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Can you enlighten me?

David Young

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It seems from a book published in 1794 that one of my grandmother's family (Simon de Cramond) was a Carmelite friar, then Bishop of Poitou, then 'raised by Pope Gregory XI' to be Patriarch of Antioch. But I thought Antioch was an Orthodox, not Roman, patriarchate. Can you enlighten me? [My grandmother was a Cramond.]
 

Arachne

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It means the Maronite Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch.
 

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Simon de Cramaud was a French prelate, eventually titular Latin patriarch of Alexandria; Alexandria has been one of those patriarchates sporting multiple 'rival' or 'parallel' patriarchs (compare Jerusalem which today has a Latin patriarch in addition to the Patriarch of Jerusalem, His Beatitude Theophilos III and the Armenian Patriarch, Nourhan). Presumably such situations derive from worldly politics and religious egotism.
 

David Young

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Simon de Cramaud was a French prelate, eventually titular Latin patriarch of Alexandria; Alexandria has been one of those patriarchates sporting multiple 'rival' or 'parallel' patriarchs (compare Jerusalem which today has a Latin patriarch in addition to the Patriarch of Jerusalem, His Beatitude Theophilos III and the Armenian Patriarch, Nourhan). Presumably such situations derive from worldly politics and religious egotism.
Thank you for this. Maybe you can help further. In view of the palæographical difficulty of reading handwriting from the 1400s, the difference between Cramaud and Cramond is negligible, and this is probably the same man. The Simon de Cramond of whom I read was sent by King Robert II to finalise a treaty with the King of France (Charles VI), which is what took him to France. The family had earlier submitted to the English king Edward I in 1306 for their lands in and near Cramond.

Can you comment on Arachne's statement that, "It means the Maronite Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch"?

And finally, can you point me to a source of further information?
 

David Young

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I think the author of the 1794 book, John Philp Wood, has either muddled two stories and two men of similar names, because if you read on the Internet about the life of Simon de Cramaud it parallels the book’s story of Simon de Cramond but not closely enough; or has got the right story and the right man, but is rather loose or vague on the details.

The names are similar (Cramond/Cramaud, Poitou/Poitiers, Antioch/Alexandria) and although no dates are given in the book, the period is the same. Hmmm... a great mystery.

Wood does cite his source in footnotes, but I am not in a position to check it or his understanding of it. It is Father Hays Scotia Sacra, pp 682-4.

Any further comments?
 

Ainnir

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Why do you want them to comment on each other’s statements?
 

Arachne

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Thank you. Can you comment on brion's statement that he was "titular Latin patriarch of Alexandria"? Can you point me to a source of further information?
No, I can't comment. If you're interested in further research, you'll have to do your own.
 

Ainnir

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Only ’cos I thought one's information might have prompted further interesting thoughts. No other reason.
Might they have mentioned it themselves if it had? Seems the thing a reasoning adult would do.
 

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Simon Cardinal de Cramaud 1345 – 1422: for a summary in brief of his ecclesiastical and political activities see the following synopsis in the Catholic Hierarchy webpages:


For a more extensive discussion of his life and political/ecclesiastical functions see the seminal work of Professor Kaminsky which can be found in full on line using the following link (for his early life and progress within poliitics and the church see specifically Section 2):


He was French by birth and there appears to be no obvious link with Scotland and the village of Cramond. The original posting appears to derive from John Philip Woods “The Antient (sic) and Modern State of the Parish of Cramond”, published 1794. Wood appears to base his account of Simon de Cramond, Patriarch of Antioch, on an account by Father Richard Augustine Hay (1661-1736) to be found in his “Scotia Sacra”.

Wood also references 'Dempster' with no formal citation; this might perhaps refer to “Historia ecclesiastica gentis Scotorum" published by one Thomas Dempster in 1627. '(Ulrika) Morér asserts that this "is one of the most discredited works ever written in the field of Scottish history." The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica says: "In this he tries to prove that Bernard (Sapiens), Alcuin, Saint Boniface and Johannes Scotus Eriugena were all Scots, and even Boadicea becomes a Scottish author.” [see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dempster]. Perhaps therein lies the solution to the apparent confusion/enigma posited in the original post.

That de Cramaud held the appointment of titular Latin patriarch of Antioch appears to be an error of fact. Holders of that title during the life time of de Cramaud were: Gerardus (or Geraldus) Odonis -1342 – 1349; Pedro Amariz (Pedro Clasquerin) -1375 -1380 (died); unkown (?vacant) until Václav Králík z Buřenic – 1397 – 1416. It is unfortunate that, in 1383, the relevant time of the forging of a treaty of alliance between Scotland (Robert II) and France (Charles VI) no holder of the post is identified. At this point in history, however, Simon de Crapaud was bishop of Béziers, his second episcopal appointment.

With reference to the Patriarchate of Antioch, there are currently five who enjoy this appellation: the Greek Orthodox Patriarch, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch ('Non-Calcedonian'), the Syrian Catholic Patriarch, the Maronite (Eastern Catholic) Patriarch, the Melkite Greek Catholic Patriarch, the last three being in communion with the Church of Rome.

Alexandria boasts four holders of the title Patriarch: Greek Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox (Non-Calcedonian), Melkite Greek Catholic, and Coptic Catholic.

The Latin titular patriarchates of both Alexandria and Antioch were dissolved in the 1960s.

Scots bearing the name 'Cramond' are unlikely to descend from Simon de Cramaud and his family. Descent from a fourteenth century Simon de Cramond would require further detailed research. The National Archives of Scotland (in Edinburgh) would most likely hold the oldest extant documents.

P.S. The Poitiers/Poitou confusion is not a problem - Poitiers is the 'capital' town of the Province of Poitou.
 
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David Young

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Simon Cardinal de Cramaud 1345 – 1422: for a summary in brief of his ecclesiastical and political activities see the following synopsis in the Catholic Hierarchy webpages:


For a more extensive discussion of his life ...
This reply is excellent, and I am very grateful.
 
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