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Catechumen-soon to be Orthodox, asking important question

Khomes

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Hello all, I am a catechumen preparing to enter the Orthodox Church in about a month or so. I have recently come upon a small crisis in which I need help. I have tried talking to my spiritual father and he is trying to help, I just needed some other input. If this is not the correct place, please do move it.

I come from a roman catholic background. I was "baptized" in their church as a teenager with water poured over my head. At the same time I was also  active in fornication which I was not planning to change. I desire to be Baptized into the ORthodox Church as I believe that the Orthodox Church is the only church with true mysteries as all others are empty. However my dilemma here is that the Church wants to receive me via Chrismation. I am very adamant about receiving baptism, and our Priest is asking the Bishop if he can baptize. I want to follow the church and if the Bishop says for us to only receive Chrismation, then I will follow what he says. However, I know that I would always feel lacking, not truly Orthodox, un-baptized. I understand that the church is using economia, but I would rather have akrivia and be baptized. This whole ordeal is causing a great deal of stress for me. I am perfectly willing to be wrong in this whole situation, I just want to do what is right.

Also, since I am trusting my spiritual life to my spiritual father, I greatly stresses me out that I do not agree with everything he says or has told me. Again I am perfectly willing to be wrong. What do I do?

Something else that has come up in my mind is the whole Old calendar vs New calendar. It seems to me that the church shouldn't have changed the calendar. Can someone explain this to me?

Finally I have a problem with what I perceive to be ecuminism within the Ecumenical Patriarch. I just don't quite understand why Patriarch Athenagoras arbitrarily lifted the anathema and also why the Ecumenical Patriarchs since have been concelebrating with Catholics. I even read an article where the Patriarch concelebrated with the pope in Hungary after glorifying a Catholic saint. He even celebrated liturgy in a catholic church. AGAIN I AM WILLING TO BE WRONG. These are just some things that worry/bother me.

so bottom line, any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to be brutally honest, that might be what I need.
 

LizaSymonenko

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"I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins...."

That is the reason for not re-baptizing you.  Also, as a baptized Christian you are received in to the Orthodox Church via a Holy Sacrament...it could be Baptism, it could be Chrismation....and in some cases, it might even be Holy Confession.

The Calendar....well....it's just a calendar.  Neither one is probably correct...so, don't sweat the small stuff. 

Having said that....I am glad my Church follows the Julian Calendar.  :D

What is it that your Spiritual Father has said that you disagree with?

Ecumenism is a tricky subject.  We also pray that all nations are baptized and join the true Church....that includes RCs.  If the EP is serving with the Pope....I may not approve....but, who am I to judge?  Perhaps he had more information than I do.  Perhaps he has a plan.  Perhaps....

Welcome to the Forum....and welcome to Orthodoxy!!!

 

TheTrisagion

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1. If the Church states that chrismation is sufficient, then I would accept what the Church states. Jurisdictions vary on this issue.  I too have struggled with this because I was rather bitter about the church in which I received baptism.  They only way that you would not be doing what is right is if you demand the Church/Bishop/Priest make an exception for you because you feel that you should be brought in differently than what they are telling you.  I wouldn't see a problem asking if you might be baptized, but if they say chrismation, you ought to submit to their direction. To do otherwise is pride and that is NOT a good way to enter into the Church.

I'm assuming your spiritual father is your priest. You don't have to be a robot and accept everything your priest is telling you, but you ought to listen to him and seek to understand why he is saying what he is saying.  Presumably, he has your best interests at heart.  Don't be afraid to get clarification on issues, but always be respectful.  Often an even better solution is to find someone in the parish like your sponsor who is a solid Christian and you can befriend and get to know.  Never underestimate some of the little old ladies of the parish, often they know more about living the Orthodox life than the priest does. They are the backbone of almost any parish.

In regards to ecumenism, if you are OCA/ROCOR, it doesn't much matter what the Ecumenical Patriarch says. He isn't your Patriarch. He also isn't infallible. Feel free to disagree with him; many Orthodox Christians do.  That doesn't give license to be disrespectful, but what he says and does is the responsibility of his synod to manage.
 

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Khomes said:
I just don't quite understand why...
And therein lies the problem I don't mean to sound mean or snarky. But as a catechumen, try to avoid judging.Pray for wisdom and discernment.
As far as baptism, the role of the Orthodox Bishop is somewhat different. "where the Bishop is, there is the Church. How you will be received into Orthodoxy is his decision.
 

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Thank you all for your answers so far. It does help. How is it that one Church can say we receive through baptism, other say only confession of faith or just Chrismation is ok? Something else that is bringing me stress is that some of the Fathers of the church disagree on this matter and that there are councils that contradict each other. such as one father says we must baptize heretics coming into the church, others say only chrismation. one council says that catholics have to be baptized, another one says that they should be chrismated.

I know I already stated this, but I am just worried because I know that I will always be doubting and stressing over if my baptism was sufficient or not or whether I am "fully Orthodox".  :(

I want to trust the Church/ Bishop even if he says to receive us only through Chrismation.
 

TheTrisagion

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Khomes said:
Thank you all for your answers so far. It does help. How is it that one Church can say we receive through baptism, other say only confession of faith or just Chrismation is ok? Something else that is bringing me stress is that some of the Fathers of the church disagree on this matter and that there are councils that contradict each other. such as one father says we must baptize heretics coming into the church, others say only chrismation. one council says that catholics have to be baptized, another one says that they should be chrismated.

I know I already stated this, but I am just worried because I know that I will always be doubting and stressing over if my baptism was sufficient or not or whether I am "fully Orthodox".  :(

I want to trust the Church/ Bishop even if he says to receive us only through Chrismation.
If you submit yourself in humility to the direction of the Bishop and the Bishop is in communion with the Church, you are Orthodox. There is no partial Orthodox, it is all or nothing.  If you partake of the Holy Mysteries in a canonical parish with the blessing of the priest, you are Orthodox.  God will not judge you for the mistakes of the Bishop. Councils and canons are wonderful, but as a catechumen, it is not your responsibility to interpret them.  Our prayer to God each day is "Lord, have mercy".  That can only be effected through our humility.  We must be humble to the Church and where the Bishop is, there is the Church.  The Church has not condemned the receiving of catechumens by chrismation, certainly there are people who disagree with it and Bishops can sit around it meetings and discuss the pros and cons, but that is not your burden to bear.
 

Mor Ephrem

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TheTrisagion said:
Khomes said:
Thank you all for your answers so far. It does help. How is it that one Church can say we receive through baptism, other say only confession of faith or just Chrismation is ok? Something else that is bringing me stress is that some of the Fathers of the church disagree on this matter and that there are councils that contradict each other. such as one father says we must baptize heretics coming into the church, others say only chrismation. one council says that catholics have to be baptized, another one says that they should be chrismated.

I know I already stated this, but I am just worried because I know that I will always be doubting and stressing over if my baptism was sufficient or not or whether I am "fully Orthodox".  :(

I want to trust the Church/ Bishop even if he says to receive us only through Chrismation.
If you submit yourself in humility to the direction of the Bishop and the Bishop is in communion with the Church, you are Orthodox. There is no partial Orthodox, it is all or nothing.  If you partake of the Holy Mysteries in a canonical parish with the blessing of the priest, you are Orthodox.  God will not judge you for the mistakes of the Bishop. Councils and canons are wonderful, but as a catechumen, it is not your responsibility to interpret them.  Our prayer to God each day is "Lord, have mercy".  That can only be effected through our humility.  We must be humble to the Church and where the Bishop is, there is the Church.  The Church has not condemned the receiving of catechumens by chrismation, certainly there are people who disagree with it and Bishops can sit around it meetings and discuss the pros and cons, but that is not your burden to bear.
Athonite Hieromonk to Convert Priest: "How were you received into the Orthodox Church?  Through Baptism or through Chrismation?"
Convert Priest to Athonite Hieromonk: "Through obedience."

And all were edified. 

True story.
 

TheTrisagion

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Mor Ephrem said:
TheTrisagion said:
Khomes said:
Thank you all for your answers so far. It does help. How is it that one Church can say we receive through baptism, other say only confession of faith or just Chrismation is ok? Something else that is bringing me stress is that some of the Fathers of the church disagree on this matter and that there are councils that contradict each other. such as one father says we must baptize heretics coming into the church, others say only chrismation. one council says that catholics have to be baptized, another one says that they should be chrismated.

I know I already stated this, but I am just worried because I know that I will always be doubting and stressing over if my baptism was sufficient or not or whether I am "fully Orthodox".  :(

I want to trust the Church/ Bishop even if he says to receive us only through Chrismation.
If you submit yourself in humility to the direction of the Bishop and the Bishop is in communion with the Church, you are Orthodox. There is no partial Orthodox, it is all or nothing.  If you partake of the Holy Mysteries in a canonical parish with the blessing of the priest, you are Orthodox.  God will not judge you for the mistakes of the Bishop. Councils and canons are wonderful, but as a catechumen, it is not your responsibility to interpret them.  Our prayer to God each day is "Lord, have mercy".  That can only be effected through our humility.  We must be humble to the Church and where the Bishop is, there is the Church.  The Church has not condemned the receiving of catechumens by chrismation, certainly there are people who disagree with it and Bishops can sit around it meetings and discuss the pros and cons, but that is not your burden to bear.
Athonite Hieromonk to Convert Priest: "How were you received into the Orthodox Church?  Through Baptism or through Chrismation?"
Convert Priest to Athonite Hieromonk: "Through obedience."

And all were edified. 

True story.
+1

That was a lot less words and better said.  :)
 

Khomes

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TheTrisagion said:
Khomes said:
Thank you all for your answers so far. It does help. How is it that one Church can say we receive through baptism, other say only confession of faith or just Chrismation is ok? Something else that is bringing me stress is that some of the Fathers of the church disagree on this matter and that there are councils that contradict each other. such as one father says we must baptize heretics coming into the church, others say only chrismation. one council says that catholics have to be baptized, another one says that they should be chrismated.

I know I already stated this, but I am just worried because I know that I will always be doubting and stressing over if my baptism was sufficient or not or whether I am "fully Orthodox".  :(

I want to trust the Church/ Bishop even if he says to receive us only through Chrismation.
If you submit yourself in humility to the direction of the Bishop and the Bishop is in communion with the Church, you are Orthodox. There is no partial Orthodox, it is all or nothing.  If you partake of the Holy Mysteries in a canonical parish with the blessing of the priest, you are Orthodox.  God will not judge you for the mistakes of the Bishop. Councils and canons are wonderful, but as a catechumen, it is not your responsibility to interpret them.  Our prayer to God each day is "Lord, have mercy".  That can only be effected through our humility.  We must be humble to the Church and where the Bishop is, there is the Church.  The Church has not condemned the receiving of catechumens by chrismation, certainly there are people who disagree with it and Bishops can sit around it meetings and discuss the pros and cons, but that is not your burden to bear.
Thank you, that really helps.
 

Khomes

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Mor Ephrem said:
TheTrisagion said:
Khomes said:
Thank you all for your answers so far. It does help. How is it that one Church can say we receive through baptism, other say only confession of faith or just Chrismation is ok? Something else that is bringing me stress is that some of the Fathers of the church disagree on this matter and that there are councils that contradict each other. such as one father says we must baptize heretics coming into the church, others say only chrismation. one council says that catholics have to be baptized, another one says that they should be chrismated.

I know I already stated this, but I am just worried because I know that I will always be doubting and stressing over if my baptism was sufficient or not or whether I am "fully Orthodox".  :(

I want to trust the Church/ Bishop even if he says to receive us only through Chrismation.
If you submit yourself in humility to the direction of the Bishop and the Bishop is in communion with the Church, you are Orthodox. There is no partial Orthodox, it is all or nothing.  If you partake of the Holy Mysteries in a canonical parish with the blessing of the priest, you are Orthodox.  God will not judge you for the mistakes of the Bishop. Councils and canons are wonderful, but as a catechumen, it is not your responsibility to interpret them.  Our prayer to God each day is "Lord, have mercy".  That can only be effected through our humility.  We must be humble to the Church and where the Bishop is, there is the Church.  The Church has not condemned the receiving of catechumens by chrismation, certainly there are people who disagree with it and Bishops can sit around it meetings and discuss the pros and cons, but that is not your burden to bear.
Athonite Hieromonk to Convert Priest: "How were you received into the Orthodox Church?  Through Baptism or through Chrismation?"
Convert Priest to Athonite Hieromonk: "Through obedience."

And all were edified. 

True story.
Thanks a lot, that is a wonderful story. This really helps, thanks again
 

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Khomes,

I think it's admirably that you want to fix your past errors, but I would say that you should follow the will of the bishop whom you'll be submitting yourself to. Holding this against him and your jurisdiction will only hinder your spiritual life once you have been received into the Church, and could very well drive you out of it.

I also think, however, that you are creating a false dichotomy between being received via baptism or chrismation. Trust that the grace of the Holy Spirit will bestow upon your soul anything that was lacking in your Catholic baptism during chrismation.

As for your other problems, they really aren't in your control so why worry about them?

A calendar is a calendar. If we want to complain that the "New Calendar" was implemented by a post-schism Roman Pope, then let us reflect that the "Old Calendar" was formulated by a pagan idolater (Julius Cesar).

Even his detractors sometimes forget that the EP is not an "Eastern Pope", even though that is was they often accuse him of trying to be.  He can be in error without diminishing the claims of the Orthodox faith.

 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Khomes said:
Thank you all for your answers so far. It does help. How is it that one Church can say we receive through baptism, other say only confession of faith or just Chrismation is ok? Something else that is bringing me stress is that some of the Fathers of the church disagree on this matter and that there are councils that contradict each other. such as one father says we must baptize heretics coming into the church, others say only chrismation. one council says that catholics have to be baptized, another one says that they should be chrismated.

I know I already stated this, but I am just worried because I know that I will always be doubting and stressing over if my baptism was sufficient or not or whether I am "fully Orthodox".  :(

I want to trust the Church/ Bishop even if he says to receive us only through Chrismation.
Submit yourself to the wisdom of the Church. That's all there is to it.

The EP has special prerogatives and privileges given to him according to canon law, but he is not supreme or infallible.
 
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You've received some great responses already.  Just a couple of points to add:

Khomes said:
I desire to be Baptized into the ORthodox Church as I believe that the Orthodox Church is the only church with true mysteries as all others are empty. However my dilemma here is that the Church wants to receive me via Chrismation. I am very adamant about receiving baptism, and our Priest is asking the Bishop if he can baptize. I want to follow the church and if the Bishop says for us to only receive Chrismation, then I will follow what he says. However, I know that I would always feel lacking, not truly Orthodox, un-baptized. I understand that the church is using economia, but I would rather have akrivia and be baptized. This whole ordeal is causing a great deal of stress for me. I am perfectly willing to be wrong in this whole situation, I just want to do what is right.
This topic has been addressed here numerous times.  The Orthodox Church has not responded with one, definitive voice as to the status of sacraments in the Roman Catholic or various Protestant communions.  We know, of course, that we have them.  But the Russian Orthodox Church, with which you express a desire to unite (although I'm not sure which jurisdiction you wish to be received under), long ago made a decision to receive Roman Catholics in particular by chrismation, and has even received Roman Catholic priests into the Orthodox clergy by vesting.  They have soundly made this decision on the basis of their interpretation of ancient church councils which commanded that certain heretics who were already baptized be received by chrismation, not baptism.

There is a lot of theology as to what goes on in Roman Catholic sacraments as to an Orthodox point of view.  If you're really interested in the mechanics of it, I'd refer you to the writings of the late theologian Fr. Georges Florovsky who treated on this issue extensively, and also to seek out Fr. John Morris who sometimes posts here, and who is also very knowledgeable on this subject.  

But the bottom line on this is:  The Church will receive you as one of her own.  If the bishop who directed your reception should have done less, or more, in doing so, it will be on him, not on you.  You will be an Orthodox Christian, and to paraphrase Ben Franklin, "We have given you the Orthodox Christian faith, if you can keep it."

Something else that has come up in my mind is the whole Old calendar vs New calendar. It seems to me that the church shouldn't have changed the calendar. Can someone explain this to me?
Don't worry about the calendars.  For the first several centuries, the Church was divided over when to celebrate Easter.  Some insisted on the 14th of the Jewish Month of Nisan and others always on a Sunday.  The Church met in council and promulgated rules on when Easter was to be calculated.  The calendar in use at that time was the Julian calendar.  In the 16th century, under the direction of the Catholic Pope, the calendar was reformed to correct for astronomical inaccuracies.  The Orthodox did not initially adopt this calendar because of its connection to the Pope, I believe, but it was adopted by many churches in the 20th century not because it was a Catholic calendar, but because the entire civil world had adopted this calendar for scientific reasons.  Some churches still use the old calendar.  All, with the exception of the Church of Finland, and perhaps one other, and that for civil/governmental reasons, retain the ancient conciliar calculation of Easter.  And all of these, including the Church of Finland, are in communion with each other and fully Orthodox.  Whether you celebrate Christmas on December 25th or January 7th (or the 6th, I think, for our Armenian brethren) does not matter as much as whether you actually celebrate Christmas.

Finally I have a problem with what I perceive to be ecuminism within the Ecumenical Patriarch. I just don't quite understand why Patriarch Athenagoras arbitrarily lifted the anathema and also why the Ecumenical Patriarchs since have been concelebrating with Catholics. I even read an article where the Patriarch concelebrated with the pope in Hungary after glorifying a Catholic saint. He even celebrated liturgy in a catholic church. AGAIN I AM WILLING TO BE WRONG. These are just some things that worry/bother me.
There has never been an occasion, to my knowledge, where the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Pope of Rome have concelebrated a Liturgy, i.e., presided together at the altar for the consecration of the Eucharist.  It is undeniable that they have celebrated some limited forms of prayer services and engaged in other such activities, spoken well of each other, recognized that each other seeks to follow Christ, etc.  I have read some of the writings of the current Ecumenical Patriarch, His All-Holiness Bartholomew, and have heard him speak (via videocast) on numerous occasions.  The actions which you mention above are, in my view, an exercise of economy taken in accordance with the old view that "it is better to catch flies with honey than with vinegar" -- these are fellow Christians, albeit in error, and we can bring them gently home.  Other patriarchs and churches have considered that the Ecumenical Patriarch's overtures are sometimes unwise or excessive.  They have criticized him, and I'm sure he has criticized them.  For a counter-balance on his approach, you can read of the approach taken by Metropolitan Hilarion of Volokolamsk in the Russian Orthodox Church.  And yet, despite this, these bishops all remain in full communion with each other and recognize each other as fully Orthodox.  That should tell you all that you need to know.

so bottom line, any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to be brutally honest, that might be what I need.
Hope this helps you out.
 

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The Church has not condemned the receiving of catechumens by chrismation,
Indeed. Not only that, we have Orthodox saints who were received into the Church by chrismation, such as New Martyr Elizabeth the Grand Duchess, who converted from the Lutheran faith to Orthodoxy.
 

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So far, I wanted to thank everybody for their responses and I do feel much better now. You have all been really helpful
 

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Well the Bishop responded today by saying we are to be received via Chrismation. To be honest, it is very disheartening. We don't know what we are going to do. Baptism is very important to me, so now I have to decide to either be obedient to this Bishop or go to a different Church in town that will Baptize. What stinks is that we have had clergy tell us one thing, and others tell us something else. As in, either be obedient to this bishop or to find one that will Baptize and be obedient to him. Im not sure if its perfectly ok to desire Baptism this much or if I am being like the Disciples who walked away because "this teaching is too hard to accept"... please pray for me a sinner... :(
 
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Khomes said:
Well the Bishop responded today by saying we are to be received via Chrismation. To be honest, it is very disheartening. We don't know what we are going to do. Baptism is very important to me, so now I have to decide to either be obedient to this Bishop or go to a different Church in town that will Baptize. What stinks is that we have had clergy tell us one thing, and others tell us something else. As in, either be obedient to this bishop or to find one that will Baptize and be obedient to him. Im not sure if its perfectly ok to desire Baptism this much or if I am being like the Disciples who walked away because "this teaching is too hard to accept"... please pray for me a sinner... :(
Why do you reject the baptism of the Catholic Church and desire a new baptism so strongly? Why do you feel that you are right, and the Bishop is wrong in accepting you via chrismation?

Do not deny your Catholic background; rather, see it as part of the journey that lead you to where you are today. Try to see the long arc of the journey, and not just this step in road.
 

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username! said:
Don't get wrapped up into church politics. .especially at this point in your journey. It'll cause undue stress.
Oh, I know, I am feeling it now.
 

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HandmaidenofGod said:
Khomes said:
Well the Bishop responded today by saying we are to be received via Chrismation. To be honest, it is very disheartening. We don't know what we are going to do. Baptism is very important to me, so now I have to decide to either be obedient to this Bishop or go to a different Church in town that will Baptize. What stinks is that we have had clergy tell us one thing, and others tell us something else. As in, either be obedient to this bishop or to find one that will Baptize and be obedient to him. Im not sure if its perfectly ok to desire Baptism this much or if I am being like the Disciples who walked away because "this teaching is too hard to accept"... please pray for me a sinner... :(
Why do you reject the baptism of the Catholic Church and desire a new baptism so strongly? Why do you feel that you are right, and the Bishop is wrong in accepting you via chrismation?

Do not deny your Catholic background; rather, see it as part of the journey that lead you to where you are today. Try to see the long arc of the journey, and not just this step in road.
Thank you for the advice. Why we desire Orthodox baptism so strongly is that not only was it not in the correct form (no immersion), we don't believe the catholic church has sacramental grace and we wanted our new life in Orthodoxy to be just that, born from Holy Baptism. It is very hard to describe in writing the full extent of why we desire baptism so strongly.
 

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Scrupulousity.

Your desire to be Orthodox is wonderful. But deciding you can evaluate your own situation better than a Bishop?

How will you end up feeling later when you find out your priest was received via chrismation?  Will that make you think him 'less orthodox?'


 

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DeniseDenise said:
Scrupulousity.

Your desire to be Orthodox is wonderful. But deciding you can evaluate your own situation better than a Bishop?

How will you end up feeling later when you find out your priest was received via chrismation?  Will that make you think him 'less orthodox?'
I understand and I see what you are saying. These are some of the things that I am juggling around in my head. Another aspect that the Bishop didn't know when he made his decision (our Priest chose not to mention it) is that when I was baptized in the catholic church about 2 years ago was that my fiance (now wife) and I were living in fornication and the catholic church found out and refused to baptize me unless we stopped. In which I lied and said that we would, when we didn't... :( to be honest, this has haunted me ever since I truly realized how wrong that was. This is another main driving factor for me desiring baptism. I don't mean to be prideful or anything, or act like I know more than a bishop when clearly I do NOT. It's just that Holy Baptism is very important to us... uuugggghhhh, this whole situation is just very frustrating. I feel like if I just accepted Chrismation minus Baptism, then I would feel completely unworthy , unprepared, unorthodox for me to receive the Eucharist. I am pretty sure that it would haunt me the rest of my life... :(
 

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Khomes said:
DeniseDenise said:
Scrupulousity.

Your desire to be Orthodox is wonderful. But deciding you can evaluate your own situation better than a Bishop?

How will you end up feeling later when you find out your priest was received via chrismation?  Will that make you think him 'less orthodox?'
I understand and I see what you are saying. These are some of the things that I am juggling around in my head. Another aspect that the Bishop didn't know when he made his decision (our Priest chose not to mention it) is that when I was baptized in the catholic church about 2 years ago was that my fiance (now wife) and I were living in fornication and the catholic church found out and refused to baptize me unless we stopped. In which I lied and said that we would, when we didn't... :( to be honest, this has haunted me ever since I truly realized how wrong that was. This is another main driving factor for me desiring baptism. I don't mean to be prideful or anything, or act like I know more than a bishop when clearly I do NOT. It's just that Holy Baptism is very important to us... uuugggghhhh, this whole situation is just very frustrating. I feel like if I just accepted Chrismation minus Baptism, then I would feel completely unworthy , unprepared, unorthodox for me to receive the Eucharist. I am pretty sure that it would haunt me the rest of my life... :(
Yes, it is important for the Bishop to realize this.

There was some question if I would be received by Chrismation in the Greek Orthodox Church, as the Greek bishop at that time was allowing some Roman Catholics to be received only by confession of faith. When I mentioned that I approached Confirmation in the Catholic Church with uncertainty due to all the changes going on, that I was unsure, then the priest agreed to chrismate me. Furthermore, when the bishop realized that some Catholics who had been received by Confession of Faith were returning to Catholicism as there had been no real commitment on their part, then the bishop asked those who had not been chrismated to come to the church and be chrismated.
 

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I should also make it clear that in no way am I talking bad about our current parish, or our Priest, or our Bishop. What stinks is that we love the Church that we go to and our Priest/ Spiritual Father and we want to continue going there, but as you can tell, we are having a dilemma...
 

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You have a dilemma for one reason and one reason alone.


You have not told your Priest and Bishop the entire truth.



Go do that, and give them the facts that they need to make the decision and then abide by it.

 

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What the others have said here.

Also, which would please God more:

"We humans screwed up Your work. Please do it again".

or

"If we humans screwed it up, I trust You to provide what is lacking".
 

username!

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Part of forgiveness is forgiving yourself.  You married the girl and you need to move on from this. Tell the truth see what happens. .  Probably my guess is you'll be chrismated. Chrismation completes the baptism done in a heterodox setting.  It probably will be seen as the best thing. Sounds like you; want baptism and your sticking point is you were sleeping with your now wife. Thing is that doesn't nullify your baptism. Whatever you are reading that has you convinced to be baptized, stop reading it forgive yourself about your past.
Don't worry about what the ep does.
Listen to the priest and bishop.  
Yes you can commune on mt.athos if you were chrismated.
Don't At This Point Read Stuff Your Priest Has Not Assigned You Yes The Forum Or Auto Correct Is Capitalizing Every Word sorry.
 

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Contrary to what one reads here, the Orthodox Faith is not unlike the Catholic faith in terms of ecclesiastical authority and obedience. If after you explain to your priest the ENTIRETY of your personal history you are told that you are to be received by Chrismation, that is how you will be receive if you are to be part of that faith community. Username offers sage advice here.
 

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DeniseDenise said:
You have a dilemma for one reason and one reason alone.


You have not told your Priest and Bishop the entire truth.



Go do that, and give them the facts that they need to make the decision and then abide by it.
Well I told our priest everything and he maid the notion that he wasn't going to include that in the letter to the Bishop because in his opinion, it didn't really change the situation.
 

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Khomes said:
DeniseDenise said:
You have a dilemma for one reason and one reason alone.


You have not told your Priest and Bishop the entire truth.



Go do that, and give them the facts that they need to make the decision and then abide by it.
Well I told our priest everything and he maid the notion that he wasn't going to include that in the letter to the Bishop because in his opinion, it didn't really change the situation.
Well then.

There is your answer.

Quit second guessing and 'more holy'ing your priest.

 

Maria

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Holier than the Priest or the Pope? I have not heard that expression since Vatican II, when priests used that very expression to silence any Catholics who disagreed with the Novus Ordo Mass.

Is not Christ to be our model? Why are we comparing ourselves to the Priest, Bishop, or even Pope?
 

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Maria said:
Holier than the Priest or the Pope? I have not heard that expression since Vatican II, when priests used that very expression to silence any Catholics who disagreed with the Novus Ordo Mass.

Is not Christ to be our model? Why are we comparing ourselves to the Priest, Bishop, or even Pope?
If the bishop says that he will be a member of the Church via chrismation, he will be a member of the Church via chrismation. Christ is to be our model, like you said. We are to be obedient to Him and those who represent Him. Is the bishop teaching heresy? No. He is acting in accordance with the canons. Regardless, it is not your concern.
 

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So let me get this clear.

Although I was chrismated into the Orthodox Church because the priest and bishop felt that my hesitation invalidated my confirmation in the Roman Catholic Church, deceit does not invalidate a Baptism?

 

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Maria said:
So let me get this clear.

Although I was chrismated into the Orthodox Church because the priest and bishop felt that my hesitation invalidated my confirmation in the Roman Catholic Church, deceit does not invalidate a Baptism?
First of all, hesitation and deceit are two different things.

If you hesitated, you may or may not have been participating according to your will. Your bishop likely recommended, then, that you be chrismated "just in case," which you essentially outlined anyway. This is logical, because participation in baptism/chrismation shouldn't be against one's will. Its "validity" would then be in question.

While the OP's baptism involved deceit, and this is certainly inappropriate, he was given trinitarian baptism and he fully desired it. Regardless of his sinful activity or otherwise, he was baptized and this is to be recognized.
 

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Antonis said:
Maria said:
So let me get this clear.

Although I was chrismated into the Orthodox Church because the priest and bishop felt that my hesitation invalidated my confirmation in the Roman Catholic Church, deceit does not invalidate a Baptism?
First of all, hesitation and deceit are two different things.

If you hesitated, you may or may not have been participating according to your will. Your bishop likely recommended, then, that you be chrismated "just in case," which you essentially outlined anyway. This is logical, because participation in baptism/chrismation shouldn't be against one's will. Its "validity" would then be in question.

While the OP's baptism involved deceit, and this is certainly inappropriate, he was given trinitarian baptism and he fully desired it. Regardless of his sinful activity or otherwise, he was baptized and this is to be recognized.
In Roman Catholicism, deceit of any kind can annul a wedding. So, if a man wanted to marry a woman not because he loved her, but to hide his homosexuality to attain financial gain, which was done more than we would like to admit, this deceit invalidates a marriage. If a man was sexually impotent, and he knew this, but he refused to admit this to the priest and/or his future wife, this could also invalidate a marriage.

Lack of free will also invalidated a Roman Catholic marriage, so forced marriages were not recognized. This has caused some scrupulosity. How many men and women hesitate at the altar?

When I got married in the Roman Catholic Church, we had a disclosure form which we had to fill out completely that covered all these points.

If deceit and/or hesitation can invalidate a wedding, then could not deceit and/or hesitation invalidate a baptism?
 

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and the Priest and Bishop have decided it did not



 

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DeniseDenise said:
and the Priest and Bishop have decided it did not
The priest decided not to act on his knowledge of deceit. However, the bishop was not informed about the deceit.
So, only the priest knows, not the bishop.
 

DeniseDenise

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Maria said:
DeniseDenise said:
and the Priest and Bishop have decided it did not
The priest, not the bishop, who has not been informed about the deceit.

Maybe you should just invite him to your Church....they would baptize him, right? ;)
 

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Rhomes, if in doubt, please check with the ROCOR.

Your increasing doubt can only lead to scrupulosity.
 
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