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Calvinism - The most wicked system ever invented

Jetavan

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Porter ODoran said:
Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
It's theorized that as Universalist churches popped up in Tennessee in the early 1900s, Universalist theology (built upon Calvinist ideas) filtered into a subgroup of the Primitive Baptists, leading to the Primitive Baptist Universalist group developing by the 1940s.

PBUs believe in hell, but for them hell occurs in this life, as a result of sinful living. Living a righteous life leads to a life of deep joy. At the resurrection, all will live fully in God's presence. Thus, PBUs are sometimes called "No Hellers".
 

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Jetavan said:
Porter ODoran said:
Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
It's theorized that as Universalist churches popped up in Tennessee in the early 1900s, Universalist theology (built upon Calvinist ideas) filtered into a subgroup of the Primitive Baptists, leading to the Primitive Baptist Universalist group developing by the 1940s.

PBUs believe in hell, but for them hell occurs in this life, as a result of sinful living. Living a righteous life leads to a life of deep joy. At the resurrection, all will live fully in God's presence. Thus, PBUs are sometimes called "No Hellers".
What do all really mean when they say "this life" and "the afterlife"? There is no division between two different lives. There is life and there is death. There is eternal life and there is eternal death. Christ said "I am the resurrection and life". And he said "He who believes in me shall not die even if he dies, and he who believes in me shall never die". This suggests there is only one life: Eternal life.
 

Porter ODoran

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Jetavan said:
Porter ODoran said:
Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
It's theorized that as Universalist churches popped up in Tennessee in the early 1900s, Universalist theology (built upon Calvinist ideas) filtered into a subgroup of the Primitive Baptists, leading to the Primitive Baptist Universalist group developing by the 1940s.

PBUs believe in hell, but for them hell occurs in this life, as a result of sinful living. Living a righteous life leads to a life of deep joy. At the resurrection, all will live fully in God's presence. Thus, PBUs are sometimes called "No Hellers".
I like it. "Thar goes that No Heller feller."
 

Porter ODoran

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beebert said:
Jetavan said:
Porter ODoran said:
Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
It's theorized that as Universalist churches popped up in Tennessee in the early 1900s, Universalist theology (built upon Calvinist ideas) filtered into a subgroup of the Primitive Baptists, leading to the Primitive Baptist Universalist group developing by the 1940s.

PBUs believe in hell, but for them hell occurs in this life, as a result of sinful living. Living a righteous life leads to a life of deep joy. At the resurrection, all will live fully in God's presence. Thus, PBUs are sometimes called "No Hellers".
What do all really mean when they say "this life" and "the afterlife"? There is no division between two different lives. There is life and there is death. There is eternal life and there is eternal death. Christ said "I am the resurrection and life". And he said "He who believes in me shall not die even if he dies, and he who believes in me shall never die". This suggests there is only one life: Eternal life.
This life is not the same as the life to come. That's pretty basic, really.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Jetavan said:
Porter ODoran said:
Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
It's theorized that as Universalist churches popped up in Tennessee in the early 1900s, Universalist theology (built upon Calvinist ideas) filtered into a subgroup of the Primitive Baptists, leading to the Primitive Baptist Universalist group developing by the 1940s.

PBUs believe in hell, but for them hell occurs in this life, as a result of sinful living. Living a righteous life leads to a life of deep joy. At the resurrection, all will live fully in God's presence. Thus, PBUs are sometimes called "No Hellers".
What do all really mean when they say "this life" and "the afterlife"? There is no division between two different lives. There is life and there is death. There is eternal life and there is eternal death. Christ said "I am the resurrection and life". And he said "He who believes in me shall not die even if he dies, and he who believes in me shall never die". This suggests there is only one life: Eternal life.
This life is not the same as the life to come. That's pretty basic, really.
Depends on ones understanding of time
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Jetavan said:
Porter ODoran said:
Jetavan said:
The problem with Calvinism is that it doesn't go far enough. If all men are corrupted because of the sin done by the First Adam, then all men (and women, most likely) are saved because of the divinity embodied by the Second Adam. There's a small group of Primitive Baptists in Appalachia (especially Tennessee, West Virginia, Kentucky) who take Calvinism to it's logical conclusion.
That's not what Primitive Baptists believe (I grew up among them). However, it's a common belief among mainline Reformed churches, at its height during the Universalist movement ca. 1800.
It's theorized that as Universalist churches popped up in Tennessee in the early 1900s, Universalist theology (built upon Calvinist ideas) filtered into a subgroup of the Primitive Baptists, leading to the Primitive Baptist Universalist group developing by the 1940s.

PBUs believe in hell, but for them hell occurs in this life, as a result of sinful living. Living a righteous life leads to a life of deep joy. At the resurrection, all will live fully in God's presence. Thus, PBUs are sometimes called "No Hellers".
What do all really mean when they say "this life" and "the afterlife"? There is no division between two different lives. There is life and there is death. There is eternal life and there is eternal death. Christ said "I am the resurrection and life". And he said "He who believes in me shall not die even if he dies, and he who believes in me shall never die". This suggests there is only one life: Eternal life.
This life is not the same as the life to come. That's pretty basic, really.
Btw, that this life isn't the same as the life to come doesn't mean that it is right to call the life to come "afterlife". Jesus says "He who believes in me has eternal life". He says "HAS". Not "Will have in the afterlife".
 

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Porter ODoran said:
Bios, pneuma, or zoe? Not to mention aeon.
Yes I know about the great variations in the greek language when it comes to the word "life". Which makes it even more possible that eternal life means just eternal life and not "this life in time, then another life in time but where time will last forever, where we will live in time forever without dying".
 

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You said a Christian shouldn't use "after life" because there is only one life. I can tell you have a very emotional, intuitive reasoning style, but you can't expect to convince others without "showing your work" to some extent. And if you're not trying to convince, then you're just commanding, and that's rude.
 

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Porter ODoran said:
You said a Christian shouldn't use "after life" because there is only one life. I can tell you have a very emotional, intuitive reasoning style, but you can't expect to convince others without "showing your work" to some extent. And if you're not trying to convince, then you're just commanding, and that's rude.
I am sorry. I am not trying to command anything. I apologize. When I said there is only one life, I did not mean that there is no continuation of life after death. All I meant is that those who believe in Jesus HAVE eternal life, and will not die, even if they die. As it seems to me, it would be better to call the continuation after death just that: "after death", or "continuation of life after death" rather than "afterlife". Because there is no such thing as after life if you think about it... There is life in Christ and continuation of life with Christ after physical death.
 

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I think Fr. John Behr makes some points similar to this that you might find interesting. I posted a bit on the forum, and if you don't want to get the book you can find lectures on youtube in which he expands on life and death (like here or this one). I still think the word 'afterlife' is useful in distinguishing phases or times in our existence though, even if theologically it is much more complicated and even misleading in some ways.
 

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beebert said:
Porter ODoran said:
You said a Christian shouldn't use "after life" because there is only one life. I can tell you have a very emotional, intuitive reasoning style, but you can't expect to convince others without "showing your work" to some extent. And if you're not trying to convince, then you're just commanding, and that's rude.
I am sorry. I am not trying to command anything. I apologize. When I said there is only one life, I did not mean that there is no continuation of life after death. All I meant is that those who believe in Jesus HAVE eternal life, and will not die, even if they die. As it seems to me, it would be better to call the continuation after death just that: "after death", or "continuation of life after death" rather than "afterlife". Because there is no such thing as after life if you think about it... There is life in Christ and continuation of life with Christ after physical death.
So you find it less morbid to call it "after death" than "after life"? (Recall, unbelieving morbidness was the original reason you implied "after life" is not appropriate in Christians' mouths.)
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Porter ODoran said:
You said a Christian shouldn't use "after life" because there is only one life. I can tell you have a very emotional, intuitive reasoning style, but you can't expect to convince others without "showing your work" to some extent. And if you're not trying to convince, then you're just commanding, and that's rude.
I am sorry. I am not trying to command anything. I apologize. When I said there is only one life, I did not mean that there is no continuation of life after death. All I meant is that those who believe in Jesus HAVE eternal life, and will not die, even if they die. As it seems to me, it would be better to call the continuation after death just that: "after death", or "continuation of life after death" rather than "afterlife". Because there is no such thing as after life if you think about it... There is life in Christ and continuation of life with Christ after physical death.
So you find it less morbid to call it "after death" than "after life"? (Recall, unbelieving morbidness was the original reason you implied "after life" is not appropriate in Christians' mouths.)
I would be happy to hear your view on what "eternal" means. Because it might be that different understandings of that concept is actually what is causing the problem here I believe...
 

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beebert said:
Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Porter ODoran said:
You said a Christian shouldn't use "after life" because there is only one life. I can tell you have a very emotional, intuitive reasoning style, but you can't expect to convince others without "showing your work" to some extent. And if you're not trying to convince, then you're just commanding, and that's rude.
I am sorry. I am not trying to command anything. I apologize. When I said there is only one life, I did not mean that there is no continuation of life after death. All I meant is that those who believe in Jesus HAVE eternal life, and will not die, even if they die. As it seems to me, it would be better to call the continuation after death just that: "after death", or "continuation of life after death" rather than "afterlife". Because there is no such thing as after life if you think about it... There is life in Christ and continuation of life with Christ after physical death.
So you find it less morbid to call it "after death" than "after life"? (Recall, unbelieving morbidness was the original reason you implied "after life" is not appropriate in Christians' mouths.)
I would be happy to hear your view on what "eternal" means. Because it might be that different understandings of that concept is actually what is causing the problem here I believe...
Nobody objects to using "eternal life."
 

rakovsky

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Beebert. I seem to remember you saying you were raised Evangelical. Do I have that right?
 

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Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Porter ODoran said:
beebert said:
Porter ODoran said:
You said a Christian shouldn't use "after life" because there is only one life. I can tell you have a very emotional, intuitive reasoning style, but you can't expect to convince others without "showing your work" to some extent. And if you're not trying to convince, then you're just commanding, and that's rude.
I am sorry. I am not trying to command anything. I apologize. When I said there is only one life, I did not mean that there is no continuation of life after death. All I meant is that those who believe in Jesus HAVE eternal life, and will not die, even if they die. As it seems to me, it would be better to call the continuation after death just that: "after death", or "continuation of life after death" rather than "afterlife". Because there is no such thing as after life if you think about it... There is life in Christ and continuation of life with Christ after physical death.
So you find it less morbid to call it "after death" than "after life"? (Recall, unbelieving morbidness was the original reason you implied "after life" is not appropriate in Christians' mouths.)
I would be happy to hear your view on what "eternal" means. Because it might be that different understandings of that concept is actually what is causing the problem here I believe...
Nobody objects to using "eternal life."
What do you mean? Of Course there is no wrong with using "eternal life". What I mean is that the meaning  ör "eternal life" contains something much deeper, and more mystical than "Live forever without end".
 

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rakovsky said:
Beebert. I seem to remember you saying you were raised Evangelical. Do I have that right?
Actaully no hehe. Had I been raised an evangelical I am not sure I would have Lived today...
 

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How old were you when you joined the calvinists. I thought you said you had been one. Otherwise why so much personal focus? Sweden unlike my country does not have many.
 

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rakovsky said:
How old were you when you joined the calvinists. I thought you said you had been one. Otherwise why so much personal focus? Sweden unlike my country does not have many.
I have been one. I was brainwashed. I never liked calvinism. I just thought it was true and it literally destroyed me from within.
 

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Though you may be a little extreme and, like others, I also don't see the point of going on and on about it on a forum like this, I can see where you're coming from. I know from my personal experience being a part of it that Calvinism can feel a little soul-destroying at times, and I'm glad I've been in the process of moving on from it for a while. To be honest, I still feel like Calvinism is the best Protestantism can offer in terms of a rigorous and consistent system of thought, so I don't really see myself as being a Protestant without being Calvinist. That's part of why I'm in the process of leaving Protestantism behind and hopefully finding a new home in Orthodoxy, though I'm still just in the "inquirer" phase.

But yeah, while I wouldn't go nearly as far as you would, I've come to realize that Calvinism has steered me wrong in many ways and even given me spiritual agony at times. There was a phase in my life in which I couldn't stop thinking about hell and the fact that a lot of people I might encounter on a day to day basis were condemned to there with nothing that could be done about it, the thought that it was God's will and eternal plan that the vast majority of people in history should exist for no other reason than to suffer the worst fate imaginable. Thinking about others going hell should theoretically motivate evangelism, but for me it didn't, because I couldn't change the fact that God had predestined for the majority to enter hellfire and there was nothing to be done about it. It really messed me up, honestly. Calvinism does have positive aspects, but I got to the point where I couldn't deny how horrifying it is. It was very hard for me to see God in the Calvinist perception as not having wrath as his primary characteristic, and certainly not as being more loving and gracious than he was wrathful, no matter how much grace was emphasized in Calvinism - because his grace is only really understood in light of the endless wrath he would otherwise pour out. While humility and belief in humanity's natural sinfulness is extremely crucial for Christians, I also think that Calvinists overdo it with their emphasis on "total depravity", and I daresay it caused me to think more about my sinfulness than God's grace.

But in a sense, I think the worst thing of all is what Calvinism unwittingly does to Jesus, because they seem to care about him more as a divine piece of meat that was the perfect formula to take away our sins rather than seeing him as a person. I know I'll probably regret saying that later, but to some degree that's what it feels like sometimes. I'm not saying that's something they'd really affirm, just that it's an unfortunate side-effect of their emphases. It's so completely different from the Orthodox who care so dearly about his entire life, and it's definitely something that has struck me about Orthodox and made me want to be a part of it. I want to truly live a life filled with Christ, rather than seeing Christ's greatest importance as being part of a mathematical formula that allowed him to pay for my sins. I am drawn to the Orthodox's much more holistic and progressive view of salvation rather than Calvinism's emphasis on an exact, precise logical formula that is as narrowly defined as possible. Protestantism in general has this problem, but Calvinism makes it even worse. I have heard Calvinists say that Jesus did not die to save us from our sin, but from the punishment for our sin. How this didn't immediately strike me as totally ridiculous is a cause of shame now. Calvinists are also so obsessed with emphasizing that Christ came to die to save us for God's wrath as being the purpose of his incarnation above all, seeming to ignore where Jesus explicitly gave multiple other reasons he came into the world.

I still don't have a solely negative view of Calvinism, even after all that. Many Calvinists are beautiful and faithful Christians and I do admire their care for intellectualism and logical frameworks. I just also think that Calvinism has kind of "lost the plot" as far as the ultimate meaning of Christianity, and that the belief system, consistent and well-thought-out as it may be, is ultimately built on some faulty ideas.

I was under the impression that Calvinism was just the natural extension of Christianity, and thank God that I now realize that the faith is so much more than that. I sincerely hope I can find a new home in Orthodoxy, if it is God's will.
 

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Not a Calvinist, but I do have a question for anybody who wants to answer.

Would you find the system more palatable if, after death/the Judgement, the non-elect were annihilated from existence instead of suffering eternally? Glenn Peoples is a Calvinist philosopher who argues for that.
 

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Scientology might be the worst among religions with significant membership because it is so controlling and personally destructive for its members. There are smaller cults that are more destructive.
 

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Volnutt said:
Not a Calvinist, but I do have a question for anybody who wants to answer.

Would you find the system more palatable if, after death/the Judgement, the non-elect were annihilated from existence instead of suffering eternally? Glenn Peoples is a Calvinist philosopher who argues for that.
For some reason, I find the thought of ceasing to exist far more terrifying than suffering eternally.  I can't explain why I feel that way.
 

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beebert said:
Can we all affirm this? I know many of you agree this monstrous invention is false. But it is more Than that. It is a very dangerous, extremely wicked, impious system of ultimate stupidity. This almost needs to be written on walls. Calvinism is a pagan religion of fate, it is a materialistic system that actually denies God. There are so many Points at which this evil invention can be criticised. Calvinism does not understand that Jesus and God are of the same essence. It think it does , but obviously that it not the case. It is wrong in a blasphemous way on the incarnation, the Trinity, soteriology,  the Nature of God. EVERYTHING. And its founder was as Close to a pharisee as one could come. He was unmerciful, pitiless and uncharitable and by his action and thought seems to have proved that he believed Only in the God and Christ of his own invention and imagination, since what he did to sinners was the opposite to what Christ did. This is just unacceptable. I know about calvinists who discuss whether it is correct to consider catholics their Brothers and sisters in Christ. The question is rather if it is correct to consider calvinists who truly Believe in their heavenly egoistic and utallitarian system as brothers and sisters in Christ. To me, when really diving in to what believing in this system actually means, I consider it to be among the worst ideologies on Earth, almost as evil as nazism and racism, since calvinists turn God in to a sadistic demiurge and monster dictator. THIS is just blasphemous and I thank God I am starting to realize the wickedness behind this stupid delusion. Calvinism does not reveal who God is. It reveals what their followers are like if they truly Believe this. Either brainwashed or sadistic egoists.
Belatedly, I have to ask "bitter much, there?"
 

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PorphyriosK said:
Volnutt said:
Not a Calvinist, but I do have a question for anybody who wants to answer.

Would you find the system more palatable if, after death/the Judgement, the non-elect were annihilated from existence instead of suffering eternally? Glenn Peoples is a Calvinist philosopher who argues for that.
For some reason, I find the thought of ceasing to exist far more terrifying than suffering eternally.  I can't explain why I feel that way. 
I sympathize!

sprtslvr1973 said:
beebert said:
Can we all affirm this? I know many of you agree this monstrous invention is false. But it is more Than that. It is a very dangerous, extremely wicked, impious system of ultimate stupidity. This almost needs to be written on walls. Calvinism is a pagan religion of fate, it is a materialistic system that actually denies God. There are so many Points at which this evil invention can be criticised. Calvinism does not understand that Jesus and God are of the same essence. It think it does , but obviously that it not the case. It is wrong in a blasphemous way on the incarnation, the Trinity, soteriology,  the Nature of God. EVERYTHING. And its founder was as Close to a pharisee as one could come. He was unmerciful, pitiless and uncharitable and by his action and thought seems to have proved that he believed Only in the God and Christ of his own invention and imagination, since what he did to sinners was the opposite to what Christ did. This is just unacceptable. I know about calvinists who discuss whether it is correct to consider catholics their Brothers and sisters in Christ. The question is rather if it is correct to consider calvinists who truly Believe in their heavenly egoistic and utallitarian system as brothers and sisters in Christ. To me, when really diving in to what believing in this system actually means, I consider it to be among the worst ideologies on Earth, almost as evil as nazism and racism, since calvinists turn God in to a sadistic demiurge and monster dictator. THIS is just blasphemous and I thank God I am starting to realize the wickedness behind this stupid delusion. Calvinism does not reveal who God is. It reveals what their followers are like if they truly Believe this. Either brainwashed or sadistic egoists. 
Belatedly, I have to ask "bitter much, there?"
I'm hoping that the over-the-top characterization (i.e. "I consider it to be among the worst ideologies on Earth") is due to a lack of exposure to some of the alternatives.  I'm not going to justify Calvin's positions and errors (which, IMO, are myriad), but this seems like a bit much.
 
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A tool which I used to dissuade myself of this when I was a protestant was reductio ad absurdum. If one takes calvinism to the extreme, it's not an absurd end, it's a frightening one.
 

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What's the extreme?
 
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From what I understand of Calvinism is that it’s traditional teaching is a guaranteed hell & its current, bogus “inclusive” tendency of a guaranteed heaven. Either extreme seems to apply flawed, human wisdom in distortion of the Divine will & almost obliterates our God given free will ( Romans 2, Ezekiel 18:4-9, John 5:24-30 etc.).
 
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What's the extreme?
Ask a calvinist what happens to babies which are aborted. You'll get a runaround answer by those who 'know' better. Or in my case, I've been told explicitly they are going to hell as they haven't been able to repent and haven't asked Jesus into their life.
 

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Ask a calvinist what happens to babies which are aborted. You'll get a runaround answer by those who 'know' better. Or in my case, I've been told explicitly they are going to hell as they haven't been able to repent and haven't asked Jesus into their life.
Damn.
 

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Recent heated debate between Orthodox Deacon and Calvinist:

 

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Ask a calvinist what happens to babies which are aborted. You'll get a runaround answer by those who 'know' better. Or in my case, I've been told explicitly they are going to hell as they haven't been able to repent and haven't asked Jesus into their life.
Indeed. My grandfather often complained about the Church of Christ near his home because they "preached babies into Hell." By which he meant that they literally and explicitly said the deceased infants of the grieving mothers in their church were damned in Hell.
 
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Recent heated debate between Orthodox Deacon and Calvinist:

Thanks for sharing this. Only partly way through with it, and it is maddening. The Calvinist's behavior here is juvenile. Complete disregard for humility, and really a rejection of the purpose of the video which was to debate in some form. Beyond cringe. Having a hard time completing this.

One of the YT commenters stated the debate was from God to test the Fr Deacon's patience lol.
 

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Thanks for sharing this. Only partly way through with it, and it is maddening. The Calvinist's behavior here is juvenile. Complete disregard for humility, and really a rejection of the purpose of the video which was to debate in some form. Beyond cringe. Having a hard time completing this.

One of the YT commenters stated the debate was from God to test the Fr Deacon's patience lol.
Thanks for sharing this. Only partly way through with it, and it is maddening. The Calvinist's behavior here is juvenile. Complete disregard for humility, and really a rejection of the purpose of the video which was to debate in some form. Beyond cringe. Having a hard time completing this.

One of the YT commenters stated the debate was from God to test the Fr Deacon's patience lol.
I have no room to talk since I can be pretty juvenile at times and struggle a lot with humility, but yes it was definitely a cringe fest. 😬
 
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