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Can Someone Explain This?

Anastasios

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Linus,

Did they offer prayers at all? I am asking, not stretching. From your postings it is clear that you don't have any concrete facts as to what went on at Assisi. So all I am saying is, let's get the program and analyze what went on. I am not trying to excuse the unexcusable--that's silly as I have not said Assisi was a good thing--in fact, I clearly said the result was failure! Really, sometimes you push ideas onto other people that they don't subscribe to, and that's not good.

anastasios
 

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I just read what you write, anastasios.

Maybe it's not as clear as you think it is.
 

Anastasios

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Here is what the Pope actually said:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1986/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19861027_prayer-peace-assisi-final_en.html

PASTORAL VISIT TO PERUGIA AND ASSISI

ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES AND ECCLESIAL COMMUNITIES
AND OF THE WORLD RELIGIONS

Basilica of Saint Francis
27 October 1986



My Brothers and Sisters,
Heads and Representatives of the Christian Churches
and Ecclesial Communities and of the World Religions,
Dear Friends,

1. IN CONCLUDING this World Day of Prayer for Peace, to which you have come from many parts of the world, kindly accepting my invitation, I would like now to express my feelings, as a brother and friend, but also as a believer in Jesus Christ, and, in the Catholic Church, the first witness of faith in him.

In relation to the last prayer, the Christian one, in the series we have all heard, I profess here anew my conviction, shared by all Christians, that in Jesus Christ, as Saviour of all, true peace is to be found, "peace to those who are far off and peace to those who are near". His birth was greeted by the angels’ song: "Glory to God in the highest and peace among men with whom he is pleased". He preached love among all, even among foes, proclaimed blessed those who work for peace and through his Death and Resurrection he brought about reconciliation between heaven and earth. To use an expression of Paul the Apostle: "He is our peace".

2. It is, in fact, my faith conviction which has made me turn to you, representatives of the Christian Churches and Ecclesial Communities and World Religions, in deep love and respect.

With the other Christians we share many convictions and, particularly, in what concerns peace.
With the World Religions we share a common respect of and obedience to conscience, which teaches all of us to seek the truth, to love and serve all individuals and people, and therefore to make peace among nations.

Yes, we all hold conscience and obedience to the voice of conscience to be an essential element in the road towards a better and peaceful world.

Could it be otherwise, since all men and women in this world have a common nature, a common origin and a common destiny?

If there are many and important differences among us, there is also a common ground, whence to operate together in the solution of this dramatic challenge of our age: true peace or catastrophic war?

3. Yes, there is the dimension of prayer, which in the very real diversity of religions tries to express communication with a Power above all our human forces.

Peace depends basically on this Power, which we call God, and as Christians believe has revealed himself in Christ.

This is the meaning of this World Day of Prayer.

For the first time in history, we have come together from every where, Christian Churches and Ecclesial Communities, and World Religions, in this sacred place dedicated to Saint Francis, to witness before the world, each according to his own conviction, about the transcendent quality of peace.

The form and content of our prayers are very different, as we have seen, and there can be no question of reducing them to a kind of common denominator.

4. Yes, in this very difference we have perhaps discovered anew that, regarding the problem of peace and its relation to religious commitment, there is something which binds us together.

The challenge of peace, as it is presently posed to every human conscience, is the problem of a reasonable quality of life for all, the problem of survival for humanity, the problem of life and death.
In the face of such a problem, two things seem to have supreme importance and both of them are common to us all.

The first is the inner imperative of the moral conscience, which enjoins us to respect, protect and promote human life, from the womb to the deathbed, for individuals and peoples, but especially for the weak, the destitute, the derelict: the imperative to overcome selfishness, greed and the spirit of vengeance.

The second common thing is the conviction that peace goes much beyond human efforts, particularly in the present plight of the world, and therefore that its source and realization is to be sought in that Reality beyond all of us.

This is why each of us prays for peace. Even if we think, as we do, that the relation between that Reality and the gift of peace is a different one, according to our respective religious convictions, we all affirm that such a relation exists.

This is what we express by praying for it.

I humbly repeat here my own conviction: peace bears the name of Jesus Christ.

5. But, at the same time and in the same breath, I am ready to acknowledge that Catholics have not always been faithful to this affirmation of faith. We have not been always "peacemakers".

For ourselves, therefore, but also perhaps, in a sense, for all, his encounter at Assisi is an act of penance. We have prayed, each in his own way, we have fasted, we have marched together.
In this way we have tried to open our hearts to the divine reality beyond us and to our fellow men and women.

Yes, while we have fasted, we have kept in mind the sufferings which senseless wars have brought about and are still bringing about on humanity. Thereby we have tried to be spiritually close to the millions who are the victims of hunger throughout the world.

While we have walked in silence, we have reflected on the path our human family treads: either in hostility, if we fail to accept one another in love; or as a common journey to our lofty destiny, if we realize that other people are our brothers and sisters. The very fact that we have come to Assisi from various quarters of the world is in itself a sign of this common path which humanity is called to tread. Either we learn to walk together in peace and harmony, or we drift apart and ruin ourselves and others. We hope that this pilgrimage to Assisi has taught us anew to be aware of the common origin and common destiny of humanity. Let us see in it an anticipation of what God would like the developing history of humanity to be: a fraternal journey in which we accompany one another towards the transcendent goal which he sets for us.

Prayer, fasting, pilgrimage.

6. This Day at Assisi has helped us become more aware of our religious commitments. But is has also made the world, looking at us through the media, more aware of the responsibility of each religion regarding problems of war and peace.

More perhaps than ever before in history, the intrinsic link between an authentic religious attitude and the great good of peace has become evident to all.

What a tremendous weight for human shoulders to carry! But at the same time what a marvellous, exhilarating call to follow.

Although prayer is in itself action, this does not excuse us from working for peace. Here we are acting as the heralds of the moral awareness of humanity as such, humanity that wants peace, needs peace.

7. There is no peace without a passionate love for peace. There is no peace without a relentless determination to achieve peace.

Peace awaits its prophets. Together we have filled our eyes with visions of peace: they release energies for a new language of peace, for new gestures of peace, gestures which will shatter the fatal chains of divisions inherited from history or spawned by modern ideologies.

Peace awaits its builders. Let us stretch our hands towards our brothers and sisters, to encourage them to build peace upon the four pillars of truth, justice, love and freedom.

Peace is a workshop, open to all and not just to specialists, savants and strategists. Peace is a universal responsibility: it comes about through a thousand little acts in daily life. By their daily way of living with others, people choose for or against peace. We entrust the cause of peace especially to the young. May young people help to free history from the wrong paths along which humanity strays.
Peace is in the hands not only of individuals but of nations. It is the nations that have the honour of basing their peacemaking activity upon the conviction of the sacredness of human dignity and the recognition of the unquestionable equality of people with one another. We earnestly invite the leaders of the nations and of the international organizations to be untiring in bringing in structures of dialogue wherever peace is under threat or already compromised. We offer our support to their often exhausting efforts to maintain or restore pea+ô. We renew our encouragement to the United Nations Organization, that it may respond fully to the breadth and height of its universal mission of peace.

8. In answer to the appeal I made from Lyons in France, on the day which we Catholics celebrate as the feast of Saint Francis, we hope that arms have fallen silent, that attacks have ceased. This would be a first significant result of the spiritual efficacy of prayer. In fact, this appeal has been shared by many hearts and lips everywhere in the world, especially where people suffer from war and its consequences. It is vital to choose peace and the means to obtain it. Peace, so frail in health, demands constant and intensive care. Along this path, we shall advance with sure and redoubled steps, for there is no doubt that people have and never had so many means for building true peace as today. Humanity has entered an era of increased solidarity and hunger for social justice. This is our chance. It is also our task, which prayer helps us to face.

9. What we have done today at Assisi, praying and witnessing to our commitment to peace, we must continue to do every day of our life. For what we have done today’s is vital for the world. If the world is going to continue, and men and women are to survive in it, the world cannot do without prayer.

This is the permanent lesson of Assisi: it is the lesson of Saint Francis who embodied an attractive ideal for us; it is the lesson of Saint Clare, his first follower. It is an ideal composed of meekness, humility, a deep sense of God and a commitment to serve all. Saint Francis was a man of peace.

We recall that he abandoned the military career he had followed for a while in his youth, and discovered the value of poverty, the value of a simple and austere life, in imitation of Jesus Christ whom he intended to serve. Saint Clare was the woman, par excellence, of prayer. Her union with God in prayer sustained Francis and his followers, as it sustains us today. Francis and Clare are examples of peace: with God, with oneself, with all men and women in this world. May this holy man and this holy woman inspire all people today to have the same strength of character and love of God and neighbour to continue on the path we must walk together.

10. Mossi dall’esempio di san Francesco e di santa Chiara, veri discepoli di Cristo, e convinti dall’esperienza di questo giorno che abbiamo vissuto insieme, noi ci impegniamo a riesaminare le nostre coscienze, ad ascoltare pi+¦ fedelmente la loro voce, a purificare i nostri spiriti dal pregiudizio, dall’odio, dall’inimicizia, dalla gelosia e dall’invidia. Cercheremo di essere operatori di pace nel pensiero e nell’azione, con la mente e col cuore rivolti all’unit+á della famiglia umana. E invitiamo tutti i nostri fratelli e sorelle che ci ascoltano perch+¬ facciano lo stesso.

Lo facciamo con la consapevolezza dei nostri limiti umani e consci del fatto che, lasciati a noi stessi, falliremmo. Riaffermiamo quindi e riconosciamo che la nostra vita e la nostra pace futura dipendono sempre da un dono che Dio ci fa.

In questo spirito, invitiamo i leaders mondiali a prender atto della nostra umile implorazione a Dio per la pace. Ma chiediamo pure ad essi di riconoscere le loro responsabilit+á e di dedicarsi con rinnovato impegno al compito della pace, a porre in atto le strategie della pace con coraggio e lungimiranza.

11. Consentitemi ora di rivolgermi a ciascuno di voi, rappresentanti delle Chiese cristiane e delle comunit+á ecclesiali e delle religioni mondiali, che siete venuti ad Assisi per questo giorno di preghiera, di digiuno e di pellegrinaggio. Vi ringrazio nuovamente per aver accettato il mio invito a venire qui per questo atto di testimonianza davanti al mondo. Estendo pure il mio ringraziamento a tutti coloro che hanno reso possibile la nostra presenza qui, particolarmente ai nostri fratelli e sorelle di Assisi.

E soprattutto rendo grazie a Dio e Padre di Ges+¦ Cristo per questo giorno di grazia per il mondo, per ciascuno di voi, e per me stesso. Lo faccio invocando la vergine Maria, regina della pace. Lo faccio con le parole della preghiera che +¿ comunemente attribuita a san Francesco, perch+¬ ben ne rispecchia lo spirito: “Signore, fa’ di me uno strumento / della tua pace: / dove +¿ odio, ch’io porti l’amore, / dove +¿ offesa, ch’io porti il perdono, / dove +¿ discordia, ch’io porti l’unione, / dove +¿ dubbio, ch’io porti la fede, / dove +¿ errore, ch’io porti la verit+á, / dove +¿ disperazione, ch’io porti la speranza, / dove +¿ tristezza, ch’io porti la gioia, / dove sono le tenebre, ch’io porti la luce. / Maestro, fa’ che io non miri tanto: / ad essere consolato, quanto / a consolare, / ad essere compreso, quanto / a comprendere, / ad essere amato, quanto / ad amare: / poich+¬ donando si riceve, / perdonando si +¿ perdonati, / morendo si risuscita a vita eterna”.

Greetings in other languages:

A TOUTES les hautes personnalit+¬s pr+¬sentes et +á tous ceux qui se sont associ+¬s +á cette initiative de pri+¿re, j’adresse un salut fraternel et un message d’esp+¬rance: la paix est possible, si tous les hommes veulent progresser dans la v+¬rit+¬, fondement de la paix.

Pour la premi+¿re fois sans doute dans l’histoire humaine, Eglises chr+¬tiennes et religions de toutes les parties du monde se sont r+¬unies en un m+¬me lieu pour montrer que la paix est un imp+¬ratif de la conscience des croyants engag+¬s dans la recherche de la v+¬rit+¬ sur Dieu, sur notre destin+¬e, sur l’histoire le l’humanit+¬.

J’invite tous les hommes de bonne volont+¬ +á s’engager avec une g+¬n+¬rosit+¬ renouvel+¬e pour la promotion de la paix.

Deseo presentar mi m+ís cordial saludo, junto con mi vivo agradecimiento, a todas las personas que desde aqu+¡ o desde cualquier parte del mundo han querido asociarse a esta Jornada Mundial de Oraci+¦n por la Paz.

Hago votos y aliento a todos a un renovado compromiso a ser constructores de paz entre las naciones, entre los pueblos, en las sociedades, en las familias, en los corazones y en la conciencia de cada uno.

Agrade+ºo a todas as pessoas que, de uma ou de outra forma, se associaram conosco a - esta iniciativa de ora+º+úo. Cada um se sinta pessoalmente empenhado em ser testemunha da - paz e pacificador dos homens, e compromissado com a realiza+º+úo de uma sociedade mais fraterna.

Aufrichting danke ich allen, die sich nah und fern, einzeln oder in Gemeinschaft, unserem heutigen Gebet f++r den Frieden in der Welt angeschlossen haben. Ich ermutige euch, darin auch in Zukunft nicht nachzulassen und im Geiste Jesus Christi in der eigenen Familie, im Beruf und im Leben der Gesellschaft selber immer mehr zu Friedensstiftern zu werden. Der Friede Christi sei mit euch allen!




 

Anastasios

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Linus7 said:
I just read what you write, anastasios.

Maybe it's not as clear as you think it is.
Perhaps, or perhaps you are just not reading it clearly. I call for the facts to be clear before we go off attacking something. I said that Assisi was a failure but when it happened it wasn't such a bad idea. That's not supporting it. You saying I did was putting words in my mouth.

anastasios
 

Linus7

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I think reading an account of the prcoeedings at Assisi is a good idea.

Can someone supply a link?


 

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anastasios said:
Perhaps, or perhaps you are just not reading it clearly. I call for the facts to be clear before we go off attacking something. I said that Assisi was a failure but when it happened it wasn't such a bad idea. That's not supporting it. You saying I did was putting words in my mouth.

anastasios
Who's putting words in whose mouth?

Did I say you supported Assisi?

I said you were stretching to excuse the inexcusable. And that was what I derived from the content of your posts.

And I doubt that I am the only one.

Do you seriously think no praying occurred at Assisi?
 

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IMO,

I don't think anyone can explain the event, except the parties who were present.

All we have here is speculation & assumptions.

Can you tell me what was in the hearts of the participants ? What was the intent of their actions ?

I for one will not fling insults, judgements years after the fact.

What is next for speculation ? Lets judge all by their negative actions & forget the positive.

So I spend my time researching a negative action done by the Eastern Church Hierarchy to even the score ? I think not, at least not by me.


Too much pharisaism for me,

Peace in Christ,

james
 

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Deacon Lance said:
However, Catholics accept Muslims as children of Abraham, and worshipers of the one true God, albeit it in a defective way. The kiss was meant as a sign of this belief and respect for Muslims not an endorsement of Isalm itself. However, given the kissing of the Altar, the Gospel, Icons and each other is a liturgical act it should not have been done because of the confusion it creates.
Slava Isuzu Christu. Forgive me deacon if I seem "uneducated" (as I have not taken theology or what have you), but I have to disagree with that assertation. Was it not within the last century that the hierarchy of the Church began to support the idea that Islamists/Muslims were children of Abraham?

I firmly believe that it was meant as a sign of respect, but respect a book that has pushed people to persecute our ancestors and forebearers (along with their cursed Shariah laws and Haddith)? Our forebearers of holy Constantinople, in the Balkans, in the Middle East (before the Muslim religion appeared in those areas), and in regions in the West as well? Why are they suddenly neglected and Muslims now accepted as "true believers"?

However, I agree that these things are probably not causing a scandal in the real world (with very few exceptions).

--Ben
 

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+æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é said:
As usualy, Stavro, you are a wealth of information. I was aware of the early history here, but not the tie-ins in the Quran. I have two translations of that book and do sometimes read a verse or so; but I just can't bring myself to read the whole thing.
Thanks, again.
Demetri
Thank you for your words, brother, I was adding a humble contribution to a topic already rich with very educated posts.
Problem with reading the Quran and Haddith and the commentary books is that it might defile your mind, and makes one sometimes loose the inner peace.

Pray for me.
Peace,
Stavro
 
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Linus, et al, is this the best Orthodoxy has to offer?

What on earth could anything anybody said here make me want to make the swim!? Think about what you write. Think about how things looks to outsiders. Wash the cup, inside and out.

All I have seen here is more internet intransigence. I don't know what you were trying to prove, but thanks, I am even more deeply convicted of my Faith.

As the black boy on South Park once said, "that's it. I'm OUT!"
 

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However, Catholics accept Muslims as children of Abraham, and worshipers of the one true God, albeit it in a defective way.
Peace Deacon Lance,
is this an official position of the Catholic church or your own opinion ?
I am very surprised about the idea of including other sects and religions under the worship of the same God appears in the Catholic church.
It is a pluralists idea which is more consistent with the New Age Phenomena and other sects, and I am surprised, in fact disappointed to find it in a Church of such heritage like the Catholic Church.
I think that the Trinity in one God head is the fundamental idea in christianity, and denying it is very much denying the real God. Muslims don't believe in the Trinity.
Also, the idea of Incarnation is also very fundamental to christian belief, and The Lord Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. How can a religion that denies the divinity of Christ be called worshipper of the true God ?

In addition, just the simple attributes of God and his characteristics in christianity is very much different than Islam. Our God is Love . In the Quran, you don't find the word Love at all. At all !!!!! Ever heard the phrase :" Our God is not their Allah". It is based on simple comparison of the characteristics of God and Allah in the Bible and Quran, Christian tradition and islamic tradition, respectively.

Small heresies begin with small ideas and usually when toleration exercised in the dogmas. The next step is that muslims, Hindos ( I respect Hinduism), Buddists ( I respect Buddism as well ) and all other religions are saved. It might be far now, but it will come one day if such ideas creep into the different churches.

Peace,
Stavro

 

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From Nostra Aetate
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
Full document here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.htm

This is a Vatican II thing though, if I am not mistaken before Vatican II the Latins DID use to have the Christian understanding of Islam, not the modern politically correct version. l
 

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The Caffeinator said:
Linus, et al, is this the best Orthodoxy has to offer?

What on earth could anything anybody said here make me want to make the swim!? Think about what you write. Think about how things looks to outsiders. Wash the cup, inside and out.

All I have seen here is more internet intransigence. I don't know what you were trying to prove, but thanks, I am even more deeply convicted of my Faith.

As the black boy on South Park once said, "that's it. I'm OUT!"
Huh?

Look at my posts and tell me where I have attacked your faith.

I criticized a couple of the Pope's specific actions (bowing to and kissing the Koran).

Is he above all criticism?

You can rest assured that if an Orthodox patriarch had done the same things, we would be all over him.

I was also critical of ecumenism, but I am critical of that no matter who is involved.

I don't think I offered any attacks on RCism. In fact, if you will look back I even said how I would handle this issue if I were arguing the RC point of view.

I am sorry if you were offended by this thread.

But "Linus, et al" are not responsible for its theme.

I will leave it to you to figure out who is.
 

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Jakub: Too much pharisaism for me
What pharisaism?

The Pope both bows to and kisses the Koran, and those who are critical of that are now "Pharisees?"

What about the author of that Daily Catholic article? He was critical of what the Pope did, too. Is he a Pharisee?

I criticized the ecumenical prayer service at Assisi because the leaders of non-Christian religions were invited and apparently occupied prominent places in the proceedings.

Note that - sadly - an Orthodox cleric of some kind - presumably a patriarch - was involved.

Should my criticism be construed as an attack on the Roman Catholic Church?

It was not such an attack.

It was an attack on what I regard as sappy ecumenism, nothing more.

I know Catholics who would heartily agree with me.
 

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Linus,

My Pharisaism comment was not directed to you, it was a general blanket one.

I look at JPII as man, he will be prone to mis-steps just as St. Peter was. His title of Patriarch of the West & Bishop of Rome does not act as armor.

Now being a RC I suppose my fellow Latins or Greek Catholics will stomp on me a little but thats how I see it.

Don't we get tired of beating a topic to death ?

What will be the out come of this discussion ? It was a mistake.


james

 

Anastasios

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Linus:

1) "Trying to excuse something" seems to indicate you think I support it.

2) I don't seriously think *anything* about Assisi since I have not read what went on there! I don't even have the vaguest notions of the proceedings. All I am calling for is for someone to find the record of the proceedings so we can get to the bottom of it. You have already painted me as your opponent in this issue but you will be surprised to see my come out against Assisi if I find sycretism occurred. And syncretism would be if every religion got its chance to teach its doctrines equally.

anastasios
 

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anastasios said:
Linus:

1) "Trying to excuse something" seems to indicate you think I support it.
No it doesn't, and I don't.

It simply sounded to me like you were making excuses for Assisi: saying the Pope preached to the pagans, asking whether the pagans actually prayed, etc.

That is not the same thing as supporting it.

If you supported it, you would have said you thought it was a good thing, a good idea, etc.

2) I don't seriously think *anything* about Assisi since I have not read what went on there! I don't even have the vaguest notions of the proceedings. All I am calling for is for someone to find the record of the proceedings so we can get to the bottom of it. You have already painted me as your opponent in this issue but you will be surprised to see my come out against Assisi if I find sycretism occurred. And syncretism would be if every religion got its chance to teach its doctrines equally.

anastasios
You addressed me by name (by screen name, at least) and offered correctives or contradiction to what I posted.

Maybe that's not opposition, but it sure is close, anyway.

But I think you are right in wanting to know what actually transpired at Assisi in 1986.

I think the impression of syncretism is almost as bad as actual syncretism.
 

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Jakub: I look at JPII as man, he will be prone to mis-steps just as St. Peter was. His title of Patriarch of the West & Bishop of Rome does not act as armor.

Now being a RC I suppose my fellow Latins or Greek Catholics will stomp on me a little but thats how I see it.
A very reasonable thing to say and no contradiction of RC doctrine.

SamB wrote something similar.

I really did not intend this thread as an attack on the RCC or on Catholics.

I will gladly let it drop.

The Pope made a mistake. Nobody ever said he was perfect.
 

James

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Linus,

Never saw it as a attack against the RCC, but I don't feel comfortable sticking it to a sick individual.

Peace in Christ my brother,

james
 

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I wish to apologize to one and all for my tone in my posts. I responded to bigotry with bigotry which is never right. I used to find this forum a source for building up my faith in Christ but have found recently that it is more and more causing the Pharisee within me (which is I think within us all) to come to the surface. With this in mind I will refrain from posting here at least during this season of Lent as I want to be more of the Publican and less the Pharisee. My remarks should not be taken as an attack against any here, though I'm sure some will interpret them as such, but simply as my own thoughts on my own soul's state at this time.

I wish you all a solemn and recollected Great Lent and a Happy Pascha.

Carpo-Rusyn
 

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I cannot believe these posts from those of you sitting at your little computers in your comfortable little American 2004 lives about how you'd die before betraying Christianity.

I hate to break it to you but the majority of you would crack. That's basic human nature. People always crack under torture. Look at the persecutions of the Church over time, when faced with a life and death choice, most Christians betrayed their faith. Human beings have a natural instinct to save their lives.

I pray to God that I'm never in that situation but if I am I pray to God that He'll help me and I know that He'll have mercy on me if I give in.

 

Anastasios

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Jennifer,

I believe many were more concerned with the post-event "spin" than the actual failure of the individual.

anastasios
 

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I wasn't referring to the criticism of the Pope because what he did deserves criticism but rather to comments like the following:

"What possible excuse could there be for showing such reverence for that antichrist book?

I would think that dying before doing such things would be laudable and worthy of heaven."

and

"There is a lesson to be learn from the fall of Constantinople and the council of Florence regarding sacrificing faith for temporal security."

 

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Linus7 said:
Note that - sadly - an Orthodox cleric of some kind - presumably a patriarch - was involved.

IIRC, there was a lot more than just one Orthodox cleric who attended both Assisi functions.

Stephen
 

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Frobie said:
Check it out. It's the Novus Ordo religion in action...http://www.diocesereport.com/special/assisi2/photo_review.shtml

???
Look at the pictures and then read the text. The Tibetan monk gave a speech and not a homily. The Buddhists were not praying in Church but in a room in a convent. The Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans--all Christians I presume--were praying together. The other non-monotheistic religions and yes, even the Moslems, were praying (to their respective Gods--I am assuming for courtesy's sake on OC.net that the Moslems don't pray to the same God we do) that religion not be used to excuse violence.

None of this offends me. I'm not fan of the post-V2 environment for many reasons including the state of the liturgy. Nevertheless, I'll take willingly some of this Novus Ordo religion if it means praying for peace and praying that one's faith not be used to commit violence upon others (of different religions).

As far as the Moslem God being a demon, this is neither dogma nor doctrine. I don't worship Allah. Neither do I kiss the Koran. Nonetheless I will respect a Moslem's belief if he says that his father is Abraham too (through Ishmael) whether or not Abraham truly is his father. If in the supposedly unlikely chance that Abraham is their father, however, then the Moslems worship Yahweh too, however imperfectly.

Anybody out there in OC.net land have a problem with praying with Jews? I don't. My maternal great-grandfather was a Sephardic Jew.

As far as what the Pope did or did not do . . . I was not there to see it. All I have to go on are newspaper articles, some less than complimentary descriptions of erstwhile Catholics like the SSPX et. al. who don't have anything nice to say about the Pontiff in the first place, and the occasional uninformed commenter here or there. No, I don't like knowing that a statue of the Buddha was placed on a Catholic altar even if it was removed appropriately right away by Catholic authorities. And the kissing the Koran bit . . . still puzzles me, confuses me, and even angers me!

I'm not sure (in charity of course and always with respect) that I always agree with Jennifer. But her recent comment about this subject is right on! I only wish that I had made that comment herein and elsewhere! And Anastasios is also one of the few individuals of late that has taken a moderate and objective look at these admittedly confusing and objectionable incidents. A little irenicism would not in any way jeopardize one's standings with one's faith and practice.

One thing we all might do well to consider. Talking is better than war, much better. I can speak with some experience having been to one of these unpleasant parties in my youth. So is praying. It wouldn't hurt to let others pray even in your own household just so long as you can take reasonable steps to ensure that others--including the enemies of your Faith--do not misunderstand your intentions and actions. Assissi II was sensitive to the problems arising unintentionally from Assissi I. Both Assissis however were carried out in the tradition of St. Francis who after all loved those "demon-worshipping" Moslems duing an age in which Islam and Christianity were at war with each other. So you might as well add the Seraphic Father to your complaints about JP-II.

Don't foget to beat up on the late Mother Teresa too! She was a Catholic Christian who allowed pagan ceremonies in her house of the dead. She ensured that those who died under her care were buried according to the religious customs of the deceased. Some of these ceremonies took place under a Catholic roof. This surely must make her complicit in the demon worship of the Hindus. Don't forget, if you consider Moslems to worship a demon God, this is even more so with the Hindus who worship a pantheon of gods/demons. I understand that they worship thousands of gods.

Jim C.
 

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Jennifer said:
I cannot believe these posts from those of you sitting at your little computers in your comfortable little American 2004 lives about how you'd die before betraying Christianity.

I hate to break it to you but the majority of you would crack. That's basic human nature. People always crack under torture. Look at the persecutions of the Church over time, when faced with a life and death choice, most Christians betrayed their faith. Human beings have a natural instinct to save their lives.

I pray to God that I'm never in that situation but if I am I pray to God that He'll help me and I know that He'll have mercy on me if I give in.
What does the post above have to do with what is being discussed?

What, no one who has not himself been shot in the head or bludgeoned to death by a Muslim can criticize the Pope for both bowing to and kissing the Koran?

Was the Pope under duress, fearing for his life?

Is that your point?

Or did you mean most of us would have cracked under the pressure of knowing that journalists had their cameras trained upon us?
 

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jbc1949 said:
If in the supposedly unlikely chance that Abraham is their father, however, then the Moslems worship Yahweh too, however imperfectly.
There doesn't seem to be any historic continuity in Arab worship between the time of Ishmael and that of Muhammed (though Moslems claim otherwise), so I can only assume that Moslems worship a god fabricated by Muhammed.

John.
 

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Yes, and I will readily admit that I believe such attendance by Orthodox is WRONG. I think the point some of us were getting at is that no matter how outrageous whatever the Pope of Rome does RCs are reluctant to say it was wrong. Whereas if Orthodox bishops do anything out of the norm no one hestitates to say they think it was wrong. Look at the relationship of the Athonites since the calendar change with te EP for example.
 

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Dear Friends:

The Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue (Pontificium Consilium pro Dialogo Inter Religiones) or, PCID, is a regular dicastery (Department) of the Roman Curia. It is tasked to foster, and to supervise, relations with members and groups of non-Christian religions as well as with those who are in any way endowed with religious feeling. (Pastor Bonus, 159)

It was created on May 19, 1964 and elevated to a curial department, with the ranked of a Pontifical Council, on June 28, 1988.

Is it wrong to have such an endeavor? How do you suppose to evangelize non-Christians like the Muslims, Hindus, and the Jews without showing respect for the indigenous beliefs of peoples?

The success of the Catholic Church in Hindu India in converting many to the Christian faith has been largely based on the Church's integration of some Hindu beliefs into the practice of Christianity.

The Catholic Church has evangelization in fement in large Muslim countries such as Indonesia, Pakistan, and Bangladesh and in sub-Saharan Africa.

The Catholic Church is also into Burma, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, Tibet, Mongolia, Japan, and China (!) where Shintoism and Buddhism are the principal religions of the region.

This explains the presence of non-Christians in Assissi, who are invited, as a gesture of goodwill for the tolerated presence of Catholics in those countries, to offer a common and communal prayer for World Peace!

Not bad, if you are willing to grasp the meaning and implications of such inter-religious "joint" ceremonies.

AmdG
 

Mor Ephrem

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Amadeus said:
The success of the Catholic Church in Hindu India in converting many to the Christian faith has been largely based on the Church's integration of some Hindu beliefs into the practice of Christianity.
Perhaps in modern times, but I am curious: are you sure it is the integration of Hindu beliefs that is responsible for this, or do you mean the integration of certain Hindu practices? I would've thought the latter.
 

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Dear Friends:

As a corollary to my previous post, have you ever stopped to ponder on this reality that Christianity is a mere 1/3 of all humanity?

The top 4 religions (and 1 non-religion) in the world today are:

(1) Christianity: 2 billion
(2) Islam: 1.3 billion
(3) Hinduism: 900 million
(4) Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
(5) Buddhism: 360 million

Although Catholicism is more than 50% of all Christendom, it is still outranked by Islam, all sects combined.

Apparently, Buddhism, the least of the 5, and Protestantism combined each have more adherents than Orthodox Christianity.

Let's evangelize the world by any and all means!

AmdG
 

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Dear Phil:

More of the latter, i.e., certain Hindu practices, like when Indian Catholics were seen "dancing" during the beatification of Mother Teresa of Calcutta recently.

Thanks for the correction!

AmdG
 

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Jennifer said:
I cannot believe these posts from those of you sitting at your little computers in your comfortable little American 2004 lives about how you'd die before betraying Christianity.

I hate to break it to you but the majority of you would crack. That's basic human nature. People always crack under torture. Look at the persecutions of the Church over time, when faced with a life and death choice, most Christians betrayed their faith. Human beings have a natural instinct to save their lives.

I pray to God that I'm never in that situation but if I am I pray to God that He'll help me and I know that He'll have mercy on me if I give in.
I don't see anyone saying anything about what they would do in a situation, only what should be done. Except in the case of ridiculously egotistical people, the two things are not necessarily the same. To say that it's proper to die before betraying Christianity, or something of the sort is not in any way to say that you personally would die. Unless you're claiming to be absolutely perfect, the fact that you might or even would do something is no evidence that doing that something would be right.
 

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+¥+¦+¦-ä+¼-ü+¦++-é said:
Yes, and I will readily admit that I believe such attendance by Orthodox is WRONG. I think the point some of us were getting at is that no matter how outrageous whatever the Pope of Rome does RCs are reluctant to say it was wrong. Whereas if Orthodox bishops do anything out of the norm no one hestitates to say they think it was wrong. Look at the relationship of the Athonites since the calendar change with te EP for example.
What are you talking about? Every RC on this thread has said that what the Pope did was wrong. He received a tremendous amount of criticism for this from both conservative and trad circles. I remember this issue being debated to death.

Some RCs refuse to believe that it's true and given the source that's reasoanble but nobody is "reluctant to say it was wrong."
 

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Amadeus said:
Dear Friends:
. . .

The success of the Catholic Church in Hindu India in converting many to the Christian faith has been largely based on the Church's integration of some Hindu beliefs into the practice of Christianity.
. . .

AmdG
What specific Hindu beliefs? I think perhaps it is the integration of Hindu culture into the Catholic faith. Vatican 2 and related post-Conciliar policies and documents talk about inculturation. I don't think that the Pope would allow prayers to Vishnu, et. al., in the liturgy.

Jim C.
 

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We Orthodox need to recall the "glassiness" of our own house in this regard. Didn't the late Patriarch Parthenios on a couple of occasions state that we should honor Mohammed as a prophet? The Pope kissing the Koran was at best an ambiguous act subject to various interpretations, but the Patriarch's statements about Mohammed and Islam were way out of line.
 

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Did anyone watch "Patrick" aka St. Patrick on the Hallmark channel ?

He used/adapted some Celtic beliefs with Catholic to evangelize the unruly Irish, nice program.

james
 
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