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Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy

augustin717

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^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
 

Alpo

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augustin717 said:
I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.
Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?
 

Santagranddad

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Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.
 

Schultz

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Santagranddad said:
Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.
But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"
 

Santagranddad

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Schultz said:
Santagranddad said:
Editing or re-writing parts of our liturgical texts on account of perceived 'Jew hating' sentiments strikes me as a folly and surely not in accord with the mind of the Church and the Church Fathers, albeit in line with thinking that originates from outside the Church. I would never have the presumption to seek to have edited Hebrew texts or prayer books, even if as an Orthodox Christian I were to find things written which might offend therein.

Rather than have the presumption to want edited certain liturgical texts I would prefer to better know and understand the texts, and hopefully spiritually profit from them. What does concern me is the notion that we little strugglers are in any position to criticise the likes of Saint John Chrysostom in the first place. How the Devil must chortle as we so presume.
But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"
I don't look at it with hindsight but humility, seeking rather to be in tune with the mind of Church.
 

Cyrillic

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Schultz said:
But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"
You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
 

stanley123

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augustin717 said:
^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
Looking at this from a different angle, should the passages thought to be uncomplimentary to Jesus and Mary be removed from the Talmud?
 

Alpo

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Cyrillic said:
What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?
Nothing.
 

orthonorm

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rakovsky said:
Dear Peter the Aleut,

May you have a Joyous Paskha!

PeterTheAleut said:
Supersessionist Theology (pejoratively known as Replacement Theology) is not something foreign to our Tradition.  In fact, the theology is based on the biblical doctrine of the Apostle Paul (see Romans 9:1-11:36), not to mention the Prophets whom St. Paul quotes effusively and even some words of Christ Himself.  Even so, St. Paul was willing to give his own life and be accursed if only it would bring his own Jewish people to salvation in Christ Jesus, their Messiah.
I found your writing on this topic to be helpful, Peter. In particular, you pointed to Romans 9-11, which portrays God's people- Israel and the Church- as a community into which non-Jews are grafted and to which it is hoped those who left will return.

I would like to share with you my research on Orthodox views on this topic, which you may find helpful.

Take care.
If you are going to reresurrect a thread from 2007 the most awesome way to do it is to offer a reply including content from 2003.

Well done. Seriously, I hope to read your essay later.
 

augustin717

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stanley123 said:
augustin717 said:
^Not the liturgy itself, but the other offices have some stuff that can come across as anti-semitic. I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday. And now a cottage industry sprung from that where some convents and monasteries or just individuals with a printing press or a printer, publish the old "unreformed" texts. And in some some places I hear, they take pride in singing the old texts, I gather from the internet.
Looking at this from a different angle, should the passages thought to be uncomplimentary to Jesus and Mary be removed from the Talmud?
I don't really. care really one way or the other. The impact these relatively obscure liturgical texts have on how people think about Jews is probably zero anyways. 
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Santagranddad said:
Alpo said:
Cyrillic said:
What exactly is antisemetic about the liturgy?
Nothing.
Amen
Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples.  

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews.  
 

mike

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GabrieltheCelt said:
Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples. 

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews. 
So smart and witty....
 

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Gunnarr said:
JoeS2 said:
Asteriktos said:
88Devin12 said:
Nothing anti-semetic in any of our services... Even "let us not keep the feast like the Jews" isn't anti-semetic.

I just ignore the stupid people who call us, or St. John Chrysostom, or other of our holy saints "anti-semetic"...
Yes, yes, St. John Chrysostom saying things like "I hate the Jews" warms the soul with Christian love, doesn't it?

Wait, what?
News Flash!  Our Fathers were not infallible.....They made errors sometimes.  Most of the times they were spot on...
Yes, that is why ecumenical councils are fallible and their canons are outdated
Or not.  Maybe you don't understand how they worked.  It's ok and nothing a little research can't correct.

Orthodoxy is as antisemitic as women's volleyball.  Just because something doesn't agree or support doesn't mean it's anti-Jewish and if it does, what does that say about Judaism in regard to Christianity?  

 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Amen.  I haven't seen any negative comments about Mandeans, Akkadians, Eblaites, Chaldeans, Aramaeans, Mhallami, Ugarites, Suteans, Amorites, Ammonites, Edomites, Amalekites, Hebrews/Israelites, Samaritans, Moabites, Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Sabeans, Shebans, Ubarites, Maganites, Aksumites, or any other Semitic peoples. 

My point is that the term 'Anti-Semitic' has been created and designated as a group identity by the conniving, racist Zionists as meaning Jews and only Jews. 
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
 

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Alpo said:
augustin717 said:
I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.
Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?
What would you want them for? The edited version only lacks some stanzas, nothing new was added, nothing was re-written.

Liturgically informed people prefer the older (complete) version, because it has as many stanzas as there are verses in Psalm 118. It is also metrically better adapted to the music. People who use the "short" one completely omit the Psalm verses, which are actually much older and a constitutive part of all funeral office.

One "progressive" Romanian bishop even suggested dropping the Enkomia altogether, for the sake of "sobriety" and since it is the newest addition (apparently originating on the Holy Mountain) to the office of Great Saturday. That would be an outrage indeed, since people are so fond of it and everybody joins in when it is sung. 
 

augustin717

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Alpo said:
augustin717 said:
I know in Romania the patriarchate edited/toned down some of the more outrageous anti-jewish diatribes in the Lamentations of the Great Saturday.
Are there English translations of the new texts somewhere online?
No. The changes aren't very consistent  or even noticeable. Just some verses dropped or "Jews" replaced by "Judas".
 

LBK

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GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
 

Gorazd

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Seriously, I wonder why some people are having so much fun singing about those "evil, wicked Jews"?
 

ialmisry

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Cyrillic said:
Schultz said:
But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"
You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
Pope Paul VI?
 

Romaios

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Gorazd said:
Seriously, I wonder why some people are having so much fun singing about those "evil, wicked Jews"?
A story with all the bad-guys' bits edited out has no dramatic impact.

Can you imagine Purim without shouts of joy for Haman getting hanged? 
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
 

mike

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GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
 

LBK

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GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
You're taking your pick from the shovels in calling Michal a Pole. I know plenty of Belarussians who were born or grew up in Poland, who, in the Soviet era, would tolerate being called Russian, but God help you if you called them Polish.
 

sheenj

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GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
He may be Polish, but he's still not a Pole.
 

Schultz

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GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
 

Alpo

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Schultz said:
Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
No need to imagine. In colloquial Finnish  "jenkki" refers to all Americans irregardless of anything. You're all Yankees to me. :-*
 

LBK

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Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
Amen, my dear Schultz. To which I'd add: Call a Southerner a Yankee and see how far you get.  :eek:
 

jmbejdl

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Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
I know, I know... I was just having a little fun with the OC.Net trickster.
 

LBK

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GabrieltheCelt said:
Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
I know, I know... I was just having a little fun with the OC.Net trickster.
Very unconvincing to this Large Bald Kid.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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LBK said:
Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
Amen, my dear Schultz. To which I'd add: Call a Southerner a Yankee and see how far you get.  :eek:
That was his point.  :)
 

podkarpatska

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GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish.  
It seems you are being deliberately offensive to Michal.  Try calling a person named say, Malcolm MacDougal , born in the United Kingdom near Edinboro who speaks English and who still lives there an Englishman or British and see what kind of reaction you will receive. Oh wait, you self identify as "Gabriel the Celt" so you should get it.
 

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podkarpatska said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
It seems you are being deliberately offensive to Michal.  Try calling a person named say, Malcolm MacDougal , born in the United Kingdom near Edinboro who speaks English and who still lives there an Englishman or British and see what kind of reaction you will receive.
It would be more interesting were the contributor to try and pull that stunt with a Glaswegian. A 'Glasgow kiss' would likely follow. Very direct and very painful.
 

ialmisry

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jmbejdl said:
Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
If you don't mind me asking, what are you then?
 

orthonorm

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ialmisry said:
jmbejdl said:
Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
If you don't mind me asking, what are you then?
I thought he was Romanian for some reason.
 

ialmisry

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orthonorm said:
ialmisry said:
jmbejdl said:
Schultz said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
LBK said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
So smart and witty....
Be a good little Pole and I'll send you an 8x10 autographed picture.  ;)
You've obviously missed Michal's sig. Here it is:

Despite being a Polish citizen I am not a Pole.

Long live Belarus!
I could almost see the excitement in your eyes as you thought to yourself, "Gotcha!"  Wrong again, Large Bald Kid.  If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Only to an American.  

Imagine a European calling you a Yankee because you were born in the US, speak English, and still live in the US and you'll start to grasp the difference between Ethnicity and Nationality among Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans.
Indeed. I was born in in England, speak English (amongst other languages) and l live in England. I'm certainly not English. I have a British passport so you could say I'm British (I have British nationality) but I'd never identify that way and you could just as accurately say I was German (although, again I don't identify as such). Ethnicity does not equal nationality, and that's particularly obvious here. Almost nobody here would describe their ethnicity as British, and those that would seem somewhat confused.

James
If you don't mind me asking, what are you then?
I thought he was Romanian for some reason.
I thought that was only jure uxoris. I'm familiar with that situation.
 

Punch

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Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
 
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