Calvinism, Slavery, Tangents, and You!

[Alpo]

So there's a Calvinist party in Netherlands. Which is beyond parody in itself but that i it is also advocating against womens' suffrage is awesome. Now I know to which party Cyrillic is voting for.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Political_Party

 

[Iconodule]

Political Calvinism is no joke, unfortunately, as South Africans can attest.

 

[Alpo]

Political Calvinism is no joke, unfortunately, as South Africans can attest.

*shrugs* Everything's been horrible at some point.

 

[Iconodule]

It's pretty recent. And then there's the Protestant (usually Presbyterian) death squads in Northern Ireland.

 

[Alpo]

Yes. Pretty much all religious groups have committed attrocities. But I can still laugh at a silly Dutch party.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Political Calvinism is no joke, unfortunately, as South Africans can attest.

*shrugs* Everything's been horrible at some point.

Calvinism was created as something horrible by an abhorrent and horrifying individual.  It is as much a distorted perversion of Christianity as Orcs were twisted, distorted perversions of Elves in the Tolkien mythos.  It is no surprise, therefore, that Calvinism should manifest itself in politics as something horrible, objectionable, and perverse.  How could it be otherwise?

 

[rakovsky]

*shrugs* Everything's been horrible at some point.

Calvinism was created as something horrible by an abhorrent and horrifying individual.  It is as much a distorted perversion of Christianity as Orcs were twisted, distorted perversions of Elves in the Tolkien mythos.  It is no surprise, therefore, that Calvinism should manifest itself in politics as something horrible, objectionable, and perverse.  How could it be otherwise?

Calvinists in 19th c. Northern US states were among the most strident of abolitionists. Calvinist tradition includes a strong belief in individualism viz a viz authorities. Hence once African Americans accepted Christianity and thereby received grace, Calvinist abolitionists saw them as full human beings, not as subhumans who could be legitimately kept in chains.

The Calvinist origins of the American Abolitionist movement
Jun 28, 2015

Chuck Morse is joined by Christopher Cameron, author of "To Plead Our Own Cause: African Americans in Massachusetts and the Making of the Antislavery Movement " in a discussion about the Calvinist origins and orientation of the Abolitionist movement and how Calvinism moulded the African-American church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXcng2G6nH8

Harriet Beecher Stowe
Harriet Elisabeth Beecher Stowe was born June 14, 1811, in Litchfield, Connecticut, the seventh of nine children of Roxanna (Foote) and Rev. Dr. Lyman Beecher, a well-known Calvinist preacher. Beecher was one of the leaders of the Second Awakening, a Christian revival movement that also inspired social activism—he preached against slavery in the 1820s in response to the Missouri Compromise. ... In 1836, Harriet married widowed clergyman Calvin Ellis Stowe, a professor at her father’s theological seminary. Calvin, active in public education, was very supportive of her writing and her involvement in public affairs. In 1834, Harriet won a writing contest in the Western Monthly Magazine and began writing articles, essays, and stories for it and, over the course of her life-long writing career, other publications including The Atlantic Monthly, New York Evangelist, the Independent, and the Christian Union.  In a letter in 1853, she explained, "... as a Christian I felt the dishonor to Christianity – because as a lover of my county, I trembled at the coming day of wrath."

http://www.historynet.com/harriet-beecher-stowe

Calvinism has this major concept of "wrath". So in Battle Hymn of the Republic, there are the words "Trampling down the vineyard where the grapes of wrath are stored". The "Battle Hymn" is in the spirit and form of American Evangelical/Calvinist Reformed Protestant hymns. "Glory Glory Hallelujah!"

Encyclopedia of Antislavery and Abolition, Volume 1, edited by Peter P. Hinks, John R. McKivigan has several pages on this.

In America, early antislavery evangelicals responded powerfully to the [Calvinist] Edwadsean theology that emerged fromt he Great Awakening. ... these reformers relief heavily on Jonathan Edwards' notion of disinterested benevolence.... Once they linked slavery with sin, New Divinity preachers like Hopkins, a staunch Calvinist, demanded immediate repentence and complete emancipation. Among those employing Hopkins' interpretation of  Edwards were British antislavery evangelicals William Wilberforce and Granville Sharp.

For more, see:
https://books.google.com/books?id=d7b_trbfXugC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=calvinists+abolitionists+slavery&source=bl&ots=t25aoyhPQy&sig=POpwmAvc9P67AghPYxRn36eSCaI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_-5OkzODSAhWj14MKHZUvCgsQ6AEIYTAN#v=onepage&q=calvinists%20abolitionists%20slavery&f=false

Conscience and Slavery: The Evangelistic Calvinist Domestic Missions, 1837–1861.
By Victor B. Howard. (Kent, Ohio: Kent State University Press, 1990.

The outline of Howard's story is familiar to scholars of antislavery and American religion. The American Home Missionary Society was one of the groups, composed largely of New England Congregationalists and New York Presbyterians and adherents farther west, that attempted to save the United States from the rising tide of barbarism it perceived outside New England and New York after the War of 1812. Central to its mission was a post-millennial vision of reform in which the Kingdom of God would dawn in the United States. To that end, Christians had to take the lead in banishing sin from the land. From the 1830s onward, two groups struggled for control of the society, one convinced that slavery was the worst of sins and thus had to be attacked as a sin while the society broke all ties with slaveholders save as sinners to be converted, the other convinced that antislavery had to be subordinated to missionary work in the South—missionary work in which Christian slaveholders would play an important role. Howard shows how the abolitionist view gradually came to prevail

Personally, I don't like Calvin or Calvinism. He was a tyrant in Switzerland and executioner, and His system is very judgmental, fatalistic, negative, and doesn't match early Christianity.

However, I have to admit that there was a faction of it that was relatively extremely progressive and redemptive at one point in history.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Calvinists in 19th c. Northern US states were among the most strident of abolitionists.

And southern Calvinists were among the most vigorous apologists for racially-based slavery and later Jim Crow, often couching their blasphemous philosophy in religious terms.

Calvinist tradition includes a strong belief in individualism viz a viz authorities.

You say that like its a good thing.  In fact, it is the perverse antithesis of authentic Christianity.  But then again, it's Calvinist, so that stands to reason.

Hence once African Americans accepted Christianity and thereby received grace, Calvinist abolitionists saw them as full human beings, not as subhumans who could be legitimately kept in chains.

How disgusting to think that someone is a subhuman until they accept your hideously perverse beliefs.

The Calvinist origins of the American Abolitionist movement...

LOL!  Funny title.  ;D An exaggeration at best.  The Mennonites were actually the first Christians to call for the abolition of slavery in the American context.  Not only that, but Quakers, Episcopalians, and Protestants of various other stripes were just as influential as Calvinists in the establishment of Christian abolitionism in the States, not to mention the mostly secular Enlightenment rationalists.

Harriet Beecher Stowe...

People of African descent had Calvinism and various other abominable heresies thrust upon them and did the best with what they had, just as they made palatable food out of the disgusting scraps foisted upon them by their masters.  Ultimately, however, both Calvinism and chitterlings are unhealthy conduits for faeces and both have proven detrimental to the health of African-Americans in the long run.  I am glad that more and more African-Americans are turning to Orthodoxy and other more traditional forms of Christianity.

Calvinism has this major concept of "wrath". So in Battle Hymn of the Republic, there are the words "Trampling down the vineyard where the grapes of wrath are stored". The "Battle Hymn" is in the spirit and form of American Evangelical/Calvinist Reformed Protestant hymns. "Glory Glory Hallelujah!"

The evil god of Calvinism is not my God.

Encyclopedia of Antislavery and Abolition...early antislavery evangelicals responded powerfully to the [Calvinist] Edwadsean theology that emerged fromt he Great Awakening...staunch Calvinist...

We've been over this.  For every one of these you name, I can name two southern Calvinist apologists for slavery.

Personally, I don't like Calvin or Calvinism. He was a tyrant in Switzerland and executioner, and His system is very judgmental, fatalistic, negative, and doesn't match early Christianity.

It was a diabolical pseudo-Christian philosophy established by evil anti-Christ indeed.

However, I have to admit that there was a faction of it that was relatively extremely progressive and redemptive at one point in history.

The same could be said of many ultimately evil philosophies.

 

[rakovsky]

Antonius, do you think any OOs were enslaved and brought to the US as slaves?

Ultimately, however, both Calvinism and chitterlings are unhealthy conduits for faeces and both have proven detrimental to the health of African-Americans in the long run.

Are chitterlings pretty similar in practice to sausage linings without the meat filled in?

The evil god of Calvinism is not my God.

I sympathize with alot of what you said in your post, Antonius.
However, my question is how far should we take this? Perhaps it would be better to say that they misunderstand things like the Lord's treatment of man and man's free will, and not that this is a separate being? What do you believe is the best way to understand the Coptic Church's contrasting treatments of the Calvinist and Assyrian churches in the MECC?

It seems to me that based on this, the Coptic church considers Calvinists to worship the same God, even though I strongly sympathize with your attitude to Calvinism.

~ With respect.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Antonius, do you think any OOs were enslaved and brought to the US as slaves?

It doesn't seem likely, since the vast majority of the enslaved were taken from areas which, for the most part, had not been penetrated by the Orthodox Faith in Africa.  Never say never though, right?

Are chitterlings pretty similar in practice to sausage linings without the meat filled in?

Chitterlings are the small intestines of a pig.

I sympathize with alot of what you said in your post, Antonius.
However, my question is how far should we take this? Perhaps it would be better to say that they misunderstand things like the Lord's treatment of man and man's free will, and not that this is a separate being?

I believe that is open to debate and interpretation.  There are several different threads on this subject.  What I have consistently stated in all of them is that it is hypocritical to contend - as some posters on here do - that the God of Islam is another god, but the god of  the Protestant sects our God.

What do you believe is the best way to understand the Coptic Church's contrasting treatments of the Calvinist and Assyrian churches in the MECC?

There is already a thread on this too.  In it, I have stated that I believe that the Coptic Church was wrong on barring the entry of the Assyrian Church into an ecumenical body like the MECC while hypocritically countenancing the presence of Protestants.

It seems to me that based on this, the Coptic church considers Calvinists to worship the same God, even though I strongly sympathize with your attitude to Calvinism.

I don't believe that the Coptic Church has ever articulated an official stance on whether or not the god of heterodox sects is our God or not.  Let's say for the sake of argument that they did.  Do you think that this would force me to modify my stance?

 

[rakovsky]

It doesn't seem likely, since the vast majority of the enslaved were taken from areas which, for the most part, had not been penetrated by the Orthodox Faith in Africa.  Never say never though, right?

Alexander Pushkin, the father of modern Russian literature, was in reality Black.  His grandfather was actually an African slave, Abram Petrovich Gannibal, who later became a general to “Peter the Great”.  The regional origin of Gannibal is often contested as it is often said that he was born in 1696 in the village of “Lagon” in modern-day Eritrea (a statue of Pushkin was erected in Asmara in 2009), while others claim that he was from the Logone-Birni area in Cameroon (possibly from the Kotoko kingdom or the Kanem-Bornu Empire).  Interestingly enough, Alexander himself was very proud of his African ancestry.

https://afrolegends.com/2010/03/30/alexander-pushkin-the-black-father-of-russian-literature/

Pushkin especially in the 20th c. had a status similar to the American family Bible or to Mark Twain's writings as analogies for Pushkin's status in Russian families.

Are chitterlings pretty similar in practice to sausage linings without the meat filled in?

Chitterlings are the small intestines of a pig.

Not large?
Isn't this then pretty similar to pork sausage casings/linings then, but just not stuffed with meat like sausages are, Antonius?

I believe that is open to debate and interpretation.  There are several different threads on this subject.  What I have consistently stated in all of them is that it is hypocritical to contend - as some posters on here do - that the God of Islam is another god, but the god of  the Protestant sects our God.

I understand.
Ancient Jews sometimes like Philo conceived of a Trinity God, but they didn't believe Jesus was Logos.
Let's say you have an online studies teacher who you correspond with by mail. One day you run into the teacher at the store, but you refuse to believe she is the same person and then call her an imposter. Meanwhile everyone else in the class understands that they are the same person. Would you be believing in the "same teacher"? It seems to me that the answer is Yes but that simply the teacher was not recognized.

I don't believe that the Coptic Church has ever articulated an official stance on whether or not the god of heterodox sects is our God or not.  Let's say for the sake of argument that they did.  Do you think that this would force me to modify my stance?

Interesting question.
The 17th c. EO Synod of Jerusalem was not an ecumenical council and so it couldn't have even a claim of infallibility. Yet the Synod decided that Transubstantiation was the correct teaching and it put an anathema on the Lutheran understanding of the Eucharistic change. Now in fact, there are numerous EOs, and at least one important pre-schism Pope (Gelasius) who are open to the Lutheran view or have expressed it. Would the EO Synod's decision force EOs in Jerusalem to modify their stance or at least bring them into silence about such views? I suppose the answer in practice would be Yes. In practice, any EOs in 17th c. Jerusalem openly teaching the Lutheran view would be under anathema. And if the Jerusalem Church paid enough attention to someone (eg. a bishop or outspoken theologian) doing this, they would enforce the rule.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Alexander Pushkin, the father of modern Russian literature, was in reality Black....

I know who Pushkin was.  This in no way invalidates my point though.  His Grandfather entered Russia via the Turkish slave trade.  This had nothing to do with the Trans-Atlantic slave trade we were talking about, which took the vast majority of its victims from West and Central Africa, areas which had nothing to do with Oriental Orthodoxy.

Chitterlings are the small intestines of a pig.

Not large?
Isn't this then pretty similar to pork sausage casings/linings then, but just not stuffed with meat like sausages are, Antonius?

No, not large.  If you're really that curious about chitterlings, just Google it.  My point was, chitterlings were scraps, unhealthy cast-offs from the masters that the slaves made the best of because they had no other options.  Per Wikipedia:

At hog butchering time, the best cuts of meat were kept for the master's household and the remainder, such as fatback, snouts, ears, neck bones, feet, and intestines, were given to the slaves

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings#United_States

The same is true of Calvinism and African-Americans.  I am not getting into a big back-and-forth about this peripheral point with you.  If you want to know anything else about soul food, ask someone else or Google it.

I understand.
Ancient Jews sometimes like Philo conceived of a Trinity God, but they didn't believe Jesus was Logos...

So you are saying these Jews misapprehended the Trinity.

Interesting question.
The 17th c. EO Synod of Jerusalem...

It was a rhetorical question.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Interesting question.
The 17th c. EO Synod of Jerusalem...

It was a rhetorical question.

^Made me think of this for some reason...

 

[rakovsky]

Alexander Pushkin, the father of modern Russian literature, was in reality Black....

I know who Pushkin was.  This in no way invalidates my point though.  His Grandfather entered Russia via the Turkish slave trade.  This had nothing to do with the Trans-Atlantic slave trade we were talking about, which took the vast majority of its victims from West and Central Africa, areas which had nothing to do with Oriental Orthodoxy.

I agree.

Wiki map of slave routes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa#/media/File:African_slave_trade.png

RE:
Were there any Ethiopian slaves in America?
I am half-black, but years ago, my black side of the family did a study to try and determine our genes and where we were from in Africa. Surprisingly it showed us to be of Ethiopian heritage physically. Throughout my life, I have been approached by Ethiopians who are 100% sure that I am a native

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090720113622AAGBcaW

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Interesting question.
The 17th c. EO Synod of Jerusalem...

It was a rhetorical question.

^Made me think of this for some reason...

;D Exactly!

Alexander Pushkin, the father of modern Russian literature, was in reality Black....

I know who Pushkin was.  This in no way invalidates my point though.  His Grandfather entered Russia via the Turkish slave trade.  This had nothing to do with the Trans-Atlantic slave trade we were talking about, which took the vast majority of its victims from West and Central Africa, areas which had nothing to do with Oriental Orthodoxy.

I agree.

Wiki map of slave routes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa#/media/File:African_slave_trade.png

RE:
Were there any Ethiopian slaves in America?
I am half-black, but years ago, my black side of the family did a study to try and determine our genes and where we were from in Africa. Surprisingly it showed us to be of Ethiopian heritage physically. Throughout my life, I have been approached by Ethiopians who are 100% sure that I am a native

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090720113622AAGBcaW

Yeah, all the Google searches in the world for "Ethiopian slaves America" or whatever you're putting in won't change the fact that virtually no slaves brought to what is now the United States were from Ethiopia or Eritrea.

 

[TheTrisagion]

Yahoo Answers? Classic!  :laugh:

From a common sense perspective, why would slave traders go the whole way around the horn of Africa to get slaves when they could just pick them up in west Africa, and why would the on land slavers haul people from the entire other side of the continent, across the Sahara desert when there were plenty of people already in west Africa to enslave? It makes no sense that any Ethiopians would have ended up in the US as a result of slavery.

 

[rakovsky]

From a common sense perspective, why would slave traders go the whole way around the horn of Africa to get slaves when they could just pick them up in west Africa, and why would the on land slavers haul people from the entire other side of the continent, across the Sahara desert when there were plenty of people already in west Africa to enslave? It makes no sense that any Ethiopians would have ended up in the US as a result of slavery.

One discussion was saying that the Portuguese were trading some Ethiopians south to Madagascar. Theoretically then some of those could have been taken west as part of the continental trade.

BTW, in the movie ROOTS, one of the West African (nonEthiopian) slaves seems to be Muslim as he prays to "Allah". Then he greets an old man Salaam Alaykum

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAIAvVwPEQc

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

One discussion was saying that the Portuguese were trading some Ethiopians south to Madagascar. Theoretically then some of those could have been taken west as part of the continental trade.

How about just acknowledging that your thesis about Oriental Orthodox slaves in America has no basis in reality rather than engaging in wild, gratuitous, and downright stupid speculation?

BTW, in the movie ROOTS, one of the West African (nonEthiopian) slaves seems to be Muslim as he prays to "Allah". Then he greets an old man Salaam Alaykum

LOL at "nonEthiopian" like that needed to be said when 100% of American slaves fit that description, wild, stupid speculation and fantasies notwithstanding.  But yeah, these guys were from the Mandinka people, most of which are Muslims.

 

[rakovsky]

But yeah, these guys were from the Mandinka people, most of which are Muslims.

Good info.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

But yeah, these guys were from the Mandinka people, most of which are Muslims.

Good info.

Ferris Bueller was not actually Abe Froman.

 

[rakovsky]

Ferris Bueller was not actually Abe Froman.

Interesting.

Why doesn't Abe Froman show up at the restaurant or cancel his reservation?

Abe Froman didn't make the reservation; Ferris did. One reading of the film is that Ferris planned the whole day to force Cameron to face his fears and stand up to his father. By dragging him out, pushing his boundaries, and showing him that he could, in fact, let go and have fun, Ferris made Cameron realize how suffocating his parents were. That gave him the courage to lash out at the Ferrari and commit to confronting his father.

There are a couple pieces of evidence for this: 1. Ferris was singing Danke Schoen in the shower -- the song that he would later sing on the float in the Von Steuben Day Parade. Quite a coincidence. 2. Ferris was allowed on a float and managed to take the microphone and lead a song -- something that would likely require advance planning. 3. Abe Froman never shows up. Ferris goes through an elaborate maneuver to take his reservation to continue pushing Cameron out of his comfort zone. But, he's confident that Abe won't show up (and get them in real trouble) because he made the reservation himself.

https://www.quora.com/Ferris-Buellers-Day-Off-1986-movie-Why-doesnt-Abe-Froman-show-up-at-the-restaurant-or-cancel-his-reservation

 

[RaphaCam]

The forum is getting strange.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

The forum is getting strange.

It is indeed when random posts are considered too random for random posts and end up in their own "too random for random posts" breakaway thread.  ;D

 

[Arachne]

Slave trade in two minutes. The where from and the where to.

 

[rakovsky]

It is indeed when random posts are considered too random for random posts and end up in their own "too random for random posts" breakaway thread.  ;D

Antonious,
I thought that you and I were already back on topic with the Ferris Bueller stuff. With some more discussion of Ferris, we could then move on to "the meaning of randomness".

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

It is indeed when random posts are considered too random for random posts and end up in their own "too random for random posts" breakaway thread.  ;D

Antonious,
I thought that you and I were already back on topic with the Ferris Bueller stuff. With some more discussion of Ferris, we could then move on to "the meaning of randomness".

Liverpool FC has the best fight song of any club in any league on any continent.  YNWA!!!!  8)

 

[Iconodule]

It is indeed when random posts are considered too random for random posts and end up in their own "too random for random posts" breakaway thread.  ;D

Antonious,
I thought that you and I were already back on topic with the Ferris Bueller stuff. With some more discussion of Ferris, we could then move on to "the meaning of randomness".

Liverpool FC has the best fight song of any club in any league on any continent.  YNWA!!!!  8)

In the interest of time, transgressive apples mitigate a seismic camel slurp

 

[rakovsky]

Antonious,
I thought that you and I were already back on topic with the Ferris Bueller stuff. With some more discussion of Ferris, we could then move on to "the meaning of randomness".

Liverpool FC has the best fight song of any club in any league on any continent.  YNWA!!!!  8)

You'll Never Walk Alone

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

It is indeed when random posts are considered too random for random posts and end up in their own "too random for random posts" breakaway thread.  ;D

Antonious,
I thought that you and I were already back on topic with the Ferris Bueller stuff. With some more discussion of Ferris, we could then move on to "the meaning of randomness".

Liverpool FC has the best fight song of any club in any league on any continent.  YNWA!!!!  8)

In the interest of time, transgressive apples mitigate a seismic camel slurp

One hump camels have it all over two hump camels and I'll gob in the eye of anyone says different.  Gabbagabbahey!

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Antonious,
I thought that you and I were already back on topic with the Ferris Bueller stuff. With some more discussion of Ferris, we could then move on to "the meaning of randomness".

Liverpool FC has the best fight song of any club in any league on any continent.  YNWA!!!!  8)

You'll Never Walk Alone

Captain Caveman used to be pretty cool, but the Shmoo can kick rocks.

 

[ZealousZeal]

The forum is getting strange.

It is indeed when random posts are considered too random for random posts and end up in their own "too random for random posts" breakaway thread.  ;D

ARE YOU CRITICIZING MY MODERATORIAL ACTION?! You wanna piece of this?!

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

The forum is getting strange.

It is indeed when random posts are considered too random for random posts and end up in their own "too random for random posts" breakaway thread.  ;D

ARE YOU CRITICIZING MY MODERATORIAL ACTION?! You wanna piece of this?!

With Wonder Woman as your avatar which makes me picture you as Wonder Woman?!?  Heck no!  I'm good, but I know my limits!  ;D

But seriously, it was never meant as a criticism, just a commentary on exactly how weird we have gotten as a forum when we're even too weird for random posts.

 

[WPM]

Probably does have something to do with it.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Probably does have something to do with it.

Love?

 

[Hinterlander]

Anyone here know anything about Abraham Kuyper?  Whether you accept or reject this form of Calvinism I think Orthodox would do well to at least engage it.  It would do more good than sighing wistfully about the Fall of the Second or Third Rome or dreaming of the days of "symphonia".

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Probably does have something to do with it.

Love?

Eat the cake, Anna Mae.

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

Anyone here know anything about Abraham Kuyper?  Whether you accept or reject this form of Calvinism I think Orthodox would do well to at least engage it.  It would do more good than sighing wistfully about the Fall of the Second or Third Rome or dreaming of the days of "symphonia".

Anyone who accepts any form of Calvinism is by definition heterodox.

 

[DeniseDenise]

Anyone here know anything about Abraham Kuyper?  Whether you accept or reject this form of Calvinism I think Orthodox would do well to at least engage it.  It would do more good than sighing wistfully about the Fall of the Second or Third Rome or dreaming of the days of "symphonia".

Anyone who accepts any form of Calvinism is by definition heterodox.

This.



and if by 'engage', one means engage in discussions with the aim of making people see a different way......then yes...by all means...

 

[AntoniousNikolas]

and if by 'engage', one means engage in discussions with the aim of making people see a different way......then yes...by all means...

+1

And I would add, but if, by "engage", you mean adopt a stance towards interface with government informed by an alien, heterodox tradition - in this case, vile and objectionable Calvinism - then never.  We'd be better off "wistfully pining for the days of symphonia" and/or continuing to be the Church which is in the world but not of the world than doing that.

 

[rakovsky]

Anyone here know anything about Abraham Kuyper?  Whether you accept or reject this form of Calvinism I think Orthodox would do well to at least engage it.

Adam Kuyper sounds familiar as someone who is not as Deterministic in his approach as Calvin. Is that right?

Unfortunately, the issue is not only Calvin's Determinism. Take for example the issue of the Eucharist. I am not persuaded by some Reformed Protestants' claims that early Christian writings teach that the Eucharist is symbolic or "effectively" Jesus' body but not directly, objectively having or being Jesus' body.

You would have to find instances of Calvinists who openly agree with the Orthodox on all major points, Free Will and Objective Presence in the Eucharist being two examples. Then you would want to ask why the person is still Calvinist.