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Calls for removal of "anti-Semitic" imagery in Orthodox Liturgy

JamesR

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Punch said:
Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.


Duckbear?  :laugh:
 

Shanghaiski

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JamesR said:
Punch said:
Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.


Duckbear?   :laugh:
Finally, a post illustrating the proper response to the topic.
 

Santagranddad

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Shanghaiski said:
JamesR said:
Punch said:
Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.


Duckbear?   :laugh:
Finally, a post illustrating the proper response to the topic.
Quackers.......!!!
 

stanley123

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Punch said:
Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
It is not so much a matter of logic, but more a matter of differing definitions on who is Polish, or who is Jewish, etc.
 

Cyrillic

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ialmisry said:
Cyrillic said:
Schultz said:
But it was okay for St. John Chrysostom to edit the liturgy of St. Basil?  Don't look at it with hindsight and say, "Ah, but he was a saint!"

Look at it from the POV of one of St. John's contemporaries, of whom I'm sure there was more than one who said, "HOW DARE THIS UPSTART EDIT OUR BELOVED LITURGY!"
You're certain that Constantinople in 400AD used a Cappadocian Liturgy which was revised by someone who died just twenty years earlier?

And isn't there a story about how a Pope tried to change the liturgy and was almost lynched for it?
Pope Paul VI?
No, someone in the early middle ages. I can't seem to remember his name, though.
 

Orest

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Punch said:
Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
By citizenship yes, he may hold a Polish Passport and vote in elections as a citizen of Poland but his ethnicity may not be Polish.  Even the Byzantine Empire was multinational.
 

stanley123

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Orest said:
Punch said:
Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
If Michael was born in Poland, speaks Polish, and still lives in Poland, guess what... he's Polish. 
Your logic is flawed.
Yep.  As everyone knows, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is obviously a bear.
By citizenship yes, he may hold a Polish Passport and vote in elections as a citizen of Poland but his ethnicity may not be Polish.  Even the Byzantine Empire was multinational.
How is ethnicity determined?
 

mike

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stanley123 said:
How is ethnicity determined?
You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Michał Kalina said:
stanley123 said:
How is ethnicity determined?
You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 
 

mike

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GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
stanley123 said:
How is ethnicity determined?
You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 
Do not tell me what should I be.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
stanley123 said:
How is ethnicity determined?
You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks. 
Do not tell me what should I be.
I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  A person's ethnicity does not necessarily have anything to do with who or where you were raised.  If you were raised in Zimbabwe, you would still be an ethnic Belarus, but you're culture would very likely not be.  See the difference? 
 

stanley123

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Michał Kalina said:
stanley123 said:
How is ethnicity determined?
You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
This is overly general and is subject to varying interpretations. You parents and grandparents could be from China,and have some history in China, but they are white Russians who moved to northern China. Or going way back, one member could be Chinese, and another member was black,  but the others were Russians.
 

stanley123

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GabrieltheCelt said:
I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  
Well then, what is the correct definition of ethnicity?
 

mike

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GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
GabrieltheCelt said:
Michał Kalina said:
stanley123 said:
How is ethnicity determined?
You know, you have parents, and grandparents, and neighbours, and other family members and they bring you up, and you have some history... And it happens.
You're thinking of culture which is different than ethnicity.  My wife is ethnically Korean but she was raised by her white adoptive parents, grandparents, neighbors, and other family members deep in the Ozarks.  
Do not tell me what should I be.
I'm telling you that your definition of ethnicity seems wrong.  A person's ethnicity does not necessarily have anything to do with who or where you were raised.  If you were raised in Zimbabwe, you would still be an ethnic Belarus, but you're culture would very likely not be.  See the difference?  
If I had been raised in Zimbabwe in the very same way I was I would be a Belarus. On the other hand, if I had been raised as a Zimbabwean I would be a Zimbabwean (or, more precisely, a Zibwabweanised Belarus).

stanley123 said:
This is overly general and is subject to varying interpretations.
Did I say it isn't?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
If I had been raised in Zimbabwe in the very same way I was I would be a Belarus. On the other hand, if I had been raised as a Zimbabwean I would be a Zimbabwean (or, more precisely, a Zibwabweanised Belarus).
You're still talking about culture here. Ethnicity has nothing to do with upbringing whatsoever. For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.
 

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sheenj said:
For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.
I disagree.
 

sheenj

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Michał Kalina said:
sheenj said:
For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.
I disagree.
Do you think his brown skin will disappear? Or maybe that his eyes will turn blue? Ethnicity is about genetics. Culture is about community.
 

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Schultz said:
Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.
Here are mine.

Ethnicity: An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.

Culture: A way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.

Citizen: A native or naturalized member of a state or nation who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection ( distinguished from alien ).

Nation: Nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.

Sources in headings.
 

Jibrail Almuhajir

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I was watching Andrew Zimmern's culinary show yesterday.  He was down in Jamaica.  One of the folks he showcased was an ethnic Chinese family living there.  If you were to close your eyes, listening to them talk you wouldn't know they were ethnic Chinese.  But they were showcasing how they blended ethnic Chinese culture with the surrounding Jamaican culture.  And every'ting was irie, mon.  :)
 

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mine:

ethnicity: a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry, behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next. the non-biological part is the decisive one.

citizen: a native or naturalized member of a state who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection

nation: nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, religion, or history

*"in general" to all
 

Santagranddad

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Michał Kalina said:
mine:

ethnicity: a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, on the basis of a real or a presumed common genealogy or ancestry, behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next. the non-biological part is the decisive one.

citizen: a native or naturalized member of a state who owes allegiance to its government and is entitled to its protection

nation: nation may refer to a a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, religion, or history

*"in general" to all
The nation state is historically a fairly recent innovation. Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians. In the UK the passport describes holders as British citizens, but they may be English, Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish. Citizens of the PRC may be Han Chinese, Tibetans, Uighurs, etc.

Mislabelling can cause real offence, a good example of this those who identify the UK as England. True 80 per cent of the population live in England but calling a Scot English can lead to an explosive and verbally colourful response.
 

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Santagranddad said:
Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians.
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...). Even today's Austria has a majority of ethnic Germans and Slovene, Croatian, Hungarian etc. minorities.

Citizens of the Hungarian part of the empire were Hungarians without distinction (kind of like the French model). All ethnical or cultural differences were to disappear through assimilation. (That's also the reason why Caraptho-Rusyns don't consider themselves Ukrainians, but that's another story.)
 

ialmisry

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Christ is risen!
sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
sheenj said:
For example, a child born of Ethnic Indian parents in America might have an American culture, but he will definitely still be ethnically Indian.
I disagree.
Do you think his brown skin will disappear? Or maybe that his eyes will turn blue? Ethnicity is about genetics. Culture is about community.
If he is light enough, he can pass.

Or he can become black.

Genetics isn't dispositive for ethnicity. If it were, Indians and Slavs would be the same.


For some ethnicities (e.g. Iranian, Turks, etc), genetics do not play a role at all.
 

ialmisry

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Gorazd said:
Santagranddad said:
Ethnic Poles along with a wide range of others would have been subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but would have been neither Austrians or Hungarians.
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...). Even today's Austria has a majority of ethnic Germans and Slovene, Croatian, Hungarian etc. minorities.

Citizens of the Hungarian part of the empire were Hungarians without distinction (kind of like the French model). All ethnical or cultural differences were to disappear through assimilation. (That's also the reason why Caraptho-Rusyns don't consider themselves Ukrainians, but that's another story.)
so the bureaucrats in Vienna and Budapest thought, but peoples involved proved otherwise. The Poles even have a monument to that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_Lublin_Mound
with irony-and justice-it is in Ukraine now.
 

ialmisry

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Schultz said:
Before we go further, agreed upon definitions are in order for Ethnicity, Culture, Citizenship, and Nationality.
Culture-the customs of a group of people.
Ethnicity-a culture whose people see their customs setting themselves apart from others.
Nationality-a culture with an army and navy.
Citizenship-a nationality telling you what you are, often with the help of its army and navy.
 

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Pascha brought home something of note. I would identify myself as being American by nationality, American culturally and Carpatho-Rusyn ethnically - I think....

What was brought home to us was the endurance of ethnic heritage within the confines of vastly differing cultures. A Facebook friend I do not personally know was visiting the common ancestral villages she shares with me and my wife  from the Slovak region of Saris, near the Polish border. She posted a series of pictures of her visit from preparing the Paschal foods, to Church services to the family meal. On our end , we were awestruck by the realization that had we stumbled into my distant relatives' Pascha or had they rung our doorbell we would have immediately felt a sense of kinship and comfort....This after 125 years of separation by immigration, two world wars, seventy years of communism and religious turmoil within the community on both sides of the Atlantic. At the risk of being presumptuous, I think that is what Michal means and feels.
 

ialmisry

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podkarpatska said:
Pascha brought home something of note. I would identify myself as being American by nationality, American culturally and Carpatho-Rusyn ethnically - I think....

What was brought home to us was the endurance of ethnic heritage within the confines of vastly differing cultures. A Facebook friend I do not personally know was visiting the common ancestral villages she shares with me and my wife  from the Slovak region of Saris, near the Polish border. She posted a series of pictures of her visit from preparing the Paschal foods, to Church services to the family meal. On our end , we were awestruck by the realization that had we stumbled into my distant relatives' Pascha or had they rung our doorbell we would have immediately felt a sense of kinship and comfort....This after 125 years of separation by immigration, two world wars, seventy years of communism and religious turmoil within the community on both sides of the Atlantic. At the risk of being presumptuous, I think that is what Michal means and feels.
yes, an ethnicity can be retained but it cannot be imposed.
 

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Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
 

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stanley123 said:
Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
 

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orthonorm said:
stanley123 said:
Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
 

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stanley123 said:
Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
You misunderstood me. I meant that in the Austro-Hungarian Empire "Austrian" was every citizen of the Austrian part of the Empire, both ethnic Germans and other ethnicities such as Czech, Poles, Ruthenes (Ukrainians)...

Most of those who were left in residual Austria after the end of the WWI were ethnic Germans, since many territories had been lost to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania and Yugoslavia.

An Austrian identity distinct from German developped after WWII. But still today, one would speak in Austria of an ethnic German majority and ethnic minorities such as Croatians and Slovenes.
 

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stanley123 said:
it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
All identity is. Americans should know this. We can forgive the rest of the world for their own naivete about identity, but we have no excuse.
 

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stanley123 said:
orthonorm said:
stanley123 said:
Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...
 

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ialmisry said:
Genetics isn't dispositive for ethnicity. If it were, Indians and Slavs would be the same.

For some ethnicities (e.g. Iranian, Turks, etc), genetics do not play a role at all.
I don't know much about science, but I don't think you can look at just one haplogroup and declare two separate groups the same. The similarity here is most likely due to both areas being invaded by the Mongols and their descendants (the surname Khan is quite prevalent in India for the same reason).
 

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Santagranddad said:
stanley123 said:
orthonorm said:
stanley123 said:
Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...
If this goes to politics, I'll disabuse you of your European high browed myopia.
 

Santagranddad

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orthonorm said:
Santagranddad said:
stanley123 said:
orthonorm said:
stanley123 said:
Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
No thanks, I'll pass...

The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.

As to us mere Europeans being naive, sorry but I found Orthonorm's comment wide of the mark. Naive indeed...
If this goes to politics, I'll disabuse you of your European high browed myopia.
No thanks, I'll pass. Actually I'm long sighted ;)
 

agape1942

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I am a Jewish Orthodox Christian and I am not offended by anything in the Liturgy.  I stand transfixed by the glorious and beautiful poetry and imagery of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy.  I couldn't image changing anything.  It is surely God's magnificent gift to us.  Jesus was born of a Jewish mother and all the early Apostles were Jewish.
 

stanley123

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Santagranddad said:
stanley123 said:
orthonorm said:
stanley123 said:
Gorazd said:
Citizens of the Austrian part of the empire were Austrians, even if they weren't ethnic Germans (yes, Germans...).
However, in 1938, more than 200,000  happy Austrians gathered before Adolf Hitler in Vienna’s Heroes Square and applauded wildly when Hitler declared that Austria would no longer exist but would be part of Germany? If they were not ethnic Germans, why did they welcome becoming part of Germany?
The so-called Anschluss is a complicated affair, but in short, at the time of the Weimar Republic and the Rise of the Third Reich, most Austrians (as we understand the nationstate today) identified as Germans. Around 1990 more Austrians identified as Austrian than German and the notion of an Austrian identity distinct from the German or at least from the Piefke is wildly the norm today. Heck, you can get an version of Babe in the Austrian Standard Langauge.

But really like most of Europe the nationstate is in decline as regions rise in importance. Someone from Salzburg is going to have more in common and relate more closely to someone from Munich than to someone from Vienna or Vorarlberg or Sudtirol. You can imagine how this scales elsewhere.
Since your ethnicity can change from Austrian to German or from German to Austrian within a short time, it seems like ethnicity is a shaky concept with limited substantiality.
Not sure I agree. The German state is itself a recent development. If ethnicity were of such limited substance there would no Bulgarians and no Greeks in 1920s Anatolia as well as no Saxon descendants returning to Germany after centuries from their long established place in Eastern Europe. It is true that regionalism is on the rise in Europe, perhaps an indicator many identify with commonality pre dating arbitrary nation states. Walloons and Flemings rather than Belgians for example or Catalans rather than Spaniards.
Well, if ethnicity is not a shaky concept, how do you define Macedonians? Are they Greek, Serbian, Albanian, Bulgarian or Macedonian? If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?
 

mike

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stanley123 said:
If Macedonian is a recognised nationality and ethnicity, why have some of the Orthodox Churches not recognised the Macedonian Orthodox Church?
Because they were founded by Communists. Because they persecute the Church.

And yes, I acknowledge the right of Macedonian to self-identity (maybe not under that LARP-ing name).
 
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