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Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Ebor said:
 
You say that it is "against" because it does not accept it.
Not I, but Holy Scripture. 

 
Ebor said:
May one ask if you were born into a muslim family?  If you prefer to not answer, I apolgize for the question.
No, I wasn't. And no apology needed. :D

Ebor said:
But a believing Jewish person does not believe that Our Lord died for all of humanity any more then a devout Muslim would.
True, but the question asked was 'why should they' convert.

Ebor said:
Well, no, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect.  It was not the words "anti-semitic" which is, after all in the thread title.
That's what I was referring to.

Ebor said:
Or that they must be resisting becoming Christian due to some evil or stubborn refusal to join as opposed to having their own beliefs and reasons and because they are not convinced that Christianity is True.
I think 'stubborness' is probably the right word. Pride is a condition of the Fall, and as such, contributes a lot to our not wanting to admit we may be wrong.

Ebor said:
Their history has had many evil things happen because of people who claimed to follow Jesus. How would you address a real human being, face to face, who said "My ancestors were killed, beaten, raped and driven from our homes and stolen from by Christians.  Why should I want to be part of that religion?"  If they did not accept your words or offered countering ideas, are they just being "argumentative" and "nit-picky"?
Great question. I would try and point out the many Christians who tried to live their religion. There are millions of Christians who did/do not believe the lie that Jews are evil (the examples are too numerous to bring up here). I would also talk about how the Fall has introduced all sorts of frailties, such as racism and xenophobia, that are not compatible with Christianity but never-the-less are real problems that Christians struggle with. Conversely, I cannot look at terrorist examples from the Zionists and conclude that that's what Judaism is. And as for the 'argumentative' question, the answer is, "It depends". 

I think, for the most part Ebor, we may be saying the same things, just from different angles. I sincerely apologize if my comments rubbed you the wrong way. I'm from a part of the country where publicly arguing is considered extremely distasteful. Never-the-less, I accept that I could've been wrong in my assessment that you were being argumentative.  ;)

Gabriel





 

 

Ebor

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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
No, I wasn't. And no apology needed. :D
So you are familiar with the idea of coming to believe the tenets of a religion.  May one ask if you came from any kind of a religious background before your conversion to Islam?  Since you have now come to Christianity how were you eventually convinced, if one may ask?  You did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God and the Second Person of the Trinity was True when you were a muslim. 

True, but the question asked was 'why should they' convert.
For a Christian believer the reason that Our Lord died for all of humanity is True.  But for one who does not believe, for a devout Jew or Muslin just saying that He did is not a "reason to convert" but a statement of belief on the part of the other person.  And that is not "proof" or "Truth" as far as they are concerned.

Muslims believe that Muhammed was The Prophet and his words in Quran and Hadith are the way to believe.  But I, as a Christian, do not believe that.  Telling me that I should become a Muslim because Muhammed said so is not going to convince me.  Is that "stubborness"?  No, I don't think so.

I think 'stubborness' is probably the right word. Pride is a condition of the Fall, and as such, contributes a lot to our not wanting to admit we may be wrong.
A devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist does not think that they *are* wrong by following their religion.  They believe that they are following the right way so there is nothing to "admit".  How many years were you a practicing Muslim?  If in those years a Christian came to you and said "Jesus died for you.  Muhammed was wrong" would you have just accepted it with a kind of "Wow, I should become a Christian because you said that"? How would you react if they said "You're just being stubborn because you aren't agreeing with me about Jesus when  you know that I'm right and have the Truth and you don't"? 

Empathy to other human beings and trying to understand that they often have similar feelings and thought processes as oneself can be a very helpful thing to remember. 

Great question. I would try and point out the many Christians who tried to live their religion. There are millions of Christians who did/do not believe the lie that Jews are evil (the examples are too numerous to bring up here).
And if anecdotal evidence didn't work?  Believing is one thing, actions are another.  You say the examples are too numerous to bring up?  Would you give a few that you have in mind please to back up your assertion and as an example of what you would say to a real human to try and convince them?

I would also talk about how the Fall has introduced all sorts of frailties, such as racism and xenophobia, that are not compatible with Christianity but never-the-less are real problems that Christians struggle with. Conversely, I cannot look at terrorist examples from the Zionists and conclude that that's what Judaism is.
Yet there are those who use such examples to tar all Jewish people and Judaism as Evil, Conspiratorial and devoted to taking over the world.  (I've seen far too many writings and sites with that attitude as well as some wild inaccuracies not to say out-right errors.  The loathsome "Protocols" is still invoked in places both Chistian and Muslim for example and they are a lie. 

And in using the Fall, you are using the Old Testament which is the Jewish Scripture.  A devout Jew would know about the Creation and Fall and might have other ideas then yours on it from their religious belief and studies. 

And as for the 'argumentative' question, the answer is, "It depends". 

I think, for the most part Ebor, we may be saying the same things, just from different angles. I sincerely apologize if my comments rubbed you the wrong way. I'm from a part of the country where publicly arguing is considered extremely distasteful. Never-the-less, I accept that I could've been wrong in my assessment that you were being argumentative.  ;)
There is a difference between "arguing" and forum discussions (at least some of the time.  ;))  When a person makes a post with some opinions or unsupported assertions, another poster asking for clarification of ideas or offering counter-information or ideas that may not agree with the first poster are not the same thing as a family or interpersonal fight ( which I also was raised that such was not a public thing.)  One should not expect to be agreed with without question or other ideas.  I certainly don't.  :D  But then I've been here quite a while.

Ebor

 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Ebor said:
May one ask if you came from any kind of a religious background before your conversion to Islam?  Since you have now come to Christianity how were you eventually convinced, if one may ask?
I came from a very strict and exacting religious background, which is why I left it at 17. My conversion to Christianity wasn't exactly an 'aha' moment, nor was it a 'road to Damascus' experience like St. Paul. The process was slow and winding, with lots of aversions and trips up and down dark alleys. I briefly thought I was athiest, but no matter how hard I tried, Jesus wouldn't let me stay there. When I discovered Buddhism, I thought I might be agnostic until I discovered Hinduism. Indeed it was my affection for Hindus that allowed me to be open to Eastern Orthodoxy, for Hinduism (which is really an umbrella term for a vast panapoly of beliefs), makes use of prayer beads, incense, and pictures of gurus. Each time I thought I found a home, Jesus would let the rains come to show me that it was built on sand. I don't quite remember what it was, exactly, that turned my focus on Christianity, but I seem to recall Kyriacos Markides' book Riding With the Lion in which he talks about his 'mystical' experiences with both Hinduism and Eastern Christianity. I thought, 'Eastern Christianity?' I had never heard of such a thing. I began investigating and when I read his follow up book The Mountain of Silence I knew that's where I would eventually end up. I glossed over a lot, but I trust that gives you a decent snapshot.
 
Ebor said:
For a Christian believer the reason that Our Lord died for all of humanity is True.  But for one who does not believe, for a devout Jew or Muslin just saying that He did is not a "reason to convert" but a statement of belief on the part of the other person.  And that is not "proof" or "Truth" as far as they are concerned.
Quite right, but I still wish to point out that the original question was 'why should they?' and not 'why would they?', which is actually the better question to the points you are making. I'm not trying to be difficult, but that 'katana' thing works both ways. :D

Ebor said:
Muslims believe that Muhammed was The Prophet and his words in Quran and Hadith are the way to believe.  But I, as a Christian, do not believe that.  Telling me that I should become a Muslim because Muhammed said so is not going to convince me.  Is that "stubborness"?  No, I don't think so.
The vast majority of Muslims believe this way, but not all. And the two major factions of Muslims, the Sunni and Shi'a, are almost so different today so as not to recognize the view similarities they share. 'Sunni's' get their name from 'sunna', the sayings (hadith) and behaviors of Muhammad, while 'Shi'a' get their name from "Shi'at 'Ali"- the 'party of 'Ali'. They believe that Muhammad designated 'Ali as the next successor, while the majority did not. I was part of minority known for their rejection of all hadith unless it could be varified by the Qur'an (sounds like a Protestant to me ;)), though I had countless friends from both Sunni and Shi'a (and the mystical sect known as Sufi's). But I've digressed...You're quite right again when you say that telling you 'a' is true when you believe 'x' to be true will not convince you. But I was trying to say (rather poorly I guess), that a well reasoned discussion coupled with a lifetime of examples, that is, me watching you live your faith, rather than bonking me over the head with countless theology arguments, along with prayer, is the best way to go about it. And if a person absolutely refuses to listen, then the word 'stubborn' is aptly applied.

Ebor said:
A devout Jew or Muslim or Buddhist does not think that they *are* wrong by following their religion.  They believe that they are following the right way so there is nothing to "admit".   How many years were you a practicing Muslim?  If in those years a Christian came to you and said "Jesus died for you.  Muhammed was wrong" would you have just accepted it with a kind of "Wow, I should become a Christian because you said that"? How would you react if they said "You're just being stubborn because you aren't agreeing with me about Jesus when  you know that I'm right and have the Truth and you don't"?
Well, let me answer this with a personal story. I had Christians tell me, when I was Muslim, that Muhammad copied the Qur'an from the Old Testament and then made up the rest. Of coarse, this type of approach is childish and tells me more about that Christian than it does the Muslim. Then I had Christians whom never argued with me, and never asked me the ridiculous question of 'If you died tonight...". Instead, they showed me Christ by being my friend and loving me. I can say that in my case, I was being stubborn. You're quite right to say that this isn't the norm, but at least know that it is a possibility. 
 
Ebor said:
And if anecdotal evidence didn't work?  Believing is one thing, actions are another.  You say the examples are too numerous to bring up?  Would you give a few that you have in mind please to back up your assertion and as an example of what you would say to a real human to try and convince them?
Well, just off the top of my head, I suppose the story of Oskar Schindler works very well here. I'm positive you've at least heard of 'Schindler's List' by Stephen Speilberg?

Ebor said:
Yet there are those who use such examples to tar all Jewish people and Judaism as Evil, Conspiratorial and devoted to taking over the world.  (I've seen far too many writings and sites with that attitude as well as some wild inaccuracies not to say out-right errors.  The loathsome "Protocols" is still invoked in places both Chistian and Muslim for example and they are a lie.
Well, unfortunately, there will always be these types of examples. And I would say out-right lies. I've heard of the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion', but know very little about them to comment.   

Ebor said:
And in using the Fall, you are using the Old Testament which is the Jewish Scripture.  A devout Jew would know about the Creation and Fall and might have other ideas then yours on it from their religious belief and studies.
Indeed they will. But try to convince I must. 

Ebor said:
There is a difference between "arguing" and forum discussions (at least some of the time.  ;))  When a person makes a post with some opinions or unsupported assertions, another poster asking for clarification of ideas or offering counter-information or ideas that may not agree with the first poster are not the same thing as a family or interpersonal fight ( which I also was raised that such was not a public thing.)  One should not expect to be agreed with without question or other ideas.  I certainly don't.  :D  But then I've been here quite a while.
Actually, I think you're just a stubborn person. Of coarse I'm kidding you now ;). I must say that while I don't disagree with you here, when I read your tag line 'the katana of reasoned discussion' or something like that, I thought "This guy is nothing but an argumentative blow-hard". I don't see that as necessarily so now, and I don't wanna tell you what to call yourself, but maybe a slightly better tag line would be "Come, let us reason together" found in Isaiah(?).

Respectfully,

Gabriel
 

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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
Doh! I did it again with those dang quote tags... sheesh, such a clumsy knot-head sometimes. ::)
If you want to spend a little time doing it, you can go back into your post and edit the quote tags the way you want them, but I think you have only a 24-hour window of opportunity to do so after you submit the post.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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PeterTheAleut said:
If you want to spend a little time doing it, you can go back into your post and edit the quote tags the way you want them, but I think you have only a 24-hour window of opportunity to do so after you submit the post.
Done. Thanks PtA :)
 

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I think what Paul says in the book of Romans sums up the Orthodox position:

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
(Rom 11:28-29 ESV)

The religion is God's enemy, but God is faithful to who He called, even when they fall into apostasy; just like when you or I sin, God is faithful, and He leaves the 99 to go and find the 1. They still have the honor in being the first-called people of God's covenants with mankind.

Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
(Rom 11:12)

(By the way, I am half Jewish, so I have a right to be biased here.)
 

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Doh! I did it again with those dang quote tags... sheesh, such a clumsy knot-head sometimes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of us do not know that the "sh..sh" word (in the above phrase) used in a previous post is a very bad phrase. Particularly for us orthodox. I only recently discovered this.

My mom (God bless her soul) always said that "you must know the words you use like you know your name" since the words you use in front of others help to represent who you are and what you are to yourself.

God bless
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Amdetsion said:
Most of us do not know that the "sh..sh" word (in the above phrase) used in a previous post is a very bad phrase. Particularly for us orthodox. I only recently discovered this.
Amdetsion,

My apology. I didn't realize it was a distasteful word. What, may I ask, is its meaning as you understand?

Gabriel
 

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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
Amdetsion,

My apology. I didn't realize it was a distasteful word. What, may I ask, is its meaning as you understand?

Gabriel
I've heard some say it's a slang variant on the name Jesus, making it very close to using Christ's name in vain, though I'm not sure that's what Amdetsion means.  (It's also quite close to another English word that makes vulgar reference to solid excrement.)
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
I've heard some say it's a slang variant on the name Jesus, making it very close to using Christ's name in vain, though I'm not sure that's what Amdetsion means.  (It's also quite close to another English word that makes vulgar reference to solid excrement.)
It is a combination of both of the above.

We live in a world filled with sick people who have carefully planted their hate for God in the most unsuspecting places. They want us all to be haters of God; even if we do not mean to be.

This particular phrase is exceptionally sick. It turns me physically ill to think of what the creator of this phrase attempts to apply with this compound phrase.

Please be careful everybody...
 

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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
I came from a very strict and exacting religious background, which is why I left it at 17. My conversion to Christianity wasn't exactly an 'aha' moment, nor was it a 'road to Damascus' experience like St. Paul. The process was slow and winding, with lots of aversions and trips up and down dark alleys. I briefly thought I was athiest, but no matter how hard I tried, Jesus wouldn't let me stay there. When I discovered Buddhism, I thought I might be agnostic until I discovered Hinduism. Indeed it was my affection for Hindus that allowed me to be open to Eastern Orthodoxy, for Hinduism (which is really an umbrella term for a vast panapoly of beliefs), makes use of prayer beads, incense, and pictures of gurus. Each time I thought I found a home, Jesus would let the rains come to show me that it was built on sand. I don't quite remember what it was, exactly, that turned my focus on Christianity, but I seem to recall Kyriacos Markides' book Riding With the Lion in which he talks about his 'mystical' experiences with both Hinduism and Eastern Christianity. I thought, 'Eastern Christianity?' I had never heard of such a thing. I began investigating and when I read his follow up book The Mountain of Silence I knew that's where I would eventually end up. I glossed over a lot, but I trust that gives you a decent snapshot.
Thank you for this account.  May one ask where in this was your Muslim period and how long it lasted?  Was your  "very strict and exacting religious background" a Christian one?  I'm just trying to understand your explorations as it were.  Thank you.

Quite right, but I still wish to point out that the original question was 'why should they?' and not 'why would they?', which is actually the better question to the points you are making. I'm not trying to be difficult, but that 'katana' thing works both ways. :D
Well, here I think that "should" is the right word.  Since from your previous posts you think that Jewish people and Muslim people *ought* to become Christian (and there by deny/drop the beliefs they presently hold.)  it is, in effect, "You should become Christian."  and any reasons given are the "Why should they do that" support.  If I tell one of my children that they should do something that I believe is a good thing and they don't agree they might ask "why should I" which is different from "would".  If your reasons or "proofs" or examples do not convince another person, they are quite understandably not going to do what *you* think they ought to do.

Thank you for the overview of some of the parts of Islam.  I know them, but other readers here may not.

You're quite right again when you say that telling you 'a' is true when you believe 'x' to be true will not convince you. But I was trying to say (rather poorly I guess), that a well reasoned discussion coupled with a lifetime of examples, that is, me watching you live your faith, rather than bonking me over the head with countless theology arguments, along with prayer, is the best way to go about it. And if a person absolutely refuses to listen, then the word 'stubborn' is aptly applied.
A "lifetime of examples"?  There are century upon century of bad examples, and plenty of the same thing happening even today.  (the "Protocols", "Jewish Conspiracies", and more).  Why should one person (who they likely have not known for a "lifetime" but months or years if that) think that *they* can counter that.  Also, the other person is not watching "you live your faith" but seeing only bits of it when you interact with them.  A Christian can be charitable and another can be uncharitable.  You might say that the second person is not *really* being a Christian, but that is probably not what the non-Christian sees. 

Well, let me answer this with a personal story. I had Christians tell me, when I was Muslim, that Muhammad copied the Qur'an from the Old Testament and then made up the rest. Of coarse, this type of approach is childish and tells me more about that Christian than it does the Muslim. Then I had Christians whom never argued with me, and never asked me the ridiculous question of 'If you died tonight...". Instead, they showed me Christ by being my friend and loving me. I can say that in my case, I was being stubborn. You're quite right to say that this isn't the norm, but at least know that it is a possibility. 
And I acknowledge that that is your possibility.  But applying *your* views to myriad other Human Beings is not taking their individual beliefs and behaviours into account. You do not know what they have experienced, what their interactions with Christians have been, how they were treated.  You being nice to another person for some hours every so often may not be enough to counter years of being harassed or called "Christ-killer" or other epithets or the knowledge that one's ancestors were murdered by those who also called themselves Christian.  

Well, just off the top of my head, I suppose the story of Oskar Schindler works very well here. I'm positive you've at least heard of 'Schindler's List' by Stephen Speilberg?
Yes, I know of that movie as well as some of the real Oskar Schindler.  I also know of the Garden of the Righteous and the "Righteous among the Nations" at Yad Vashem in Israel.  These are persons who are recognized by Jews as those who helped. 
http://www1.yadvashem.org/righteous/temp_righteous/temp_index_recently_honored.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/righteous.html

Some died to help Jewish people.  The actions of one person helps and those of another harm.  They don't somehow "cancel" each other.  The memories, the knowledge, the wounds or hope are still part of a person's life.
Maybe some good examples would help "convince" but maybe not. 

Indeed they will. But try to convince I must. 
But will you also see each person that you seek to convince/convert as just as much of a human being as you are?  And, I'm not trying to be difficult here, this is a serious question to get some thought:  Why do you want to convince them?  I'm not being argumentative.  Sometimes people do things that they may not have a good answer to the "why".  Why did you become a muslim? You said you left your early upbringing at 17.  Why?  Why did you then become Christian?  Were you rejecting one thing or drawn to something else?  Why do you want others be be Christian?  To have more in your group?  Because you know what's best?  Understanding the reasons behind actions can be very helpful.

Actually, I think you're just a stubborn person. Of coarse I'm kidding you now ;). I must say that while I don't disagree with you here, when I read your tag line 'the katana of reasoned discussion' or something like that, I thought "This guy is nothing but an argumentative blow-hard".
<insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow>  ;)  Being an "argumentative blow-hard" is not *reasoned* though.  It would seem that you perhaps made an ummm assumption based on my not agreeing with you.  It can be quite reasoned to not accept another persons opinions and unsupported assertions without question.

:)  That part of my sig is a handle that I got from the name generator of the "Unitarian Jihad" a good while ago.  This is a humourous idea, in which such names as "Broadsword of Warm Humanitarianism" and "Neutron Bomb of Courteous Debate" and "Trebuchet of Compassion" are taken by "followers". See here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL

Due to my interest in Japan as well as my habit of logic and support of points, I found the "handle" that came up for me fitting, shall we say.  ;D (I'm not a Vulcan.  I just play one on the 'Net.)

I don't see that as necessarily so now, and I don't wanna tell you what to call yourself, but maybe a slightly better tag line would be "Come, let us reason together" found in Isaiah(?).
A good passage to be sure as long as "reasoning together" is not taken to be automatic agreement or unchalleged assertions.

Ebor
 

scamandrius

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Now the Anti-Defamation League is offering their $.02.  Notice how the article refers to Bishop Jessep of the Ukranian Autocephalous Orthodox Church.  I wonder if the ADL will provide statistics about how many Jews were insulted or lynched because some Orthodox got worked up on Great and Holy Friday and took it out on them. 

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/5069_31.htm

ADL Urges Orthodox Christian Churches To Excise Anti-Semitism From Liturgy


New York, NY, June 6, 2007 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is urging the world's Orthodox Christian leaders to support a Christian proposal to excise ancient anti-Semitic passages from their liturgy.

ADL cited a declaration by an independent group of Orthodox Christian priests and intellectuals who are calling for their churches to reject centuries-old negative theological positions toward Jews and Judaism, including positions on the State of Israel.  The group represents five different Orthodox churches, including Greek, Ukrainian, Russian, Georgian and Ecumenical Orthodox Churches. Some signed the declaration in defiance of their church leadership, according to news reports.

"We call on Orthodox Christian leaders to begin the process now to remove anti-Semitic passages from its liturgy," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "This effort is long overdue.  Untold numbers of Jews have suffered throughout the centuries, and today, in some countries where these churches are prominent, Jews are confronted by growing anti-Semitism, because of the failure to address this."

Eric J. Greenberg, ADL Associate Director of Interfaith Affairs, noted that some Orthodox liturgy still refer to Jews as Christ-killers, and that some Easter services include calls for revenge against Jews. He noted that the Roman Catholic Church and several Protestant churches have removed anti-Semitic passages from its liturgy, and that the Vatican repudiated the deicide charge against the Jewish people in 1965.

"We commend the courageous priests and academics who seek to rid their churches of the poison of anti-Semitism," Greenberg said. "Support of this declaration by church leaders would help build a more positive interfaith dialogue between Orthodox Christians and Jews, and help increase religious respect around the world."

Bishop Paul Peter Jesep, U.S. Director of Public Affairs for the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church Diaspora, said he supports the priests' campaign as essential to the future of the Orthodox Church.

"The Church has not done enough to address anti-Semitism," Jesep said, speaking in his individual capacity. "The Liturgy must be modified so that it is brought closer to the teachings of Christ."

The ten-page declaration endorses the eternal connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel, and calls for the repudiation of replacement theology, which erroneously contends that God's covenant with the Jewish people is not eternal. "It is time that we called anti-Semitism a grave sin against God and man," the declaration said. 




The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry
 

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^^ scary stuff in that article there.. ::)  When they change our liturgy, then they can stop with all the God's chosen people nonsense we constantly here from them...
 

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As if it wouldn't be more important to protest the genocide in Darfur.... ?  One would think that a heroic, and logical result from ethnicities/races that have been brutally persecuted in the past would be to stick up for, protest, and place emphasis on present genocide and brutality.

Unfortunately, for the ADL it's more important to relive the past than to work in the present in order to better the future ...
 

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Nacho said:
^^ scary stuff in that article there.. ::)  When they change our liturgy, then they can stop with all the God's chosen people nonsense we constantly here from them...
Obviously they haven't gotten the message about New Jerusalem yet.
 

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Obviously they haven't gotten the message about New Jerusalem yet.
Obviously not.... ;D Maybe someone should tell the ADL that, or would that be considered a hate crime?  ::)
 

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Are we, as Orthodox Christians, to allow "political correctness" to creep into the Church? I think not. Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also? What needs to be addressed is the harassment and anti-Christian behavior not only in the Holy Land , but throughout the Middle East, Kosovo and Turkey. One must realize that certain Jewish leaders and organizations use the term "anti-semitic" much too conveniently.

It is quite sad that this particular person feels there exists anti-semitic imagery in Orthodoxy, when in reality this is not the real case.
 

greekischristian

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vasily said:
Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also?
Not a bad idea, especially with regard to the Koran (though the Talmud is pretty bad too), it might help to smooth out some things in the middle east.
 

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I'm Jewish, about to join the Orthodox Church and I don't have any problem with "antisemitic" imagery, canons, etc One reason I felt drawn to the OC is because it does not change to fit the whims or PCness of the times.

Jews went after the RCC at Vatican II to change their liturgy to suit their wishes. What I'd like to know is when Orthodox Jews (what I was raised, btw) will change the Talmudic writings to remove anti-Gentile and anti-Christian references. My guess? When pigs fly.
 

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vasily said:
Are we, as Orthodox Christians, to allow "political correctness" to creep into the Church? I think not. Should we insist that the Jewish Talmud and the Koran be changed for political correctness also? What needs to be addressed is the harassment and anti-Christian behavior not only in the Holy Land , but throughout the Middle East, Kosovo and Turkey. One must realize that certain Jewish leaders and organizations use the term "anti-semitic" much too conveniently.

It is quite sad that this particular person feels there exists anti-semitic imagery in Orthodoxy, when in reality this is not the real case.
I don't see any evidence of "Political Correctness" in the canonical Orthodox Churches.  This topic dates back to 2007 and looking back I do not see any evidence of canonical Orthodox Church leaders being involved.
 

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Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
 
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can i put my two cents in i am not a jew but my great grandfather was making my  ancestors  jewsh  and i have been eastern  orthodox christian  for 24 years   the other 21 years  old catholic   roman  catholic  and i   understand  those who think it sounds anti semite in those texts and hymms  in the liturgy  but even the apostles  who were jews and who  wrote the   books of the bible by the inspriration of the holy spririt put in verses that have  very  un favorable  towards their own people the jews  should we edict any verses  in the bible that jews deem  anti semite  like the verse which says  when  pontuis pilate asked the crowd what he should do to this man being jesus    and the jews replied and  said in one voice  crucrify crucify him let his blood be upon on childrens  children  that was  edited out of the movie  the passion of the christ   they did not show the  english subtitled in that part of the movie  you only heard the  aramanic  translation  of it  should  we do that in the readings  during lent  any verses which  have a negative light  on jews should the reader   quickly edit them out of the service  i do not think so  i am not offended by these verses and i do not see why anyone  else would be they are historicaly accurate  text in the bible and should not be  taken out because of a few  bleeding heart  liberals  think  the orthodox  church should  be  pc  on everthing in our services
 

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josephgodleski1966 said:
can i put my two cents in i am not a jew but my great grandfather was making my  ancestors  jewsh  and i have been eastern  orthodox christian  for 24 years   the other 21 years  old catholic   roman  catholic  and i   understand  those who think it sounds anti semite in those texts and hymms  in the liturgy  but even the apostles  who were jews and who  wrote the   books of the bible by the inspriration of the holy spririt put in verses that have  very  un favorable  towards their own people the jews  should we edict any verses  in the bible that jews deem  anti semite  like the verse which says  when  pontuis pilate asked the crowd what he should do to this man being jesus    and the jews replied and  said in one voice  crucrify crucify him let his blood be upon on childrens  children  that was  edited out of the movie  the passion of the christ   they did not show the  english subtitled in that part of the movie  you only heard the  aramanic  translation  of it  should  we do that in the readings  during lent  any verses which  have a negative light  on jews should the reader   quickly edit them out of the service  i do not think so  i am not offended by these verses and i do not see why anyone  else would be they are historicaly accurate  text in the bible and should not be  taken out because of a few  bleeding heart  liberals  think  the orthodox  church should  be  pc  on everthing in our services

Although written by a traditional Roman Catholic before Vatican II, I find this book to be unsurpassed when it comes to explaining WHY so many Jews and organized Jewish groups try to change each Christian church, one by one, to suit their beliefs. Once you have read this book, you won't have any more question as to the "why" of all this.

As I said, its by a RC priest but it answers everything. "The Kingship of Christ and the Conversion of the Jewish Nation" by Fr Denis Fahey C.Ss. P.,  c 1953, available inexpensively from http://store.catholicism.org/the-kingship-of-christ-and-the-conversion-of-the-jewish-nation.html  or http://www.omnicbc.com  Just do a search for the title or the author.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
There are some elements that are anti-semitic (a perfect example is St. Ambrose upbraiding Theodosios for requiring restitution for destroying a synagogue), but yes, stating plainly that we are not Jews (though some of us are Hebrews  ;D) and the Jews got it wrong is not anti-semitic.
 

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ialmisry said:
88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
There are some elements that are anti-semitic (a perfect example is St. Ambrose upbraiding Theodosios for requiring restitution for destroying a synagogue), but yes, stating plainly that we are not Jews (though some of us are Hebrews  ;D) and the Jews got it wrong is not anti-semitic.
I don't recall that event being in the liturgical service for St. Ambrose.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
 

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Dear Peter the Aleut,

May you have a Joyous Paskha!

PeterTheAleut said:
Supersessionist Theology (pejoratively known as Replacement Theology) is not something foreign to our Tradition.  In fact, the theology is based on the biblical doctrine of the Apostle Paul (see Romans 9:1-11:36), not to mention the Prophets whom St. Paul quotes effusively and even some words of Christ Himself.  Even so, St. Paul was willing to give his own life and be accursed if only it would bring his own Jewish people to salvation in Christ Jesus, their Messiah.
I found your writing on this topic to be helpful, Peter. In particular, you pointed to Romans 9-11, which portrays God's people- Israel and the Church- as a community into which non-Jews are grafted and to which it is hoped those who left will return.

I would like to share with you my research on Orthodox views on this topic, which you may find helpful.

Take care.
 

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Here's an older article by a Russian Orthodox priest of Jewish descent on the question of Judaism and the Russian Orthodox Church

It might prove interesting and informative: http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/jewish_1.html
 

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Asteriktos said:
I guess when you start with things in your history like, say, canons saying not to go to Jewish doctors, or your most famous and beloved homilist--and also the primary author of your liturgy--saying that he hates the Jews (whether rhetorically or not), you've already dug yourself a hole as far as relations with Jews go. ;)
"may HIS blood be on us and our children".  Was that ever said at the Crucifiction? 
 

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Asteriktos said:
88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
 

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I hope the Orthodox Church does not give into this PC nonsense.  Saying no to ADL and other like minded groups is not anti-Semitic in the least, its about keeping one's religious integrity.

And seriously, as someone above mentioned, Christians should call on Jews to remove all the anti-Gentile/anti-Christian venom and vitriol found in the Talmud.  Not to mention all the horrific things the Talmud says about Jesus and the Virgin Mary.

Let's see how the ADL and co would react then.
 

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As one who has struggled with some of the hymnography that can be perceived as anti-Semitic (especially during the service of the Twelve Passion Gospels), here is something that may be of interest from Archpriest Valerian Krechetov, a priest in Russia:

"The divine services of Holy Week call on one to have compassion and sympathy for the Savior.

On the first three days one is supposed to reread all four Gospels as a reminder that the Lord created us, but that we crucified Him by our sins. And although this appears to be addressed to the Jews of that time, it relates to everyone who has crucified Christ by his sins."

Source: http://www.pravmir.com/how-should-we-spend-holy-week/
 

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JoeS2 said:
Asteriktos said:
88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
 

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Gunnarr said:
JoeS2 said:
Asteriktos said:
88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
???
 

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JoeS2 said:
Asteriktos said:
88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
The weren't against Jewish people, either.
 

Shanghaiski

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Cyrillic said:
Gunnarr said:
JoeS2 said:
Asteriktos said:
88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
???
Sarcasm addressing the poster. While the holy fathers aren't infallible, it would be an act of heinous impiety for us to judge them. That, and whenever someone says "Oh, the Holy Fathers weren't infallible," at least on the Internet, it generally signals that some weird idea has proceeded or will follow that statement.
 

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Shanghaiski said:
Sarcasm addressing the poster. While the holy fathers aren't infallible, it would be an act of heinous impiety for us to judge them. That, and whenever someone says "Oh, the Holy Fathers weren't infallible," at least on the Internet, it generally signals that some weird idea has proceeded or will follow that statement.
Does it singal that in this case?
 

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What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?
 
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