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Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented

eddybear

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BCsenior said:
eddybear said:
BC, I hope that you are able to take it on board. I spent many years in protestant charismatic circles, leaning far too heavily on my own interpretations of Scripture. Finding the wisdom in the Church has been a wonderful treasure, albeit one that at times has been hard to accept, as I have needed to repent of my pride time and again. But repentance from pride brings truth and freedom in Christ.
Now of course, you're not including the RCC in this, are you?
And ditto for the Bulgarian Orthodox church.
I may feel it important to share the testimony of a former monk in a BG monastery.
I knew he and his family for several weeks, while we all lived in California.

BTW, have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit?
RCC, BOC, baptism in the Spirit? Sounds like you're trying to change the subject here. Was the challenge of repentance from pride too uncomfortable?
 

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Velsigne said:
minasoliman said:
Velsigne said:
minasoliman said:
The word "predestine" is not a choice, but a desire.  We are all predestined to be saved, but not all of us are willing to accept the love of God.  And so we harden our hearts until finally God gives us up to our own hardening. The word "predestine" does not mean God chose those who will be saved and those who don't.  It's a matter of speaking about the divinity.  In the same way we say God is "pre-eternal" or "pre-existent."
Why would we think God gives up on anybody when we can't say exactly what God is, but can more easily say what God is not: changing and experiencing emotional disappointment as human beings do:

We, therefore, both know and confess that God is without beginning, without end, eternal and everlasting, uncreate, unchangeable, invariable, simple, uncompound, incorporeal, invisible, impalpable, uncircumscribed, infinite, incognisable, indefinable, incomprehensible, good, just, maker of all things created, almighty, all-ruling, all-surveying, of all overseer, sovereign, judge; and that God is One, that is to say, one essences; and that He is known(4), and has His being in three subsistences....

St John of Damascus
An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
Book I CH II
Can even a human love another being who doesn't return love to them?  I thought this is in large part what Jesus Christ tasked his followers with, even if they kill our bodies, the witness of the saints is to cry out to God to forgive, for they know not what they do?
We have example from the Scriptures on God dealing with Pharaoh.  This example was repeated by St. Paul.  My thoughts on God is not merely philosophical, but Scriptural.
Thank you for providing information about how you arrived at that idea. 

I can see why people have difficulty with the logic of a God who commands us to love even as that God will not, or cannot love.

Personally, I don't buy into a lot of ancient Jewish interpretation and chose to be Christian instead.  Ancient Jewish piety may just sound awful to our ears because most of us don't live in self imposed ethic enclaves insulating ourselves from the wider society.  We are the wider society that Jewish interpretation is shielding the community from.

Furthermore, God who will not or cannot love his creation controverts both Scripture and St John Damascus among many others, including Christ Himself on the Sermon on the Mount:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Then St John:

Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent His only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the expiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His own Spirit.
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the World. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

1 John 4.7-13
If God is love, and God in unchangeable, how then does God not love those who seemingly by design have limited capacity of understanding?


4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Corinthians 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Read one way, St Paul sees God as a Trickster:

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26 and,  “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”
IMO he is telling Jews that it isn't enough to simply be born a Jew to be pleasing to God.  He is telling Jews that God can and will show mercy to others, even the pagans if He chooses.  Even those unaware of serving God can serve God.  He says "WHAT IF" not "I am certain" that God creates people only for their destruction in order to teach a form of piety, not state it as an incontrovertible fact.

The New Testament is a clarion call to move away from ethnocentricity, away from inward looking tribal thinking, like with the parable of the Good Samaritan. 

And yet "Christian" societies carry on with the same human tendencies, not above the very same failings of Judaeo spiritual ancestors.

Just like the Reformed and Protestant sects make the same types of errors as their mother, the Roman Catholic church.
+1 Thanks for this quote. It was great!
 

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BCsenior said:
Velsigne said:
What exactly is the method by which God "calls" someone? 
God doesn't have a body, so just wondering if you could explain your perception, or your denomination's perception?
You mean after the person has been predestined, etc., right?
IMO, the historical understanding is that the Holy Spirit does the calling.
I.E. He gives the revelation to the person that the gospel message is the Truth.
This spiritual revelation turns the light on ... so the person no longer is spiritually blind.
No, I don't have special insider trading secrets from God, so God doesn't tell me if he is creating people just so he can torture them for eternity.

So, to rephrase your interpretation of the actual means and methods of a disembodied God calling people:

The person suddenly decides the "gospel message" is true and suddenly they become an expert in theological / spiritual matters being informed to them by a disembodied spirit? 

That seems vague and removes FREE WILL from the equation and it still begs the question:  How do you know for certain that God is calling?

How do you know that they aren't just imagining things?  Mohammed the Islamic Prophet was also struck by revelation and talked with a disembodied spirit, is he also correct? 

Please provide a concrete explanation of how you and / or your denomination determine the person has been "called" by God. 

How do you know for certain that they are no longer "spiritually blind"? 

How do you know for certain if their sudden revelatory understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in anyway accurate?

People have cherry picked the Bible for centuries now and used it to condone all sorts of behavior, so we know they can't all be right....

 

minasoliman

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Velsigne said:
minasoliman said:
Velsigne said:
minasoliman said:
The word "predestine" is not a choice, but a desire.  We are all predestined to be saved, but not all of us are willing to accept the love of God.  And so we harden our hearts until finally God gives us up to our own hardening. The word "predestine" does not mean God chose those who will be saved and those who don't.  It's a matter of speaking about the divinity.  In the same way we say God is "pre-eternal" or "pre-existent."
Why would we think God gives up on anybody when we can't say exactly what God is, but can more easily say what God is not: changing and experiencing emotional disappointment as human beings do:

We, therefore, both know and confess that God is without beginning, without end, eternal and everlasting, uncreate, unchangeable, invariable, simple, uncompound, incorporeal, invisible, impalpable, uncircumscribed, infinite, incognisable, indefinable, incomprehensible, good, just, maker of all things created, almighty, all-ruling, all-surveying, of all overseer, sovereign, judge; and that God is One, that is to say, one essences; and that He is known(4), and has His being in three subsistences....

St John of Damascus
An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
Book I CH II
Can even a human love another being who doesn't return love to them?  I thought this is in large part what Jesus Christ tasked his followers with, even if they kill our bodies, the witness of the saints is to cry out to God to forgive, for they know not what they do?
We have example from the Scriptures on God dealing with Pharaoh.  This example was repeated by St. Paul.  My thoughts on God is not merely philosophical, but Scriptural.
Thank you for providing information about how you arrived at that idea. 

I can see why people have difficulty with the logic of a God who commands us to love even as that God will not, or cannot love.

Personally, I don't buy into a lot of ancient Jewish interpretation and chose to be Christian instead.  Ancient Jewish piety may just sound awful to our ears because most of us don't live in self imposed ethic enclaves insulating ourselves from the wider society.  We are the wider society that Jewish interpretation is shielding the community from.

Furthermore, God who will not or cannot love his creation controverts both Scripture and St John Damascus among many others, including Christ Himself on the Sermon on the Mount:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.



Then St John:

Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.
He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent His only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
In this is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the expiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His own Spirit.
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son as the Savior of the World. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

1 John 4.7-13
If God is love, and God in unchangeable, how then does God not love those who seemingly by design have limited capacity of understanding?


4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Corinthians 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Read one way, St Paul sees God as a Trickster:

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26 and,  “In the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’ ”
IMO he is telling Jews that it isn't enough to simply be born a Jew to be pleasing to God.  He is telling Jews that God can and will show mercy to others, even the pagans if He chooses.  Even those unaware of serving God can serve God.  He says "WHAT IF" not "I am certain" that God creates people only for their destruction in order to teach a form of piety, not state it as an incontrovertible fact.

The New Testament is a clarion call to move away from ethnocentricity, away from inward looking tribal thinking, like with the parable of the Good Samaritan. 

And yet "Christian" societies carry on with the same human tendencies, not above the very same failings of Judaeo spiritual ancestors.

Just like the Reformed and Protestant sects make the same types of errors as their mother, the Roman Catholic church.


I'm not sure what you think I'm saying, but as far as I'm aware, I don't see anything wrong with what you wrote as I skimmed through this.  What did you think I believe?
 

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rakovsky said:
The Evangelical version of solo scriptura Still fails ... 
Great post, thank you!
IMO, sola scriptura reveals that NT water baptism was by full immersion,
with the immersee knowing full well what was goin' on.
(And here's hopin' that's a word.)
 

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eddybear said:
Sounds like you're trying to change the subject here. Was the challenge of repentance from pride too uncomfortable?
And your "repentance from pride" is a big part of the current subject?
Gee, I didn't realize that.
 

minasoliman

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BCsenior said:
rakovsky said:
The Evangelical version of solo scriptura Still fails ... 
Great post, thank you!
IMO, sola scriptura reveals that NT water baptism was by full immersion,
with the immersee knowing full well what was goin' on.
(And here's hopin' that's a word.)
Good for you!  Now go tell that to the thousands of Protestant sects who disagree with your version of Sola Scriptura
 

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Velsigne said:
Please provide a concrete explanation of how you and / or your denomination determine the person has been "called" by God. 
How do you know for certain that they are no longer "spiritually blind"? 
How do you know for certain if their sudden revelatory understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in anyway accurate?
There is no concrete explanation.
It was 6 months before I realized what had happened to me!
Years later, I was blessed to hear Billy Graham say on TV the same thing: 6 months!
FYI, we both have been born again from above with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Every believer is spiritually blind to some extent ... no one knows everything.
When one all of a sudden one no longer considers Jesus and His Gospel as foolishness,
then one "knows" they believe ... spiritual revelation is like a light bulb going on.

Ever hear the phrase, "You know that you know that you know!"?

Problem is ... many cultists feel the same way.

Ever hear that Satan is the Great Counterfeiter?
Not to mention the greatest liar and deceiver ever!!!
 

rakovsky

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BCsenior said:
rakovsky said:
The Evangelical version of solo scriptura Still fails ... 
Great post, thank you!
IMO, sola scriptura reveals that NT water baptism was by full immersion,
with the immersee knowing full well what was goin' on.
(And here's hopin' that's a word.)
I recommend:
John Calvin: Infant Baptism
by Rev. Bryn MacPhail

Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8). He reasons this primarily through paralleling circumcision and baptism, asserting that Scripture testifies to the fact that baptism is for the Christians what circumcision was previously for the Jews(Inst.4, 16, 11). This essay will undertake the task of manifesting the coherence, profundity, and thoroughness of Calvin's reasoning, while illuminating the congruence of his arguments with Scripture.
http://www.reformedtheology.ca/baptism.html
It's a longer essay.

Calvin of course is the foundational thinker on Calvinism's Sola Scriptura and on Calvinism's teaching on infant baptism.

In your version of Sola Scriptura, correct Bible interpretation means that you follow the Holy Spirit as you believe you and Calvin are so led while disregarding the early Christian teachings passed down, and then as a result you achieve the correct interpretation.

Since you have an opposite conclusion from Calvin, a conclusion that he considers to be from Satan, the absolute contradiction in your two conclusions proves to anyone who is objective that your method is severely flawed and not reliable.
 

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BCsenior said:
Velsigne said:
Please provide a concrete explanation of how you and / or your denomination determine the person has been "called" by God. 
How do you know for certain that they are no longer "spiritually blind"? 
How do you know for certain if their sudden revelatory understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is in anyway accurate?
There is no concrete explanation.
It was 6 months before I realized what had happened to me!
Years later, I was blessed to hear Billy Graham say on TV the same thing: 6 months!
FYI, we both have been born again from above with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Every believer is spiritually blind to some extent ... no one knows everything.
When one all of a sudden one no longer considers Jesus and His Gospel as foolishness,
then one "knows" they believe ... spiritual revelation is like a light bulb going on.

Ever hear the phrase, "You know that you know that you know!"?

Problem is ... many cultists feel the same way.

Ever hear that Satan is the Great Counterfeiter?
Not to mention the greatest liar and deceiver ever!!!
For me it took 8 months before I realized what had happened to me... Does that mean that I am deluded? Seriously... I don't mean to be rude but what are you trying to say and accomplish? Instead of answering the posts that you feel most comfortable answering(those where you don't have to defend your faulty interpretations), why not answer the post that seriously question your thoughts and even seem to prove that you are wrong on so many points? Because if you don't have an answer to those posts, then that rather proves that you are in fact wrong.
 

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BCsenior said:
eddybear said:
Sounds like you're trying to change the subject here. Was the challenge of repentance from pride too uncomfortable?
And your "repentance from pride" is a big part of the current subject?
Gee, I didn't realize that.
Yes, it is a big part, an essential part. Time after time many of us here are pointing out flaws in what you are saying, and how you are misunderstanding Scripture, but sadly you're not listening. If you are going to learn things here that benefit you in your walk with Christ - and with all sincerity I hope and pray that you do - then you need to repent of the pride that thinks your own interpretations are correct. If you don't, then regrettably all these discussions are pointless - for you, me and everyone here.
 

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rakovsky said:
BCsenior said:
rakovsky said:
The Evangelical version of solo scriptura Still fails ... 
Great post, thank you!
IMO, sola scriptura reveals that NT water baptism was by full immersion,
with the immersee knowing full well what was goin' on.
(And here's hopin' that's a word.)
I recommend:
John Calvin: Infant Baptism
by Rev. Bryn MacPhail

Calvin declares that "infants cannot be deprived of it[baptism] without open violation of the will of God"(Inst.4, 16, 8). He reasons this primarily through paralleling circumcision and baptism, asserting that Scripture testifies to the fact that baptism is for the Christians what circumcision was previously for the Jews(Inst.4, 16, 11). This essay will undertake the task of manifesting the coherence, profundity, and thoroughness of Calvin's reasoning, while illuminating the congruence of his arguments with Scripture.
http://www.reformedtheology.ca/baptism.html
It's a longer essay.

Calvin of course is the foundational thinker on Calvinism's Sola Scriptura and on Calvinism's teaching on infant baptism.

In your version of Sola Scriptura, correct Bible interpretation means that you follow the Holy Spirit as you believe you and Calvin are so led while disregarding the early Christian teachings passed down, and then as a result you achieve the correct interpretation.

Since you have an opposite conclusion from Calvin, a conclusion that he considers to be from Satan, the absolute contradiction in your two conclusions proves to anyone who is objective that your method is severely flawed and not reliable.
+1
 

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beebert said:
For me it took 8 months before I realized what had happened to me... Does that mean that I am deluded? Seriously... I don't mean to be rude but what are you trying to say and accomplish? Instead of answering the posts that you feel most comfortable answering, why not answer the post that seriously question your thoughts and even seem to prove that you are wrong on so many points? Because if you don't have an answer to those posts, then that rather proves that you are in fact wrong.
The main problem with you and I trying to discuss things is that
you don't seem to comprehend the English words that I write.
So then, you ask the same questions again, etc.
Were you educated in the goode olde USA?
 

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eddybear said:
Time after time many of us here are pointing out flaws in what you are saying, and how you are misunderstanding Scripture, but sadly you're not listening. If you are going to learn things here that benefit you in your walk with Christ - and with all sincerity I hope and pray that you do - then you need to repent of the pride that thinks your own interpretations are correct. If you don't, then regrettably all these discussions are pointless - for you, me and everyone here.
IMO, you (plural) are talking in generalities!
I prefer to PROVE from the NT that my assertions are true.
E.G. I asked one of you to bring forth my Silly #1 assertion, but he refuses.

I am open to showing you from the NT where you are wrong, so let's get at it.

I've already showed you (PL) Scriptures proving that the Holy Spirit "fathered" Jesus,
but no one is wiling to acknowledge this.
Mary was the receptacle, and the Holy Spirit caused her to become pregnant,
or at least He caused her to carry the Baby in her womb.
Does the Orthodox Church deny this?
From what I've heard so far from you (PL), it does!
 

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BCsenior said:
beebert said:
For me it took 8 months before I realized what had happened to me... Does that mean that I am deluded? Seriously... I don't mean to be rude but what are you trying to say and accomplish? Instead of answering the posts that you feel most comfortable answering, why not answer the post that seriously question your thoughts and even seem to prove that you are wrong on so many points? Because if you don't have an answer to those posts, then that rather proves that you are in fact wrong.
The main problem with you and I trying to discuss things is that
you don't seem to comprehend the English words that I write.
So then, you ask the same questions again, etc.
Were you educated in the goode olde USA?
Perhaps you are right because honestly; you Lost me there. I dont understand what you are talking about. You obviously ignore plenty of the meaningful comments you have received from People here because you seem to want to keep playing God's anointed and telling the world that you are the true pope. What is it I dont understand?
 

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beebert said:
Perhaps you are right because honestly; you Lost me there. I dont understand what you are talking about. You obviously ignore plenty of the meaningful comments you have received from People here because you seem to want to keep playing God's anointed and telling the world that you are the true pope. What is it I dont understand?
Yes, attacking people comes when a person has no reasonable answer for something.
I can show you (PL) what the NT is actually saying.
This understanding comes from a combo of the NT and the Holy Spirit.
But, who desires (and is able) to hear spiritual Truth?
You know ... those with eyes and ears.
 

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BCsenior said:
Yes, attacking people comes when a person has no reasonable answer for something.
I guess the Roman Catholic Church then is more orthodox than Calvinism on a lot of things.
Fundamentalists have a habit of raising anti-Catholic attacks to the level of hysteria.

Exhibit 1: Jack Chick tracts

I can show you (PL) what the NT is actually saying.
In crude solo scripturism, every modern man can be his own church and pope, and whatever the 1st century Church or actual Pope Clement, appointed by Peter, themselves said that "the NT is actually saying" when the apostles were still living doesn't matter a wit.

Reformed "Solo Scriptura" doctrine in practice is just a tool to justify arbitrarily creating heresies and schisms.
 

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BCsenior said:
Chick tracts have produced many good results in Eastern Europe.
"This Was Your Life" was a very successful Chick tract in Bulgaria!
 

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BCsenior said:
Chick tracts have produced many good results in Eastern Europe.
;D :D :laugh: 8) ;)

Jack Chick on Santa Claus Costumes:
Synopsis: Disillusionment about Santa Claus leads Harry "The Monster" to murder and eventually to death row. And Hell.

Moral of the story -- Playing Santa Claus leads your children to Hell



http://www.freethought-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12856
 

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BCsenior said:
Chick tracts have produced many good results
Nuff said!
 

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This thread is about Calvinism.

Not baptism.

Not the Lord's conception.

Not Sola Scriptura.

Not, for Pete's sake, Jack Chick.

Stay on topic.

--Agabus, section moderator.
 

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BCsenior said:
beebert said:
Perhaps you are right because honestly; you Lost me there. I dont understand what you are talking about. You obviously ignore plenty of the meaningful comments you have received from People here because you seem to want to keep playing God's anointed and telling the world that you are the true pope. What is it I dont understand?
Yes, attacking people comes when a person has no reasonable answer for something.
I can show you (PL) what the NT is actually saying.
This understanding comes from a combo of the NT and the Holy Spirit.
But, who desires (and is able) to hear spiritual Truth?
You know ... those with eyes and ears.
You are not doing yourself any favours. But it is your choice. I maintain though: You obviously need the church.
Are you saying that you sit here with some spiritual truth that is hidden from all others of us here? Something hidden also from the Church? Just asking.
 

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BCsenior said:
beebert said:
Perhaps you are right because honestly; you Lost me there. I dont understand what you are talking about. You obviously ignore plenty of the meaningful comments you have received from People here because you seem to want to keep playing God's anointed and telling the world that you are the true pope. What is it I dont understand?
Yes, attacking people comes when a person has no reasonable answer for something.
I can show you (PL) what the NT is actually saying.
This understanding comes from a combo of the NT and the Holy Spirit.
But, who desires (and is able) to hear spiritual Truth?
You know ... those with eyes and ears.
By the way, are you here saying that I attack you? And that I do so because I have no reasonable answer to your silly theologizing? I have already debunked your faulty interpretation of scripture just by showing you Why sola scriptura in itself is wrong, and so has many others here. But obviously you don't answer to these obvious debunkings of your faulty interpretation of scripture. Instead you go say something like this: "The main problem with you and I trying to discuss things is that
you don't seem to comprehend the English words that I write.
So then, you ask the same questions again, etc.
Were you educated in the goode olde USA?" as if that is something else than attacking People because you dont have reasonable answers for something. It is for example difficult for us to leave a 2000 year old truth about the Nature of the Trinity in favour for you new spiritual discovery that The holy spirit is Jesus "father"... I mean, come on.
 

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We should put away all natural affections when it is a question of honor. Let not the fathe spare the child, neither one brother another, nor the husband his own wife.... that he put him to death. And that is as it should be.
~John Calvin, cited in:
John Calvin's Doctrine of the Christian Life By John H. Leith
Beebert,

I highly recommend for you the book "Spare the Child". This book discusses the relationship between Calvinism and use of beatings as a major tool of child-rearing among Fundamentalists. The book was one of the major reasons why I left Calvinism.

Most readers will recognize the phrase: “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” This idea comes from a particular authoritarian version of fundamentalist belief. According to Philip Greven:

    “...Modern forms of Christian fundamentalism share the same obsessions with obedience to authority characteristic of earlier modes of evangelical Protestantism, and the same authoritarian streak evident among seventeenth- and eighteenthcentury Anglo-American evangelicals is discernible today, for precisely the same reasons: the coercion of children through painful punishments in order to teach obedience to divine and parental authority.”21

The belief in the awful and eternal punishment of a literal Hell justifies the punishment, shame, and discipline of children by parents who want their offspring to escape a far worse fate. This includes physical or “corporal” forms of punishment. “Many advocates of corporal punishment are convinced that such punishment and pain are necessary to prevent the ultimate destruction and damnation of their children’s souls.”22

21. Greven, Philip. 1991. Spare the Child: The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse. New York: Knopf, p. 198.

22. Ibid., p. 62.

http://www.politicalresearch.org/2004/11/06/calvinism-capitalism-conversion-and-incarceration/#sthash.truDPOVX.dpuf


Book Review:
An extraordinary book in breadth and in scope. Greven's book, though 25 years old, is still startlingly relevant. He takes aim at the historical roots of physical abuse of children in American history, tracing it back to the Puritan theology of our ancestors. Some of this information was new to me and I grew up in a household that celebrated the Puritans. The first two sections of the book are on the history and the theology of religious physical abuse (and here he shows how Puritan theology in particular was abusive, damaging, and repressive to children), and the third section addresses the behavioral and psychological consequences of physical punishment of children. One of the most fascinating aspects of the book is how he traces physical abuse back to the key theologians in Protestant history, Luther, Calvin, Cotton Mather, and many others were all broken and repressed by their parents, which led to a construction of an emotionally repressive theology that further abused generations after them. Vital reading.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1335495.Spare_the_Child
 

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rakovsky said:
We should put away all natural affections when it is a question of honor. Let not the fathe spare the child, neither one brother another, nor the husband his own wife.... that he put him to death. And that is as it should be.
~John Calvin, cited in:
John Calvin's Doctrine of the Christian Life By John H. Leith
Beebert,

I highly recommend for you the book "Spare the Child". This book discusses the relationship between Calvinism and use of beatings as a major tool of child-rearing among Fundamentalists. The book was one of the major reasons why I left Calvinism.

Most readers will recognize the phrase: “Spare the rod and spoil the child.” This idea comes from a particular authoritarian version of fundamentalist belief. According to Philip Greven:

    “...Modern forms of Christian fundamentalism share the same obsessions with obedience to authority characteristic of earlier modes of evangelical Protestantism, and the same authoritarian streak evident among seventeenth- and eighteenthcentury Anglo-American evangelicals is discernible today, for precisely the same reasons: the coercion of children through painful punishments in order to teach obedience to divine and parental authority.”21

The belief in the awful and eternal punishment of a literal Hell justifies the punishment, shame, and discipline of children by parents who want their offspring to escape a far worse fate. This includes physical or “corporal” forms of punishment. “Many advocates of corporal punishment are convinced that such punishment and pain are necessary to prevent the ultimate destruction and damnation of their children’s souls.”22

21. Greven, Philip. 1991. Spare the Child: The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse. New York: Knopf, p. 198.

22. Ibid., p. 62.

http://www.politicalresearch.org/2004/11/06/calvinism-capitalism-conversion-and-incarceration/#sthash.truDPOVX.dpuf


Book Review:
An extraordinary book in breadth and in scope. Greven's book, though 25 years old, is still startlingly relevant. He takes aim at the historical roots of physical abuse of children in American history, tracing it back to the Puritan theology of our ancestors. Some of this information was new to me and I grew up in a household that celebrated the Puritans. The first two sections of the book are on the history and the theology of religious physical abuse (and here he shows how Puritan theology in particular was abusive, damaging, and repressive to children), and the third section addresses the behavioral and psychological consequences of physical punishment of children. One of the most fascinating aspects of the book is how he traces physical abuse back to the key theologians in Protestant history, Luther, Calvin, Cotton Mather, and many others were all broken and repressed by their parents, which led to a construction of an emotionally repressive theology that further abused generations after them. Vital reading.
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1335495.Spare_the_Child
Thank you very much for this. The quote from Calvin was frightening. I will read this book. Thanks. Reading this reminds me of a conversation I had with a catholic Priest a while ago. In that conversation he Said that he was absolutely convinced that Luther, and probably also Calvin, subjected their relationship with their own father on God. Hence the abusive and destructive view of God being an angry and unmerciful judge who only saved a few as an exception but who in reality wants to damn people.
 

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I recommend the book.
I remember reading reports of Calvinist groups, like private Evangelical schools, in the UK, Sweden and Germany within the last 5 or  20 years using violent punishments including caning and birching.

I couldn't find the one I read about Sweden, but this one concerns a scandal over a Pentecostal group in Norway:
Norway's Bodnariu children
By Libby Anne, 2016, Patheos.com

[Article mentions spanking and physical abuse there and says]
This isn’t just about spanking. The children’s uncle has reported that the children told child welfare workers that their father shook their baby sibling like a rag doll. He writes that the children’s father (his brother) denies this, and U.S. evangelical Christian media sources have accepted that denial as fact.
Evangelical Christians today know way too little about the dynamics of abuse.
 

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BTW, Beebert, since you are Swedish:
Swedish Evangelical leader converts to Catholicism
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/march/sweden-pentecostal-converts-catholicism-ulf-ekman-word-life.html
 

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rakovsky said:
BTW, Beebert, since you are Swedish:
Swedish Evangelical leader converts to Catholicism
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/march/sweden-pentecostal-converts-catholicism-ulf-ekman-word-life.html
yes I know about Ulf Ekman... He has quite a questionable reputation from his past as far as I know... He has been responsible for some pretty questionable worship in his old church(Livets ord) among other things. I actually feel sorry for those who were and who are a part of his old church... Many of them have suffered a lot, and well... Been deceived. Though I am not to judge, because he has probably left his old mistakes behind him now since he joined the catholic church.
 

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I just one to name one thing Seraphim Rose thought of protestant christianity; he thought Nietszche was right about it by seeing in it the spirit of weekness and nihilism. Why according to Rose? Because Luther and his followers rejected ascetic struggle and became cowards and friends of the world. Observing its fruits, this is obviously true. Seraphim Rose Said that Nietszche could in protestantism see no struggle, no Christian heroes. Only laid back cowards. Nietzsches wrong conclusion was that the whole Christian religion was a monstrous farce. Though there he was wrong. But according to Rose, Nietzsche had a Point; because protestantism is a monstrous farce. It is interesting that in orthodoxy there are many saints. In protestantism, the greatest heroes are probably Kierkegaard and Nietzsche. One of them regarded himself as damned. The other one called himself an anti-Christ
 

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By the way, I would love to here your opinions on these passages, that seem quite calvinistic as I read them. I can at least understand why understands them in a calvinist way:

God said, "I will harden [Pharaoh's] heart, so that he will not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21).
Isaiah asked, "Why, O Lord, do you make us stray from your ways and harden our heart, so that we do not fear you?" (Isaiah 63:17).
God said, "If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet" (Ezekiel 14:9).
John writes that those who "did not believe in [Jesus] could not believe," because, quoting Isaiah 6:10, "[God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" (John 12:37-40 abr).
God "hardens the heart of whomever he chooses" (Romans 9:18).
"God sends [those who are perishing] a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so [they] will be condemned" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
"Those who do not believe . . . stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined [by God] to do" (1 Peter 2:7-8).

How shall one view these?
 

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beebert said:
By the way, I would love to here your opinions on these passages, that seem quite calvinistic as I read them. I can at least understand why understands them in a calvinist way:

God said, "I will harden [Pharaoh's] heart, so that he will not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21).
Isaiah asked, "Why, O Lord, do you make us stray from your ways and harden our heart, so that we do not fear you?" (Isaiah 63:17).
God said, "If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet" (Ezekiel 14:9).
John writes that those who "did not believe in [Jesus] could not believe," because, quoting Isaiah 6:10, "[God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" (John 12:37-40 abr).
God "hardens the heart of whomever he chooses" (Romans 9:18).
"God sends [those who are perishing] a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so [they] will be condemned" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
"Those who do not believe . . . stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined [by God] to do" (1 Peter 2:7-8).

How shall one view these?
Predestination is not Calvinism per se.

If you have the time, I commend to your reading this talk by the late Fr. Thomas Hopko about the Orthodox understanding of predestination.
 

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Agabus said:
beebert said:
By the way, I would love to here your opinions on these passages, that seem quite calvinistic as I read them. I can at least understand why understands them in a calvinist way:

God said, "I will harden [Pharaoh's] heart, so that he will not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21).
Isaiah asked, "Why, O Lord, do you make us stray from your ways and harden our heart, so that we do not fear you?" (Isaiah 63:17).
God said, "If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet" (Ezekiel 14:9).
John writes that those who "did not believe in [Jesus] could not believe," because, quoting Isaiah 6:10, "[God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" (John 12:37-40 abr).
God "hardens the heart of whomever he chooses" (Romans 9:18).
"God sends [those who are perishing] a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so [they] will be condemned" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
"Those who do not believe . . . stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined [by God] to do" (1 Peter 2:7-8).

How shall one view these?
Predestination is not Calvinism per se.

If you have the time, I commend to your reading this talk by the late Fr. Thomas Hopko about the Orthodox understanding of predestination.
I understand that, the problem with the quotes above is that they say that God actively makes people unable to believe, hardens the heart of people, deceives people, makes people stray away, stumble because they are destined by God to stumble, etc. This sounds like double predestination in a way. Because those passages suggest that God DECREES things to happen actively, despite his foreknowledge. That is, God didn't just have foreknowledge that people would be hardened, he HARDENED them. He didn't just know people would stumble, he made them stumble. God doesn't just know people will be deluded, he sends people powerful delusions.

Plus, even if God predestines according to his foreknowledge and let us be entirely free in our will despite that, he still knew from eternity that many would not choose him and be damned. But yet he created them. So in a way that is still double predestination, just that God puts the responsibility on the person who perishes. Freedom is in a way violated by the fact that we have no saying in the fact that we are created it seems to me...
 

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beebert said:
How shall one view these?
Beebert,

I highly recommend the Golden Chain commentaries in the future for your needs in deciphering gospel verses.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/gcc.html

Peace.
 

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beebert said:
By the way, I would love to here your opinions on these passages, that seem quite calvinistic as I read them. I can at least understand why understands them in a calvinist way:

God said, "I will harden [Pharaoh's] heart, so that he will not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21).
Isaiah asked, "Why, O Lord, do you make us stray from your ways and harden our heart, so that we do not fear you?" (Isaiah 63:17).
God said, "If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet" (Ezekiel 14:9).
John writes that those who "did not believe in [Jesus] could not believe," because, quoting Isaiah 6:10, "[God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" (John 12:37-40 abr).
God "hardens the heart of whomever he chooses" (Romans 9:18).
"God sends [those who are perishing] a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so [they] will be condemned" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
"Those who do not believe . . . stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined [by God] to do" (1 Peter 2:7-8).

How shall one view these?
A while ago, someone sent you a AFR podcast explaining the "harden heart" verses.  He was a former Calvinist turned Orthodox.  I listened to them, and he explains them really well.
 

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minasoliman said:
beebert said:
By the way, I would love to here your opinions on these passages, that seem quite calvinistic as I read them. I can at least understand why understands them in a calvinist way:

God said, "I will harden [Pharaoh's] heart, so that he will not let the people go" (Exodus 4:21).
Isaiah asked, "Why, O Lord, do you make us stray from your ways and harden our heart, so that we do not fear you?" (Isaiah 63:17).
God said, "If a prophet is deceived and speaks a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet" (Ezekiel 14:9).
John writes that those who "did not believe in [Jesus] could not believe," because, quoting Isaiah 6:10, "[God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart" (John 12:37-40 abr).
God "hardens the heart of whomever he chooses" (Romans 9:18).
"God sends [those who are perishing] a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false, so [they] will be condemned" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).
"Those who do not believe . . . stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined [by God] to do" (1 Peter 2:7-8).

How shall one view these?
A while ago, someone sent you a AFR podcast explaining the "harden heart" verses.  He was a former Calvinist turned Orthodox.  I listened to them, and he explains them really well.
Oh okay! Do you know in which thread I can find that podcast? :)
 

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Here you go:

Matthew Gallatin said:
In fact, a brief look at the book of Exodus may be useful here. In chapters 7-9, we can chart the course of Pharaoh’s spiritual demise through the various tests that came to him. After God’s first miraculous sign to Pharaoh — that of Aaron’s rod turning into a serpent — we read that Pharaoh’s heart grew hard. He would not listen to Moses and Aaron’s plea to let Israel go. That’s Exodus 7:13. Exodus 7:23 tells us that after God turned the waters of Egypt to blood, “Pharaoh turned and went into his house. Neither was his heart moved by this.” Now, after the next plague, the plague of frogs, had abated Exodus 8:15 tells us that Pharaoh hardened his heart against the servants of God. Later, when his own magicians told him that the plague of lice was the finger of God, Pharaoh’s heart, Exodus 8:19 says, grew hard. When the fourth plague, the plague of flies was over, Exodus 8:32 tells us that “Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also.” Next, after the Lord killed all the Egyptian livestock, “the heart of Pharaoh became hard” says Exodus 9:7. But interestingly, after the sixth plague of festering boils, the language of Exodus changes. Instead of telling us that Pharaoh’s heart was not moved or that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, Exodus 9:12 states that the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. And that is the phrase used after each of the remaining plagues, except for the seventh after which we read simply that Pharaoh’s heart was hard. That’s Exodus 9:35.

Now, whatever we might make of this, we can certainly say that this transition in phrasing is consistent with what we’ve learned from the epistle to the Romans. God eventually gave Pharaoh up. That is, he ceased striving with Pharaoh, allowing him to become cemented in his belligerence. But this was only after Pharaoh had consistently and willfully steeled himself against God. So, how does all of this relate to God’s words to Pharaoh: “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show my power in you and that my name may be declared in all the earth.” The truth is, whoever, we are, whatever we do and whether we know it or not, God reveals himself through us. All of us, including Pharaoh, have been raised up to manifest the power of God so that his name may be declared in all the earth. We will either do so through our cooperation with his mercy and grace, or we will do it like Pharaoh did. God will find a way to show someone his loving mercy and compassion through our stubborn resistance to him. One way or another, God will use us to accomplish his purpose to bring as many as will receive his love into oneness with the divine life. And in this, we have no room for complaint.
source (Part 5)

Also check out Parts 1, 2, 3, and 4, all with written transcripts like Part 5
 

beebert

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rakovsky said:
beebert said:
How shall one view these?
Beebert,

I highly recommend the Golden Chain commentaries in the future for your needs in deciphering gospel verses.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/gcc.html

Peace.
Thanks! Will read in to it!
 

Porter ODoran

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rakovsky said:
beebert said:
How shall one view these?
Beebert,

I highly recommend the Golden Chain commentaries in the future for your needs in deciphering gospel verses.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/gcc.html

Peace.
How did I not know about this? Thank you Rakovsky.
 

rakovsky

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Porter ODoran said:
rakovsky said:
beebert said:
How shall one view these?
Beebert,

I highly recommend the Golden Chain commentaries in the future for your needs in deciphering gospel verses.
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/gcc.html

Peace.
How did I not know about this? Thank you Rakovsky.
Thank you for saying something nice to me.
:)
 
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