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Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented

beebert

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Jonathan Edwards must have confused satan with God. He thought that infants who die goes to hell and said the following about it:

"t is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE to love such a God?
 

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beebert said:
Jonathan Edwards must have confused satan with God. He thought that infants who die goes to hell and said the following about it:

"t is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE to love such a God?


By loving justice, apparently.
 

Asteriktos

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beebert said:
Jonathan Edwards must have confused satan with God. He thought that infants who die goes to hell and said the following about it:

"t is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE to love such a God?


In the parable of the Prodigal Son they are the "good son" who stays at home and doesn't waste his inheritance and follows the rules, but who can't understand how his father could forget and forgive his returning brother so easily.
 

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beebert said:
Jonathan Edwards must have confused satan with God. He thought that infants who die goes to hell and said the following about it:

"t is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE to love such a God?

When it is part of Moloch cult sacrifice brainwashing about which the Old Testament Torah objects, commanding:

Thou shalt not cause thy children to pass through the fire
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Jonathan Edwards must have confused satan with God. He thought that infants who die goes to hell and said the following about it:

"t is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE to love such a God?


By loving justice, apparently.
You know... This view of God that Edwards seemed to have had, I had for 9 months. I thought God delighted in casting People in to hell, deciding they should go there from before the foundation of the world and even mocking them by making sure that they sin so that he can delight in their comdemnation and suffering. Is it weird that I started to hate this false idea of who God was?
 

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"As I mentioned, one of the tragedies of Christianity in our time is a failure to preach the hatred of God, the judgment of God." - John Macarthur

And:
"The more Godlike you become, the more angry you will get"
Now is this Guy right? Shall we preach that God IS hate AND Love?
 

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I meant to write:
rakovsky said:
A person could do that when he is part of Moloch cult sacrifice brainwashing about which the Old Testament Torah objects
 

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When I first became a Christian I watched a call-in talk show on Christian TV (and frequented a forum) during which the host promoted ideas like 'righteous hatred' and called for instituting OT law in America (death penalty for gays, etc.)  He was also a mid-Acts dispensationalist who believed that Paul preached not only a different gospel than the OT (foretold), but also a different one from the Apostles.
 

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Asteriktos said:
When I first became a Christian I watched a call-in talk show on Christian TV (and frequented a forum) during which the host promoted ideas like 'righteous hatred' and called for instituting OT law in America (death penalty for gays, etc.)  He was also a mid-Acts dispensationalist who believed that Paul preached not only a different gospel than the OT (foretold), but also a different one from the Apostles.
hmm...
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Jonathan Edwards must have confused satan with God. He thought that infants who die goes to hell and said the following about it:

"t is most just, exceeding just, that God should take the soul of a new-born infant and cast it into eternal torments"

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE to love such a God?


By loving justice, apparently.


From a human perspective, there's definitely an honest analysis that our race deserves to perish. To include infants in this is not sentimental but it is not much different in basis than our including infants in communion. Humankind is ostensibly the source of the worst horrors we know, and there is an honest, perceptive basis for the analysis that this is profoundly ingrained in us as beings. As our Fathers so often put it, God alone loves mankind -- honest human justice cannot love us. And so if a religious movement divided itself from our holy Fathers and the Holy Ghost to resort to its own best perceptions, it should not surprise us at all when it comes to conclusions like John Edwards'.
 

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beebert said:
"As I mentioned, one of the tragedies of Christianity in our time is a failure to preach the hatred of God, the judgment of God." - John Macarthur

And:
"The more Godlike you become, the more angry you will get"
Now is this Guy right? Shall we preach that God IS hate AND Love?
Dr. MacArthur is wrong about most things; it's reasonable he's also wrong about God. However, what you're quitting above is common to inflammatory politically-conservative preachers regardless of their soteriology.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
"As I mentioned, one of the tragedies of Christianity in our time is a failure to preach the hatred of God, the judgment of God." - John Macarthur

And:
"The more Godlike you become, the more angry you will get"
Now is this Guy right? Shall we preach that God IS hate AND Love?
Dr. MacArthur is wrong about most things; it's reasonable he's also wrong about God. However, what you're quitting above is common to inflammatory politically-conservative preachers regardless of their soteriology.
I am glad to read someone thinks he is wrong since I have found much of his preaching repulsive. Another quote I find repulsive is this by Paul Washer from "The Cross of Christ ", But perhaps I am wrong:

"It is not an exaggeration to say that the last thing that the accursed sinner should and will hear when he takes his first step into hell is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding God because He has rid the earth of him. Such is the vileness of those who break God’s law, and such is the disdain of the holy towards the unholy"

To me this sounds like something a pharisee could have said...

And this is what a pharisee could say too I believe : C.Matthew McMahon says on page 349 of The Two Wills of God:

The saints should delight in the reprobation of the wicked, thought that be a most difficult statement to make. Augustine, as a result of Paul's exquisite explanations of election and reprobation in Romans 9, came to the same conclusion. ... We come to understand and praise God concerning the damnation of other people. We understand that we could have been what they are. We contemplate their eternal destiny, and bow before the throne to praise the Creator and the Father we have. How awesome is that grace which He bestowed upon us in His Son!
 

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beebert said:
Asteriktos said:
When I first became a Christian I watched a call-in talk show on Christian TV (and frequented a forum) during which the host promoted ideas like 'righteous hatred' and called for instituting OT law in America (death penalty for gays, etc.)  He was also a mid-Acts dispensationalist who believed that Paul preached not only a different gospel than the OT (foretold), but also a different one from the Apostles.
hmm...
Oh it's a scene, man...
 

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In John Piper's talk about "Does God Love the sinner but hate the sin?" at desiring God, Piper claims that God hates sinners and says "He hates and love at the same time. 'For God so loves the world' that he hates". Is this something to take seriously?
 
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Calvinist can be a bit of an embarrassment to Christianity at times, especially when you see groups like the Westboro Baptist church who are Calvinist.  :-\
 

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beebert said:
In John Piper's talk about "Does God Love the sinner but hate the sin?" at desiring God, Piper claims that God hates sinners and says "He hates and love at the same time. 'For God so loves the world' that he hates". Is this something to take seriously?
St. Maximos put it well imo:

You have not yet acquired perfect love if your regard for people is still swayed by their characters - for example, if, for some particular reason, you love one person and hate another, or if for the same reason you sometimes love and sometimes hate the same person. Perfect love does not split up the single human nature, common to all, according to the diverse characteristics of individuals; but, fixing attention always on this single nature, it loves all men equally. It loves the good as friends and the bad as enemies, helping them, exercising forbearance, patiently accepting whatever they do, not taking the evil into account at all but even suffering on their behalf if the opportunity offers, so that, if possible, they too become friends. If it cannot achieve this, it does not change its own attitude; it continues to show the fruits of love to all men alike. It was on account of this that our Lord and God Jesus Christ, showing His love for us, suffered for the whole of mankind and gave to all men an equal hope of resurrection, although each man determines his own fitness for glory or punishment.

-- Four Hundred Texts on Love, 1.70-71
Has someone vilified you? Do not hate him; hate the vilification and the demon which induced him to utter it. If you hate the vilifier, you have hated a man and so broken the commandment. What he has done in word you do in action. To keep the commandment, show the qualities of love and help him in any way you can, so that you may deliver him from evil. Christ does not want you to feel the least hatred, resentment, anger or rancor towards anyone in any way or on account of any transitory thing whatsoever. This is proclaimed throughout the four Gospels.

-- Four Hundred Texts on Love, 4.83-84
 

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beebert said:
In John Piper's talk about "Does God Love the sinner but hate the sin?" at desiring God, Piper claims that God hates sinners and says "He hates and love at the same time. 'For God so loves the world' that he hates". Is this something to take seriously?
Should Calvinists ever be taken seriously?

Sounds like a bit of revisionism to me. Of course, this is the problem with Calvinism. Calvinists cling to a few verses which they interpret to fit their theological paradigm, and use them to color the rest of the Bible which clearly rejects their theological paradigm.
 

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beebert said:
Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
"As I mentioned, one of the tragedies of Christianity in our time is a failure to preach the hatred of God, the judgment of God." - John Macarthur

And:
"The more Godlike you become, the more angry you will get"
Now is this Guy right? Shall we preach that God IS hate AND Love?
Dr. MacArthur is wrong about most things; it's reasonable he's also wrong about God. However, what you're quitting above is common to inflammatory politically-conservative preachers regardless of their soteriology.
I am glad to read someone thinks he is wrong since I have found much of his preaching repulsive. Another quote I find repulsive is this by Paul Washer from "The Cross of Christ ", But perhaps I am wrong:

"It is not an exaggeration to say that the last thing that the accursed sinner should and will hear when he takes his first step into hell is all of creation standing to its feet and applauding God because He has rid the earth of him. Such is the vileness of those who break God’s law, and such is the disdain of the holy towards the unholy"

To me this sounds like something a pharisee could have said...

And this is what a pharisee could say too I believe : C.Matthew McMahon says on page 349 of The Two Wills of God:

The saints should delight in the reprobation of the wicked, thought that be a most difficult statement to make. Augustine, as a result of Paul's exquisite explanations of election and reprobation in Romans 9, came to the same conclusion. ... We come to understand and praise God concerning the damnation of other people. We understand that we could have been what they are. We contemplate their eternal destiny, and bow before the throne to praise the Creator and the Father we have. How awesome is that grace which He bestowed upon us in His Son!
"For I say unto you that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
 

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I think the theology of calvinists, who say that God through hos everlasting hatred, wrath and anger towards sinners is despicable. It is the spirit of anti-Christ talking in this sadistic theology.
The great poet Giacomo Leopardi Said that the fire and brimstone-preachers have not Only surpassed the cruelty of Nature and fate, but they have surpassed by their preaching the cruelty of the worst tyrants and executioners in the history of the world.

"Con che tu hai vinto de crudeltà, non pur la natura e il fato, ma ogni tiranno più fiero, e ogni più spietato carnefice, che fosse al mondo."

This poet is the Only one I know of who has written poetry as great as the poetry in the bible
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
This poet is the Only one I know of who has written poetry as great as the poetry in the bible
::)
You dont agree I guess? Have you read him? You should read "The Song of the Wild Cock". Just exceptional...

http://leopardi.letteraturaoperaomnia.org/translate_english/leopardi_the_song_of_the_wild_cock.html
 

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Listen to this from Augustine of Hippo:
Aug., Quaest. in Matt., q. 14: Otherwise; "They have shut their eyes lest they should see with their eyes," that is, themselves were the cause that God shut their eyes. For another Evangelist says, "He hath blinded their eyes." But is this to the end that they should never see? Or that they should not see so much as this, that becoming discontent with their own blindness and bewailing themselves, should so be humbled, and moved to confession of their sins and pious seeking after God. For Mark thus expresses the same thing, "Lest they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." From which we learn, that by their sins they deserved not to understand; and that yet this was allowed them in mercy that they should confess their sins, and should turn, and so merit to be forgiven.

But when John relating this expresses it thus, "Therefore they could not believe because Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them," [John 12:39] this seems to be opposed to this interpretation, and to compel us to take what is here said, "Lest they should see with their eyes," not as though they might come to see after this fashion, but that they should never see at all; for he says it plainly, "That they should not see with their eyes." And that he says, "Therefore they could not believe," sufficiently shews that the blindness was not indicted, to the end that moved thereby, and grieving that they understood not, they should be converted through penitence; for that they could not, unless they had first believed, and by believing had been converted, and by conversion had been healed, and having been healed understood; but it rather shews that they were therefore blinded that they should not believe. For he speaks most clearly, "Therefore they could not believe."

But if it be so, who would not rise up in defence of the Jews, and pronounce them to be free from all blame for their unbelief? For, "Therefore they could not believe, because he hath blinded their eyes." But because we must rather believe God to be without fault, we are driven to confess that by some other sins they had thus deserved to be blinded, and that indeed this blinding prevented them from believing; for the words of John are these, "They could not believe, because that Elias said again, He hath blinded their eyes."

It is in vain then to endeavour to understand it that they were therefore blinded that they should be converted; seeing they could not be converted because they believed not; and they could not believe because they were blinded. Or perhaps we should not say amiss thus -- that some of the Jews were capable of being healed, but that being puffed up with so great swelling pride, it was good for them at first that they should not believe, that they might understand the Lord speaking in parables, which if they did not understand they would not believe; and thus not believing on Him, they together with the rest who were past hope crucified Him; and at length after His resurrection, they were converted, when humbled by the guilt of His death they loved Him the more because of the heavy guilt which had been forgiven them; for their so great pride needed such an humiliation to overcome it"

He was certainly NOT a Calvinist. Rather. As I see the writings ör the fathers, I find how they would all have considered calvinism to be a Most blasphemous and anti-Christian theology.
 

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And Matthew 9:9-13 proves that protestantism and especially Calvinism is false. God doesnt turn his back on sinners. God wants mercy, not sacrifice. Tell me if you see that in calvinism.
 

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The fact that justification by faith alone isn't in the Bible is alone good enough reason to reject Protestantism. Sola Scriptura is also a problem, it isn't necessarily false, but it isn't really clear how it's true. It can't all be Scripture, or else faith alone is false, if it is all Scripture, which manuscripts? Which translations? Which versions? That becomes a problem very fast. Also, there's the obvious problem of interpretation.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Sola Scriptura is also a problem, it isn't necessarily false, but it isn't really clear how it's true. It can't all be Scripture, or else faith alone is false, if it is all Scripture, which manuscripts? Which translations? Which versions? That becomes a problem very fast. Also, there's the obvious problem of interpretation.
I don't know how much I am interested in justifying Protestantism here. But my understanding of what Sola Scriptura means for Lutheranism is that the Bible is the only final and infallible church writing, whereas Papal decisions and Ecumenical Councils are not both final and infallible.

To give an example, Luther and Calvin in their debates with each other respected Augustine and Chalcedon. However, if Luther believed that the Bible taught something different than a Church father or Council, Luther wanted to be able to come in and say "The Bible teaches something different and the Bible's teaching is final". I take it that Calvin accepted Luther's understanding of Sola Scriptura.
 

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rakovsky said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Sola Scriptura is also a problem, it isn't necessarily false, but it isn't really clear how it's true. It can't all be Scripture, or else faith alone is false, if it is all Scripture, which manuscripts? Which translations? Which versions? That becomes a problem very fast. Also, there's the obvious problem of interpretation.
I don't know how much I am interested in justifying Protestantism here. But my understanding of what Sola Scriptura means for Lutheranism is that the Bible is the only final and infallible church writing, whereas Papal decisions and Ecumenical Councils are not both final and infallible.

To give an example, Luther and Calvin in their debates with each other respected Augustine and Chalcedon. However, if Luther believed that the Bible taught something different than a Church father or Council, Luther wanted to be able to come in and say "The Bible teaches something different and the Bible's teaching is final". I take it that Calvin accepted Luther's understanding of Sola Scriptura.
That doesn't really make the problem go away. You have to quantify what "the Bible" is before you can claim it's an infallible authority. It's the same problem with pre-Vatican II Popes vs post-Vatican II Popes. They are entirely contradictory, so you have to quantify what is infallible and what isn't.

And again, the problem of interpretation. Does hoc est enim corpus meum mean what it says, or is it a symbol, for instance?
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
... if it is all Scripture, which manuscripts? Which translations? Which versions? That becomes a problem very fast.
It's not a problem. That's a bugaboo to spook people with shallow knowledge of the subject.

Also, there's the obvious problem of interpretation.
Now there's the problem.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
... if it is all Scripture, which manuscripts? Which translations? Which versions? That becomes a problem very fast.
It's not a problem. That's a bugaboo to spook people with shallow knowledge of the subject.

Also, there's the obvious problem of interpretation.
Now there's the problem.
lol, no. The translations have substantive differences. There is a difference between "tradition" and "teaching." There is a difference between peace upon "those whom you have favored" and "upon all men" in the Gospel of Luke. Since all of the manuscripts are  different from one another, it's obviously important to determine which is inerrant and which are not.
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Porter ODoran said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
... if it is all Scripture, which manuscripts? Which translations? Which versions? That becomes a problem very fast.
It's not a problem. That's a bugaboo to spook people with shallow knowledge of the subject.

Also, there's the obvious problem of interpretation.
Now there's the problem.
lol, no. The translations have substantive differences. There is a difference between "tradition" and "teaching." There is a difference between peace upon "those whom you have favored" and "upon all men" in the Gospel of Luke. Since all of the manuscripts are  different from one another, it's obviously important to determine which is inerrant and which are not.
Inaccurate and misguided. You should be reanalyzing the bases of your pride if you are really leaving behind an agnostic past.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
Porter ODoran said:
xOrthodox4Christx said:
... if it is all Scripture, which manuscripts? Which translations? Which versions? That becomes a problem very fast.
It's not a problem. That's a bugaboo to spook people with shallow knowledge of the subject.

Also, there's the obvious problem of interpretation.
Now there's the problem.
lol, no. The translations have substantive differences. There is a difference between "tradition" and "teaching." There is a difference between peace upon "those whom you have favored" and "upon all men" in the Gospel of Luke. Since all of the manuscripts are  different from one another, it's obviously important to determine which is inerrant and which are not.
Inaccurate and misguided. You should be reanalyzing the bases of your pride if you are really leaving behind an agnostic past.
Zizek Said Only a Christian can be a true atheist.
 

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beebert said:
... C.Matthew McMahon ...
Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

I once read a book from him written in a dialogue format in which the Puritan elder was wise and intellectually unassailable, while the padawan/foil character kept saying things like, "This is difficult for me to accept because it clashes with my worldview."
 

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According to Berdyaev Adam's sin was not breaking the law but choosing the law (forbidden fruit).
 

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Agabus said:
beebert said:
... C.Matthew McMahon ...
Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

I once read a book from him written in a dialogue format in which the Puritan elder was wise and intellectually unassailable, while the padawan/foil character kept saying things like, "This is difficult for me to accept because it clashes with my worldview."
;D
 

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beebert said:
According to Berdyaev Adam's sin was not breaking the law but choosing the law (forbidden fruit).
Let me guess -- the Only One you know of who has written proverbs as great as the wisdom in the Bible?
 

Jetavan

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The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
 

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Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
According to Berdyaev Adam's sin was not breaking the law but choosing the law (forbidden fruit).
Let me guess -- the Only One you know of who has written proverbs as great as the wisdom in the Bible?
Certainly not. Nothing compares to the bible. But read Leopardi instead of ridiculing me. If someone reads him and doesnt see he is a great poet , then that person certainly do not understand poetry. And Berdyaev had a Point. We wouldnt have needed the law if Adam hadnt fall. That is quite basic.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
There is a PB schism that does believe this (inasmuch as their ecclesiology can result in schism), but like a lot of hill religion, it has almost disappeared. I've seen literature calling them the No Hell Baptists or somesuch.

My PB people, who have gotten so liberal they've installed a baptistry inside the church and have cushions on the pews, are still nowhere near embracing such an idea, though.
 

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They seem to be a pretty tiny group, but it looks they do exist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Baptist_Universalist
 
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