereby teaching them to not trust Christians or their beliefs are more lost?

As in destroying other people who do not believe the same as oneself?

Indeed and on that we can agree.  :)

With Respect,

Ebor
I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative. You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.

You missed my point by leagues.

Maybe I write poorly.

I bieleve you are making points that are fair from an open, liberal, contemporary perspective not strictly based on orthodox terms.

My point is regarding ancient Christian teachings (orthodoxy).

I am not allowing room for "modern" thinking or view point. This is probably why you could not understand what I described as the 'original sins of Adam'.

Without this you can not follow anything else I stated.

The Orthodox Church teaches that WE are born with the original sin of Adam (that includes you and everybody you know).

This is the basis of why we (all people) need the Messiah..."the Christ". If we all DID NOT inheret the original sin than we are thus sinless. The Original sin is the root of all sin.

Again without the root than NO sin. Christ is the only person to come through the womb and into the world at DID NOT have the originally sin. He was born sinless, the son of God.

I will stop here since the main point of my post is hinged on a very important understanding of why we are Christians in the first place. This may not be that easy to explain.

I will leave with this:

Just because people clain they are "christian" does not make them true followers or members of the true church. The people who totured Arabs for the long sad period of barbarism known as the crusade were not followers of Christ at all for example. These were money men, power brokers, profiteers, pirates. Most people do not know that these strange "cross bearing" people killed with lust the Holy Christians first (the orthodox) during their 100 or so year romp in the holy land. These people are kindly (PROUDLY) called "Christians" by thier cohorts and stand bys. Shame!

Those people were the hopeless and the sorriful. The misguided masses. They left a stink on the earth, a stain of great size that is the trademark of of western imperialism and greed which to this day continues encourges outrage and violence. The Orthodox Church does not include in its history these people and thier actions. Thus the true Church has no "crusade" history but we are still subject to the fallout.

Killing and torturing Jews, enslaving Ethiopians (or Africans as we are commonly known today) or nay other people and all other "wilding out" that has permeated the glode by people who claim Christ are really people who worship the world NOT Christ. These people and those that agree with them would never put there wordly love at jeopardy for Christ sake. People like this serve themselves. The have a facade of faith without the action. They do ot obey God.

 

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Aristibule said:
This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
 

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macedonia74 said:
How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org
 

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sdcheung said:
Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org
You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?
 

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macedonia74 said:
How then, as Orthodox Christians, understand the rising tide of Zionism in American Protestism, the growing Messianic Jewish movement, i.e. Jews for Christ and their claims of being the True Church?
...
You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?
One way of understanding it is that it is an attempt by some Protestants to finally look for tradition after scorning it for so long. For those it has often been a 'halfway house' to Orthodoxy (like the Old Catholic movement, etc.) That was true in my case, as also for a few of my friends (one Antiochian priest was also Jews for Jesus.) Otherwise, there is some idea of competition - mostly because they find it difficult that Orthodoxy exists (and, not claiming to be a 'Gentile church'.) The Messianic/Hebraist community was overjoyed by the article that started this thread - that's how I found out about it myself (triumphal FWD of the article several times from Messianic friends and family.)

As for Zionism in American Christianity - that began with those sects who embraced Dispensationalist theology. It has become more mainstream due to televangelism and political association through the Evangelical wing of the Republican party.

My parents are Evangelical Republicans - they were pretty much apolitical before the 1970s (my father's folk being un-Reconstructed, my mother's folk considering politics the realm of the Evil One and thus not proper for Plain Folk.) During that decade there was a change - the Dispensationalist teaching, and the 1967 war brought a fervent expectation of rapture, and of the need to return Jewish people to Israel to bring about the Second Coming. Thus, many Evangelicals helped Reagan get elected, made Pro-Life part of the GOP plank, etc. Typically, the GOP before the Evangelicals joined was very Orientalist due to corporate connections in the oil industry. There still is some internal stress in the GOP due to this tension between 'Evangelical' and 'Old Republican'. There are also several other wings to the GOP (as in the Democrat party) that don't hold the issue in much importance at all. Often loyalty to the party is more important than personal conviction, family tradition, or other concerns. (Me, I'm outside of all that.)
 

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Ebor, I must say that I am of the same opinion with Amdetsion; you are being so argumentative and 'nit-picky' that it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with you. Never-the-less, I will attempt it for the sake of Christian charity. Using Aristibule's post (which BTW was brilliant), let's work through this together.

Aristibule said:
To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
By our virtue of being Christians, Ebor, we are anti-Judaic. That is, we are against the Judaic theology. Christianity and Judaism do indeed share a common thread, but this in no way implies that we can agree with one another on points of theology. The two are and always will be mutually exclusive. Likewise, by virtue of being Christians, we are pro-Jew (again, I am using Aristibule's terminology). We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with. And I might add that the Jewish people are made in the same image and likeness of God as a Christian. And BTW, the word 'anti-semitic' is a Zionist word concocted by the Zionist facists to help them in their efforts to continuously displace and subjugate the Palestinians, who are ALSO semitic people (since you have a keen interest in historical accuracy).

I had a little reservation in saying the Jews probably aren't personably responsible for Christ's crucifixion, but I based my wording on the following Bible verse: "And after Pilate saw that nothing was to be of use, but rather that an uproar was taking place, he took water and washed off his hands for himself before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of the blood of this just One; ye shall see to it.' And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and our children.'" St. Matthew 27:24,25  Now before you get worked up, this verse IS NOT EVER to be used to justify violence against the Jews. But it does say a lot doesn't it Ebor? I should have added that we all participate in the crucifixion when we deny Jesus by giving in to our passions by sinning.

Ebor said:
By the tenets of serious Judaism to say that one is the Son of God would be blasphemous.  That is not per se against Christianity,
Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.

Ebor said:
It's not easy for Human Beings to just "abandon" their religion and customs and beliefs and habits much of the time.  Why should they?
It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew. What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death. I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason, but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others. 

Ebor said:
  I allowed myself to get pulled in when the thread turned to statements about other people and remarks about them.
 I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.

sincerely :D  


 
 

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sdcheung said:
Crazies.
all under one-term of Christian Zionists.
see also http://www.cufi.org
It's absolutely disgusting to hear and see this kind of rubbish being propagated as Christianity! But then again, what do you expect from 'pastor' Hagee-berg?!

macedonia74 said:
You do understand just how much of US International Policy is based upon this? Or perhaps it's not?
There's no question that it is. AIPAC (American Israel Political Action Committee) is one of THE most powerful and influential of all the lobbies.
 

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Amdetsion said:
I am sorry but you are being a bit argumenative.
I am asking for clarification of what you are trying to say and what you mean by "responsible".  How is asking questions "argumentative" please?

You ahve disected my post to pieces. When read in this way you can not possibly undertsand what I am saying. I read your disected version and I do not undertsand what I was saying either in this concocted disection.
I was looking at specific things that you wrote and asking how you knew some things that you asserted.  "Concocted"  My apologies, but I was trying to look at seperate points and claims.

You missed my point by leagues.
Could you please state the point you were trying to say in other words?  I am trying to understand what you mean. 

I bieleve you are making points that are fair from an open, liberal, contemporary perspective not strictly based on orthodox terms.

My point is regarding ancient Christian teachings (orthodoxy).

I am not allowing room for "modern" thinking or view point. This is probably why you could not understand what I described as the 'original sins of Adam'.
By the Fall of Adam and Eve all of humankind are subject to sin and evil and death. By disobedience to God all things are 'broken'.  The actions of 2 resulted in this being part of human behaviour through the decendents.

But you in 2007 did not do anything to cause an ancestor 1000 years ago to sin, you are not "responsible" for his/her deeds.  That is what I am trying to get across with what the meaning of "responsible" is and what you meant when you used the word.

The Orthodox Church teaches that WE are born with the original sin of Adam (that includes you and everybody you know).

This is the basis of why we (all people) need the Messiah..."the Christ". If we all DID NOT inheret the original sin than we are thus sinless. The Original sin is the root of all sin.

Again without the root than NO sin. Christ is the only person to come through the womb and into the world at DID NOT have the originally sin. He was born sinless, the son of God.
Indeed, this is what is taught by Christianity and I understand, follow and believe it.  Perhaps you do not understand some of what I am writing... My apologies if I am unclear to your reading. 

Just because people clain they are "christian" does not make them true followers or members of the true church. The people who totured Arabs for the long sad period of barbarism known as the crusade were not followers of Christ at all for example. These were money men, power brokers, profiteers, pirates. Most people do not know that these strange "cross bearing" people killed with lust the Holy Christians first (the orthodox) during their 100 or so year romp in the holy land. These people are kindly (PROUDLY) called "Christians" by thier cohorts and stand bys. Shame!

Those people were the hopeless and the sorriful. The misguided masses. They left a stink on the earth, a stain of great size that is the trademark of of western imperialism and greed which to this day continues encourges outrage and violence. The Orthodox Church does not include in its history these people and thier actions. Thus the true Church has no "crusade" history but we are still subject to the fallout.
Pardon me, but you seem to be saying that noone who belonged to the EO part of Christendom was ever guilty of brutality or cruelty or oppression.  The treatment of the Bulgars under the reign of Basil II is not pretty reading.  There are many cases of pogroms against Jewish persons in Russia.  The Emperors and Empresses of Constantinople in many cases were hardly pacifists or forgiving in their dealings with others who also wanted power.  If such things were not included in the history, then it is not telling the truth, but in fact, such incidents and persons *are* in the history.

All of humanity is given to sins of various kinds. Perhaps we agree on more things then you seem to think...

With respect,

Ebor
 

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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
Ebor, I must say that I am of the same opinion with Amdetsion; you are being so argumentative and 'nit-picky' that it is nearly impossible to have a conversation with you.
It is interesting that asking questions for clarification and pointing out that other people have their own view points and ideas on things is called "argumentative".  One wonders if the mere fact of not accepting some unsupported assertions and opinions is counted as "arguing". However, one might prefer to address the subject points and not any possible personal character flaws.  :)

Never-the-less, I will attempt it for the sake of Christian charity. Using Aristibule's post (which BTW was brilliant), let's work through this together.

We are compelled and commanded to love everyone, including those we disagree with.
"Compelled"? We have been created with Free Will and while we have the commandments of Jesus "Love your neighbor as yourself" we are free to not follow them if we so choose.  God does not force us to do things, but we may submit to His words.


and the actual ways that such love is shown and acted upon are quite important, I submit.  Just to clarify your other point in that paragraph, I am quite clear that the Semitic peoples include other groups besides those who are Jewish in ethnicity. 

I had a little reservation in saying the Jews probably aren't personably responsible for Christ's crucifixion, but I based my wording on the following Bible verse: "And after Pilate saw that nothing was to be of use, but rather that an uproar was taking place, he took water and washed off his hands for himself before the crowd, saying, 'I am innocent of the blood of this just One; ye shall see to it.' And all the people answered and said, 'His blood be on us and our children.'" St. Matthew 27:24,25  Now before you get worked up, this verse IS NOT EVER to be used to justify violence against the Jews. But it does say a lot doesn't it Ebor?
Indeed, it says that one crowd of people in one city said that.  Should the words of one small portion of an ethnic or religious group then pertain to *all* people who belong to it both at that time and in the future generations unborn?  Would one like that applied to ones own faith, Church, ethnic group etc?  And yet such a verse has in the past been used to, as you wrote, "justify violence against" Jewish people.

I am not, btw, "worked up" just because I have other ideas to submit for consideration. :)

I should have added that we all participate in the crucifixion when we deny Jesus by giving in to our passions by sinning.
Indeed.

 Are you really serious? That's like saying "By the tenets of serious Klu Klux Klan to say that black people are really great would be blasphemous. That is not per se against the NAACP." Judaism is, per se, against Christianity.
Excuse me, but there is a vast difference between a religious body that has been around for millenia and (according to their own and Christian beliefs) were directed by God and given his Word and Scriptures)  and a group such as the KKK. (and I am aware of both the early years of the KKK under Nathan Bedford Forrest and the later horrors that occurred).

If one follows only the Old Testament, then there is no place for any human to claim to be the Son of God.  Believing Jews do not accept the New Testament.  Judaism is different from Christianity.  You say that it is "against" because it does not accept it. 

It can be helpful to try and think of how other people that one may disagree with might have the same kind of motives and reasons for what they do.   

It's not easy, no. When I realized that Islam was wrong and that I no longer believed, I was scared to death. I had been Muslim for sooo long, it was all I knew.
May one ask if you were born into a muslim family?  If you prefer to not answer, I apolgize for the question.

What now? Whom do I pray to? Is there really any one to pray to? What is true? The pressures were legion. While wondering where I belonged, there were other considerations such as my marriage (which sadly ended), and my physical safety. I remembered reading just months earlier of another person in AZ who left Islam. A fanatic stabbed him to death.
I have read of such cases as well as how converts to Christianity or Christians themselves are sometimes treated in muslim countries.  It is a very sorry thing.

I know all about how hard a transistion is Ebor, but your question, 'why should they' strikes me rather curious. I think Christ dying for us is a pretty good reason
But a believing Jewish person does not believe that Our Lord died for all of humanity any more then a devout Muslim would. They would believe that He was just a man who died.

but the burden is on Christians to teach, not beat, the truth into others. 
Indeed, and that gets back to the *how* and *what* of such teaching.  And it's hard to convince someone after many centuries of historical violence. 

 I think you were actually compelled to get involved when you read the words 'anti-semitic' because, it seems, you've chosen to be hyper-sensitive to the issue. When I posted my comments, I thought I was speaking to an Orthodox audience who would not need endless explanations. Without an understanding of the teachings of Orthodoxy, Ebor, you will continually find yourself confused about what we're saying.
Well, no, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.  It was not the words "anti-semitic" which is, after all in the thread title. Nor am I "hyper-sensitive" to the issue, unless the root issue is not understanding that people who do not agree with oneself or are like ones own group/faith are still Human Beings whom God created and made in His image and should be treated as we ourselves would want to be treated. (Golden Rule and all that,  :) )

Some of the posts would seem to be asserting that present day people who are Jewish are somehow "responsible" for Our Lord's Crucifixion.  Or that they must be resisting becoming Christian due to some evil or stubborn refusal to join as opposed to having their own beliefs and reasons and because they are not convinced that Christianity is True.

Their history has had many evil things happen because of people who claimed to follow Jesus. How would you address a real human being, face to face, who said "My ancestors were killed, beaten, raped and driven from our homes and stolen from by Christians.  Why should I want to be part of that religion?"  If they did not accept your words or offered countering ideas, are they just being "argumentative" and "nit-picky"?  Or should their view be looked at seriously?

How do you know that I do no "understand the teachings of Orthodoxy" based on my seeking clarification of individual's posts and considering the things that they have written about other members of the Human race?  I respectfully submit that you may be making an assumption.

With Respect,

Ebor




 
 

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Aristibule said:
This might help:

Jews are people, with a culture, languages, and other properties common to an ethnicity.

Judaism is a religion with particular beliefs contrary to other religions.

Zionism is a political ideology which is a subset of 19th c. European Nationalism.

To be anti-Zionist is to be against an ideology. One can be anti-Zionist, anti-Liberal, anti-Reactionary, or anti any other kind of political ideology without hating people.

To be anti-Judaic is to be against a theology - particularly a theology that defines itself in opposition to Christianity. One can be anti-Judaic, anti-Arian, anti-Montanist, or any other kind of religious idea without hating people.

To be anti-Jewish is to be against people: individuals, families, etc. Like hating Blacks, Russians, Germans, Anglos, Native Americans, being anti-Jewish is racism. This is historically what anti-Semitism was; hatred and mistrust of Jews, *even if* they were your compatriots and co-religionists. Noting - a Jew can be of any religion, or any political ideology or affiliation. There are, of course, Orthodox Christian Jews (and always have been), and anti-Zionist Jews - that is not even to consider them anti-Semitic. But, one has crossed the line to anti-Semitism if they fear, hate, or suspect someone just for Jewish ancestry.
Thank you for taking the time!
 
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