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Can Someone Explain This?

James2

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Linus7 said:
You're probably right; they were probably thinking in terms of a pope too ill or incapacitated to carry out his duties.

But it depends on how one defines a complete impediment.
There are precedents for the deposition of a pope. The last time it happened was at the Council of Constance, which ended the Great Western Schism early in the 15th century. The council deposed or secured the resignations of all three papal claimants and elected a new pope, Martin V. Clearly this was an extraordinary measure taken to resolve an extraordinary situation. It would take a whole lot more than a pope kissing the Koran to trigger such a reaction today. Presumably in the event of an insane or obstinately heretical pope the college of cardinals could declare that an emergency exists and take steps to resolve the situation. Failing that, a council of all bishops might have to be summoned. After all, it was a division in the college of cardinals that precipitated and prolonged the Western Schism in the first place, and it took two councils before it was resolved.

James
 

Amadeus

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Posted by Mor Ephrem:

The Pope is the supreme legislative authority in the Roman Catholic Church.
Wrong! ;)

The Pope is the supreme executive, legislative, and judicial authority in the Catholic Church! ;D

Amado
 

carpo-rusyn

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As an RC I certainly appreciate all the EOs and EO wanna be's explaining how our patriarch can be deposed. Perhaps you might like to help depose him? Of course you'd need to be RC first. ;D

So he kissed the Koran. Big deal! We don't need to justify it. The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan. Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.

Carpo-Rusyn
 

Mor Ephrem

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James2 said:
There are precedents for the deposition of a pope. The last time it happened was at the Council of Constance, which ended the Great Western Schism early in the 15th century. The council deposed or secured the resignations of all three papal claimants and elected a new pope, Martin V.
Yes, but if I'm not mistaken, the Council of Constance also taught that a General Council has authority even over a Pope of Rome, and Rome rejected/rejects that teaching (and the Council itself?). Also, with three claimants to the papal throne, who would a council choose to depose? Picking and choosing would only make things worse. It only makes sense to depose all three and elect someone new. And did the Council actually depose anyone? It's no big deal if a Council was able to persuade these guys to resign, but did the Council actually depose?

Clearly this was an extraordinary measure taken to resolve an extraordinary situation. It would take a whole lot more than a pope kissing the Koran to trigger such a reaction today. Presumably in the event of an insane or obstinately heretical pope the college of cardinals could declare that an emergency exists and take steps to resolve the situation. Failing that, a council of all bishops might have to be summoned. After all, it was a division in the college of cardinals that precipitated and prolonged the Western Schism in the first place, and it took two councils before it was resolved.
If the College of Cardinals is confronted with an insane Pope, and they declare that an emergency exists, and enact whatever special laws govern such emergencies, that is one thing. But that would be something that I think would count as a complete impediment to the exercise of the papal ministry. No problem there. There is no provision that I know of (granted, I haven't read all the relevant canons in the '83 Code) for the College of Bishops doing anything about such a situation. And a General Council can only be called by a Pope; in the absence of one (interregnum or an emergency situation), I don't think you can have one.

An obstinately heretical Pope? I don't even know how that can be a possibility after Vatican I. I've asked several Catholics that I consider knowledgeable about that possibility and never received a satisfactory answer. I'd like to learn more about this.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Amadeus said:
Posted by Mor Ephrem:Wrong! ;)

The Pope is the supreme executive, legislative, and judicial authority in the Catholic Church! ;D

Amado
I knew that! :D
 

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[So he kissed the Koran. Big deal! We don't need to justify it. The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan. Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.]

What does one have to do with the other?

Orthodoc
 

DerekMK

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So he kissed the Koran. Big deal! We don't need to justify it. The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan. Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.
The sultan appointed the EP because of an Islamic Military occupation of Greece. As far as I know Italy is not under Islamic dictatorship. If takes a severe congnitve malfunction to equate oppression by an invading empire to a free man kissing the Qu'ran.
 

Mor Ephrem

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carpo-rusyn said:
As an RC I certainly appreciate all the EOs and EO wanna be's explaining how our patriarch can be deposed. Perhaps you might like to help depose him? Of course you'd need to be RC first. ;D
I'm not interested in deposing anyone. I'm just trying to say that, to my knowledge, a Pope cannot be deposed. If he can be, please let me know how that could happen, since it would help me finally figure that out, and possibly raise other questions.

So he kissed the Koran. Big deal! We don't need to justify it.
It can't be justified, IMO.

The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan. Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.
But how is this a recognition of Islam as a religion? Surely you are not implying that a patriarch being appointed by a (Muslim) governing authority is the same as a patriarch kissing the Muslim holy book?
 

jbc1949

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+¥+¦+¦-ä+¼-ü+¦++-é said:
. . . As far as I know Italy is not under Islamic dictatorship. . . .
At the rate the Moslems are increasing in numbers in Italy through immigration and making babies, your statement will likely no longer be true in 50 to 150 years! ;D



 

Anastasios

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"You guys wanted the turban, not the mitre."

Ha! They were hoping the Latins would show up until the last second to save them from the Turks. Such sentiments as what you wrote were true for some but certainly not of the majority of the populace of Constantinople.

As for my thoughts, I think JP2 is a wonderful man but we just need to admit that it was wrong what he did. He doesn't need to be deposed or kicked out or whatever, but he should retract his actions, plain and simple.

anastasios
 

Anastasios

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I can sympathize with what happened to JP2, because the Muslims probably engineered it for a photo-op. Let me explain. When I was in India, my ex-fiancee upon wishing me a safe journey thrust a Koran into my face and told me to kiss it to receive her blessing for a safe journey [a good argument for not marrying non-Christians! Thank God I got back with my now-wife!]. Anyway, instinctively I kissed it when it was trust in my face because 1) I am used to kissing books put in my face and 2) I was really floored what was going on. So I can **understand** JP2's action.

What I **don't** understand is his reaction...You see, immediately after I realized what I had done, I asked Jesus to forgive me and went to confession for it. Sin absolved, no problema, thank you Lord for forgiving me. Maybe JP2 privately did so, but a public action demands a public penance. All he would have to do is say he is sorry, but instead, the "Pope is always right" crowd try to defend this scandelous action.

anastasios
 

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Linus7 said:
Not to stir the pot, but can anyone tell me who the Orthodox-looking man (presumably a patriarch) in this photo is?

This is supposed to be a picture from some sort of ecumenical prayer service at Assisi in Italy on October 27, 1986.

Note the presence of the Dalai Lama.

Although I agree with the fact that the Pope of Rome, kissing the Quran, is a very scandalous act--especially given his public role among Catholics--and it sends the wrong message (IMO), I do find the Orthodox participation in both Assisi events to be very disturbing. Remember, the 1st Assisi event, in 1986, was the event wherein the Dalai Lama placed a statue of Buddha on a Roman Catholic altar. Although we Orthodox can criticize the Roman Catholic hierarchy for sponsoring such an event, that same Assisi event was enthusiastically supported by multiple Orthodox jurisdictions, who sent their representative hierarchs to this religious pow-wow.

In humble pie,
Stephen
 

Anastasios

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When the Buddhist monk did that the RC's immediately ran over and took it down. Also, read the Pope's speech at Assissi. He told the leaders of all religions that peace would only come from Christ.

anastasios
 

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carpo-rusyn said:
The EP used to be appointed by the Sultan. Remember you guys wanted the turban not the mitre.

Carpo-Rusyn
Typical inaccurate "spin". Big difference from 'approval' (meaning pay-off) and 'appointment'.
And ,YES, still the turban , not the miter, any day. But I'd rather have neither.

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Rome is not under an islamic regime, but remember, the Pope did this when visiting Saddam's Iraq, whose minority Chaldeans were most definitely persecuted. Nobody here has a right to judge. Who knows what would have happened if the Pope mistepped with the Iraqi Muslims?
 

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[Ha! They were hoping the Latins would show up until the last second to save them from the Turks. Such sentiments as what you wrote were true for some but certainly not of the majority of the populace of Constantinople.]

I'm sorry but have you forgotten that there were Latins defending New Rome from the Turks at the end? Do all EO's have selective memory loss? Oh well it seems they do.

I think Caff raises a good point about the Chaldean minority. The pope has to take into account certain political realities such as that there is a minority Christian population in Iraq that he is responsible for. The pope kissing the Koran doesn't imply he is now a Muslim or that he has abandoned Christ as some have claimed. I am sorry that EO patriarchs aren't faced with similar pastoral problems, but then again the RCC tends not to be ethnic like the EO's, we take anybody.

Carpo-Rusyn
 

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I am sorry that EO patriarchs aren't faced with similar pastoral problems, but then again the RCC tends not to be ethnic like the EO's, we take anybody.
Actually the pastoral issue is more Orthodox, as there are more Orthodox living under the rule of Islam than RCs. But the Orthodox New Martyrs dealt with it by giving thier lives rather than worshipping the demon allah of Islam.

 

carpo-rusyn

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We too have our martyrs but then again they're RCs so probably don't count.

Allah a demon? Where on earth do you get this stuff? You know I think you might have more in common with Bin Laden as he views us Christians as worshipping a demon as well. Extremism in all forms is just wrong.

CR
 

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In Christianity any "revelation" that comes and denies Christ is demonic. There is also evidence to suggest "Allah" comes from combining several pre-Islamic Arab deities. Look no further than Saint Augustine who calles the pagan "gods" demons - are he and I in the same terrorist cell?

 

carpo-rusyn

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An EO idnetifying with St Augustine! I'm shocked. As for Allah being a amalgam of several Arabic dieties, please cite your source?
Calling Allah a demon or Jesus a false prophet displays a extremism that leads people to drive truck bombs.

Carpo-Rusyn
 

jbc1949

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anastasios said:
. . .

All he would have to do is say he is sorry, but instead, the "Pope is always right" crowd try to defend this scandelous action.

anastasios
Just so we can make this clear, the "Pope is always right" crowd likely comprises a subset of those Catholics called Conservative. The Liberals and Modernists in the RCC don't particularly care for the guy but also don't think that kissing the Koran is a big deal. The Traditionalists--I refer to those in union with Rome and not of the SSPX, et. al.--do not generally say the "Pope is always right" and certainly don't believe he is always right. Traditionalists do not hold with what he has done but are also not ones IMHO who will call for his head on a chopping block.

Catholics are becoming a diverse people Ugh! I hate that PC word but I used it anyway.
 

DerekMK

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I don't see any Orthodox people blowing themselves up.

Try the book The Sword of the Prophet for starters.
 
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This is quickly degenerating into a Catholic vs. Orthodox rant. Let's just be Christian and emphasize what we have in common for a while...like Saints, Fathers, the Eucharist, and Tradition.
 

Mor Ephrem

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The Caffeinator said:
Rome is not under an islamic regime, but remember, the Pope did this when visiting Saddam's Iraq, whose minority Chaldeans were most definitely persecuted. Nobody here has a right to judge. Who knows what would have happened if the Pope mistepped with the Iraqi Muslims?
I don't think the Muslims would've been terribly offended if the Pope respectfully accepted the book, maybe even opened it up and looked at it appreciatively, without kissing it.

And I was under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that the Pope never got to visit Iraq. I thought I remembered reading that a delegation from Iraq had to visit the Vatican since he wasn't able to travel there, and they did some stuff in Rome, and it was in this context that the incident happened. When did the Pope visit Iraq?
 
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IIRC 1999, but it is a moot point. He still had the Chaldeans to think of. I am not an expert on Islamic culture, but I have a friend from Iraq. (Chaldean by culture). I will ask him what he makes of this.
 

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There is a lesson to be learn from the fall of Constantinople and the council of Florence regarding sacrificing faith for temporal security.

+æ+¦+¦+¦ +£+¦-ü+¦+¦ -Ç-ü+¦-â+¦+¦-à +¦ -à -Ç+¦-ü ++++-ë++!
 

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As for Allah being a amalgam of several Arabic dieties, please cite your source?
Calling Allah a demon or Jesus a false prophet displays a extremism that leads people to drive truck bombs.
The Quran itself testifies that there are other Gods in Islam !!!
In Surah EL-Nejm, verse 18-20 , when it was first "inspired" (according to muslims), it was inspired to read something like this :" ELLAT and UZZA And Mona, their intercession is accepted (by Allah)." These three Gods were Gods in the old arabic (before Islam) Mekka and had their statues around Kabba.

The occasion was a prayer in the Masjed (a mosque, but where all the religions would go and worship) which gathered the opponents of Muhamed with Muhamed, in Mekka, before he grew powerful. he spent 13 years in Mekka and had only 80 followers, mostly slaves and women ;D.
To win the pagan worshippers over, he told them that their Gods as indicated in the verse, are not totally false. Their intercession is accepted, meaning they are less than Allah but still divine. His opponents made peace with him.

This is in Kurtubi, Ibn Katheer, Tabari, Galelein commentary. These are the authentic books of Islam and the oldest and the ones acknowledged by muslims. They are mentioned under "reason for inspiration of verses" section.

Now, you won't find these verses nowadays in Quran. After Muhamed grew stronger in Madina after his flight to this city, he didn't need his opponents peace anymore. In fact, he cancelled all the peace treaties with them.
Anyhow, as mentioned in these books, Gebreel ( arabic for Gabriel, the angel,may God forgive us for using the name of the holy archangel Gabriel in connection to Islam) came to Muhamed and told him that the above mentioned verses, in which he acknowledged the Pagan Gods, was actually inspired by Satan, not God. Hence the term "Satanic verses" which caused a controversy many years ago by Salman Rushdy, the indian muslim writer.

The verses were abrogated, Gebreel told him the right verses and not the one in which Satan intervened with divine inspiration. Abbrogation is also a pillar in Islam "theology" . Meaning, that verses which were peaceful in the beginning of the Quran, to win over christians (mostly arians and ibonians ) and Jews, were abrogated by very violent verses in the end of the Quran, when Muhamed gained power .

Did you ever hear the Islamic prayer "Allah AKbar" ? In arabic, this verse , grammatically does not make sense. It is translated " Allah greater.....", fullstop. Akbar means , as a word, greater....But, another deep look would give it the only meaning it could have and ratify the meaning it originally had, which is "Allah is Akbar". Akbar is name of the High God in the old Arabic Pagan religions. Of course muslims don;t think so, nowadays, and they might not know, sadly.

A good book on Islam would be " The Sources of Islam" by Alfred Tisdall.
It lists how Islam borrowed from different religions and cultures.

All the other resources that list the different cources of Islam are in arabic.
I will list them anyway:

1- " Priest and Prophet" by Abou Mussa El-Hariri (killed by muslims)
This book talks the christian background of Muhamed and his devotion to an arian or ibionian priest called )Warraqa Ibn Nufel. Most interesting, the first marriage of Muhamed was to the cousin of this priest, a christian woman. The wedding was a christian, and the priest (Warraqa) led the ceremony in "christian" rites . This indicates that Muhamed could probably have been baptized before the marriage. Note this: Muhamed's name is not found before. It is not a common name, actually nobody heard of a Muhamed before the Islamic prophet. Note, that the name in arabic consists of four letter. Changing the second letter with a 3, an arabic letter not prounounced in English, the name would be Mu3amed, which means "The Baptized". Interesting, isn't it ?
Except for the issue with the name, all other facts can be backed up by researching Islamic sources Muslims acknowledge to be authentic and authoritive. The research in Muhamed's life would make it very possible that the above mentioned regarding his name is very credible.

2- "The problem of Islamic Mind" by Mustafa Guha (killed by muslims)

3- " Islam as a christian heresy " by Ilais Murr ( has a price on his head by muslims)
Very interesting as it discusses the character of Issa (Jesus) in Islam and how it is very much an arian point of view (nestorian at times).

For more info, if I may post a link , you can visit:

www.islamreview.com
www.answering-islam.org

I would rather spend time in learning the christian theology from the Fathers . Also, reading about the Real Islam, and not the westernized version, defiles the mind. But in light of the fact that many people have a very distorted view of Islam, it might be helpful.

Peace,
Stavro
 

Aristocles

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As usualy, Stavro, you are a wealth of information. I was aware of the early history here, but not the tie-ins in the Quran. I have two translations of that book and do sometimes read a verse or so; but I just can't bring myself to read the whole thing.
Thanks, again.
Demetri
 

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You're right, Mor. The Pope never went to Iraq. He was hoping to visit as part of a pilgrimage to all the important Biblical lands, starting with Patriarch Abraham's homeland. However, Hussein said it would be too dangerous for the Pope to enter Iraq.

In Christ,
Anthony

Mor Ephrem said:
I don't think the Muslims would've been terribly offended if the Pope respectfully accepted the book, maybe even opened it up and looked at it appreciatively, without kissing it.

And I was under the impression (perhaps mistaken) that the Pope never got to visit Iraq. I thought I remembered reading that a delegation from Iraq had to visit the Vatican since he wasn't able to travel there, and they did some stuff in Rome, and it was in this context that the incident happened. When did the Pope visit Iraq?
 

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+¥+¦+¦-ä+¼-ü+¦++-é said:
In Christianity any "revelation" that comes and denies Christ is demonic. There is also evidence to suggest "Allah" comes from combining several pre-Islamic Arab deities. Look no further than Saint Augustine who calles the pagan "gods" demons - are he and I in the same terrorist cell?
As mentioned in the past history of this thread, it is allowable theological opinion for the Christian to hold or believe that Muslims worship a false god (and yes Islam is a synthesis of many elements, including pagan)--without implicating the name of God in this issue in order to support that point. Nektarios used a lower-case 'a' in a previous post, which does not make his statement offensive.

But the topic of the Arabic name's origins and proper use has been violently addressed and re-addressed in previous threads, wherein I already presented hypotheses on the matter. Fact remains that 'Allah' remains a holy name, used by pre-Islamic-era Christian Arabs, and should never be attacked, and so I request again that listmembers conduct themselves properly and carefully when employing the name 'Allah', and not flirt with this sensitive topic and start a repetition of the arguments that have been already been beaten to death. The list's archives are available for the inquirer. The case for the identity of W/whom (depending on your belief) Muslims worship is always open for discussion and exploration, but this rests on points of theology, not on etymology, the latter crossing into territory that is Christian as well as Muslim.

Stavro is right about the phrase 'Allahu Akbar', which in its literal translation, would mean 'God is greater', not 'great'. Bop the next translator who uses the conventional translation in news reports.

In IC XC
Samer
 

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I am amazed that no RC has really come out here and condemned what the Pope did in kissing the Koran or Quran (or whatever this week's spelling of that book's name is).

It really makes me wonder about the wisdom of placing all of one's religious eggs so thoroughly in one very human basket.

If someone wants to find things done wrong by various Orthodox bishops, I think he will surprised that the Orthodox would join him in condemning those things. We believe in obeying our bishops, but only when they are not obviously contradicting the Apostolic Tradition and betraying the faith.

I agree with Anastasios when he wrote that the Pope should have just admitted that he made a mistake.

I think we would all respect that.
 

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anastasios said:
When the Buddhist monk did that the RC's immediately ran over and took it down. Also, read the Pope's speech at Assissi. He told the leaders of all religions that peace would only come from Christ.

anastasios
I am relieved to hear that.

Why invite unrepentant Buddhists in the first place?

Can one imagine St. Peter conducting some sort of "ecumenical" prayer service and inviting the leaders of the various pagan cults of his day?

I can't.
 

Anastasios

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Linus,

But Paul preached in the Acropolis to the leading pagans of his day. I think getting those fellows there all in once place and then preaching Christ was a good idea. We can see that it didn't have much effect though, so the repeat "Assissi 2" *was* unnecessary.

anastasios
 

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Of course I agree the Pope's action was scandalous and a grave mistake. No apologies need be made about thinking so.

In IC XC
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anastasios said:
Linus,

But Paul preached in the Acropolis to the leading pagans of his day. I think getting those fellows there all in once place and then preaching Christ was a good idea. We can see that it didn't have much effect though, so the repeat "Assissi 2" *was* unnecessary.

anastasios
Come on, anastasios.

How can one possibly equate St. Paul's evangelistic efforts with the sort of sappy ecumenism that occurs at gatherings like the one is Assisi?

Did St. Paul pray with the pagan leaders of his day and stand by while they invoked their gods?

Did he appear in concert with them as if the Way of Christ was just one alternative among many?

 

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Well, I'll weigh in as a Catholic. I think it was a bad idea, it has caused scandal. However, Catholics accept Muslims as children of Abraham, and worshipers of the one true God, albeit it in a defective way. The kiss was meant as a sign of this belief and respect for Muslims not an endorsement of Isalm itself. However, given the kissing of the Altar, the Gospel, Icons and each other is a liturgical act it should not have been done because of the confusion it creates.

However, I do not think anyone other than this forum, the SSPX, Sedevacantists, and the Fundamentalist "the Pope is the antichrist" crowd has raised a stink about it so the Pope is probably unaware there is scandal over it or that anyone wants a public apology for it.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 

Anastasios

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Linus,

I think the issue here is, DID the Buddhists pray to Buddha? Did the Muslims pray to Allah? Does anyone have any texts from Assisi? Maybe we should examine what really went on there.

I think it took a lot of guts for JP2 to preach Christ to pagans. Hardly syncretistic. However, as I said before, such a meeting didn't seem to have any effect so there was no need for "Assisi 2"

anastasios
 

Linus7

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However, Catholics accept Muslims as children of Abraham, and worshipers of the one true God, albeit it in a defective way
From the Koran:

"O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is better for you!) - Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son...The Messiah will never scorn to be a slave unto Allah."

"And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example, behold! The folk laugh out, and say: Are our gods better, or is he? They raise not the objection save for argument. Nay! but they are a contentious folk. He is nothing but a slave on whom we bestowed favor, and we made him a pattern for the Children of Israel. And had we willed it we would have set among you angels to be viceroys in the earth".

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah. But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. ... And on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them." (Koran, 4:156-159)

From the Word of God:

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me' " (John 14:6).

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:22-23).

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it" (John 8:42-44).

 

Linus7

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anastasios said:
Linus,

I think the issue here is, DID the Buddhists pray to Buddha? Did the Muslims pray to Allah? Does anyone have any texts from Assisi? Maybe we should examine what really went on there.

I think it took a lot of guts for JP2 to preach Christ to pagans. Hardly syncretistic. However, as I said before, such a meeting didn't seem to have any effect so there was no need for "Assisi 2"

anastasios
I think you are really stretching here to excuse the inexcusable.

Did the Buddhists pray to Buddha? Did the Muslims pray to Allah?

If they are invited to an ecumenical service and to pray, and they do appear to be praying, to whom are we to suppose that they are praying?

Can we read their minds?

Ecumenical services like Assisi are not designed to evangelize the pagans. If they were, the pagans would be seated in the audience, listening. They would be told to repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Is that what they were told?

Ecumenical events feature the leaders of various world religions acting together as if equals and representatives of equally valid paths to the ill-defined "truth."

It is my personal opinion that they serve only to pave the way for the Antichrist.
 
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