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catholic answers forum bars orthodox dicussion

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username!

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Friul said:
Wow, really?  Well, that 'thine' sounds awfully Protestant now doesn't it.  :p  "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and for ever."  Now that sounds RC.  :laugh:
What think Anastasios is referencing is that in the Roman Missal the priest doesn't end the prayer with the "For thine is the Kingdom, etc..." 

P: Let us pray with confidence to the Father, in the words our gave us:

A: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses; as we forgive those who trespass, against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

P: Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy in, keep us free from sin, and protect us from all anxiety, as we wait in joyful hope for coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ:

C: For the kingdom,the power, and the glory  are yours, now and forever.

That is how the Our Father is done in the Roman Missal (current, normative mass). 

Anastasios hits the nail on the head with his post.
 

PJ

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Friul,

Friul said:
Wow, really?  Well, that 'thine' sounds awfully Protestant now doesn't it.   :p  "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and for ever."  Now that sounds RC.   :laugh:
I was more shocked to hear that some RCs are 'saying "AND THE SON" during the filioque'.

- Peter.

(Seriously, though, I do think it's terrible when Latin Catholics go into an EC parish and try to fix things to their own likings -- particularly changing the Creed.)
 
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When I attend a Latin rite Catholic mass, I don't say the filioque during the Creed.  I wonder if Latin Catholics would object to the omission?  Then again, I believe the Catholic Church affirms the validity of the Creed without the filioque, so perhaps no one would mind.
 

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Where ever I attend I follow and respect their norms, it is common sense to do a little research...


"Stupidity is also a gift from God, but one mustn't misuse it". + Pope John Paul II ...

Rampant amongst the many I say...

pax


 

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The Iambic Pen said:
When I attend a Latin rite Catholic mass, I don't say the filioque during the Creed.  I wonder if Latin Catholics would object to the omission?  Then again, I believe the Catholic Church affirms the validity of the Creed without the filioque, so perhaps no one would mind.
I know what you mean, as I face that dilemma myself whenever I attend a Sunday mass at a Latin Catholic Church. I'm not entirely keen on saying the filioque, but I also don't feel right saying one creed while everyone else says a different creed. (That's just my own personal feeling on the matter, for what it's worth.)

Blessings,
Peter.
 

PJ

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The Iambic Pen said:
I wonder if Latin Catholics would object to the omission? 
I don't think many Latins would object per se; but I imagine some of the more, shall we say, "activist" Latins might use it as a justification for inserting the filioque when they themselves are at an EC parish.

-Peter.
 
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Hello everybody! Hieromonk Ambrogio is still around...  ;)

Got a PM note today - had a message from user "natural36dd" on CAF.

Since it was the first PM in quite a few months, I opened my CAF mailbox to read it (yep I am still there - unbanned and seemingly unharmed).

Now the surprise - the message had been deleted, and seemingly even user "natural36dd" had vanished into thin air.

...is Big Brother at work again?  ???

Yours in Crist,

hieromonk Ambrogio
Turin, Italy
 

Fr. George

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Padre Ambrogio said:
"natural36dd"
Father, bless!

I'm sorry, but that screen-name sounds like one set up to promote materials that are not appropriate.  This may be a reason why you can't find their user account.  Here on OC.net, if a user posts pornographic material we will immediately ban them, and edit their post or delete it entirely.  For porn spammers, we have a "one strike and you're out" policy, for the protection of our members.  This may indeed be why the PM to you was deleted (if it contained inappropriate material or links), and may be why the account is gone.
 

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It was a porn spam, and I forwarded it to Ms. Grant.  It seems that hundreds of members received the message under a couple different post names.

I haven't logged in for ages, but since I had a few people I had been privately conversing with, I thought I should check in.

Unfortunately my message didn't auto delete and I got an eyeful. :eek:

And I also found myself dragged into an exchange on Reformation and the East.....there was the usual banter...no facts and then an offhand remark (question?) about one Patriarch of Constantinople a Calvinist or something?

I gave a quick run down of the Tübingen exchange  and the results.(I felt I had to state I spoke as a  former cradle Lutheran, not as an Eastern Orthodox...why should I feel I have to walk on eggshells like that?)
 

ialmisry

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kaarina33 said:
It was a porn spam, and I forwarded it to Ms. Grant.  It seems that hundreds of members received the message under a couple different post names.

I haven't logged in for ages, but since I had a few people I had been privately conversing with, I thought I should check in.

Unfortunately my message didn't auto delete and I got an eyeful. :eek:

And I also found myself dragged into an exchange on Reformation and the East.....there was the usual banter...no facts and then an offhand remark (question?) about one Patriarch of Constantinople a Calvinist or something?

I gave a quick run down of the Tübingen exchange  and the results.(I felt I had to state I spoke as a  former cradle Lutheran, not as an Eastern Orthodox...why should I feel I have to walk on eggshells like that?)
Actually, what they would be refering to would not be EP Jeremiah of the Tubingen exchange, but Cyril Lucraris, whose writings were condemned at the Synod of Jerusalem.  (btw, I'm a fellow former cradle Luteran).
 

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ialmisry said:
Actually, what they would be refering to would not be EP Jeremiah of the Tubingen exchange, but Cyril Lucraris, whose writings were condemned at the Synod of Jerusalem.  (btw, I'm a fellow former cradle Luteran).
I have a strange feeling we have met.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Ain't no such animal. I think they went the way of the unicorn.
Oh my. Just because some of us Latin Catholics think Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics are often very wrong, does not mean we are ignorant of them.
 

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The Iambic Pen said:
When I attend a Latin rite Catholic mass, I don't say the filioque during the Creed.  I wonder if Latin Catholics would object to the omission?  Then again, I believe the Catholic Church affirms the validity of the Creed without the filioque, so perhaps no one would mind.
We would mind because our tradition and our rubrics for our Liturgy include the filioque. Yes, it does not need to be in the Creed for the Greeks, but it is required in our Liturgy. This would be like me going to a Ruthenian parish and explicitly reciting the filioque as part of the Creed just to make a point. That would be unacceptable.
 

ozgeorge

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Papist said:
Oh my. Just because some of us Latin Catholics think Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics are often very wrong, does not mean we are ignorant of them.
Um...you've personally twice retracted things you've said based on your misonceptions of Eastern Orthodoxy on this forum.
 
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Papist said:
We would mind because our tradition and our rubrics for our Liturgy include the filioque. Yes, it does not need to be in the Creed for the Greeks, but it is required in our Liturgy. This would be like me going to a Ruthenian parish and explicitly reciting the filioque as part of the Creed just to make a point. That would be unacceptable.
I think there is a difference, though.  The Catholic Church affirms that it is not heretical to say the Creed without the filioque.  The Orthodox Church affirms that it is heretical to say it with the filioque.  If I, as a person who is not sure about the orthodoxy of the filioque, go to a Catholic Church and omit the filioque (in a quiet manner, without drawing attention to myself), I am only speaking in accordance with what I believe to be true.  Quite likely, no one around me will even notice.  To say the filioque just to fit in with the rubrics of the liturgy would be to make a mockery of the Creed.  What is the point of saying the Creed if I don't completely agree with it?  I attend Catholic mass because I am trying to learn more about the Catholic Church, and I truly believe God is worshipped there.  However, I am not going to follow along with something I do not agree with just to make the people around me feel better.

If a Jewish or Muslim person was to visit a Catholic Church, out of a desire to learn more about Catholicism, yet did not feel right saying any of the Creed, would he or she be unwelcome?  If you answer that they would be welcome (and I hope you do), then surely a fellow Christian would be welcome, particularly one who says a version of the Creed which the Catholic Church fully affirms as orthodox?
 

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Papist said:
Oh my. Just because some of us Latin Catholics think Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics are often very wrong, does not mean we are ignorant of them.
Well - 'twas a Latin Bishop who told me I ws a heretic for going to the UGCC :(
 

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Papist said:
This would be like me going to a Ruthenian parish and explicitly reciting the filioque as part of the Creed just to make a point.
Man! did I call that one or what?
 

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The Iambic Pen,

I realize your post is directed towards Papist, but here are my own thoughts on it, for what it's worth.

As I mentioned previously, I "don't feel right saying one creed while everyone else says a different creed". That is to say, if you're in a parish which says the creed with the filioque (e.g. a Latin or Maronite Catholic parish) it doesn't seem right to me, personally, to omit only the filioque (thus saying a different creed than the one everyone else is saying, albeit not an incompatible creed, in my view). On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem with an Orthodox or an EC who visits a Latin parish and chooses to keep silent during the creed (nor a Latin Catholic who visits an EC or EO parish and chooses to keep silent during the creed).

God bless,
Peter.
 

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Servus Pio XII here, from Catholic Answers.  My old name reflected my mindset in 2005, so I have changed it to the immortal Latin for "no-name".  I reason that this name will be suitable no matter what beliefs I hold in the future.

It is good to see you all again - and many thanks to Michael (Heyschios) for referencing this forum on CA, or I never would have found it.  I too was disgusted by the reformation of Eastern Christianity; returning from a brief hiatus, my haven was uprooted, Joe (so kindly forgiving of my stupidity) was replaced by another, and the Orthodox (from whom I learnt so much) were gone. 

You chaps helped form my spirituality as it stands and, tho I am still in the Catholic communion, I find my phronema more Orthodox by the day.

Reader Arsenios, if you are out there, let's continue our correspondence! 

-NN

 

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NihilNominis said:
Servus Pio XII here, from Catholic Answers.  My old name reflected my mindset in 2005, so I have changed it to the immortal Latin for "no-name".  I reason that this name will be suitable no matter what beliefs I hold in the future.

It is good to see you all again - and many thanks to Michael (Heyschios) for referencing this forum on CA, or I never would have found it.  I too was disgusted by the reformation of Eastern Christianity; returning from a brief hiatus, my haven was uprooted, Joe (so kindly forgiving of my stupidity) was replaced by another, and the Orthodox (from whom I learnt so much) were gone. 

You chaps helped form my spirituality as it stands and, tho I am still in the Catholic communion, I find my phronema more Orthodox by the day.

Reader Arsenios, if you are out there, let's continue our correspondence! 

-NN
Yes, Reader, where are you?

Welcome aboard Nihil.
 

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NihilNominis said:
Servus Pio XII here, from Catholic Answers.  My old name reflected my mindset in 2005, so I have changed it to the immortal Latin for "no-name".  I reason that this name will be suitable no matter what beliefs I hold in the future.

It is good to see you all again - and many thanks to Michael (Heyschios) for referencing this forum on CA, or I never would have found it.  I too was disgusted by the reformation of Eastern Christianity; returning from a brief hiatus, my haven was uprooted, Joe (so kindly forgiving of my stupidity) was replaced by another, and the Orthodox (from whom I learnt so much) were gone. 

You chaps helped form my spirituality as it stands and, tho I am still in the Catholic communion, I find my phronema more Orthodox by the day.

Reader Arsenios, if you are out there, let's continue our correspondence! 

-NN 
Welcome to the forum!
 

ozgeorge

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NihilNominis said:
Servus Pio XII here, from Catholic Answers.  My old name reflected my mindset in 2005, so I have changed it to the immortal Latin for "no-name".  I reason that this name will be suitable no matter what beliefs I hold in the future.

It is good to see you all again - and many thanks to Michael (Heyschios) for referencing this forum on CA, or I never would have found it.  I too was disgusted by the reformation of Eastern Christianity; returning from a brief hiatus, my haven was uprooted, Joe (so kindly forgiving of my stupidity) was replaced by another, and the Orthodox (from whom I learnt so much) were gone. 

You chaps helped form my spirituality as it stands and, tho I am still in the Catholic communion, I find my phronema more Orthodox by the day.

Reader Arsenios, if you are out there, let's continue our correspondence! 

-NN
Welcome NN!
 

ialmisry

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kaarina33 said:
Holy Incarnation/ Western Rite, MI
Then we might have met.  I came there as soon as I found out about you all, with my two young sons.  We were not able to stay, because the wind pulled out my window (it was an awful weekend for weather), and we had to get back to Chicago Sunday night.  I hope to visit you again soon, in your new home.
 

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Once again, certain Roman Catholic Posters are attempting to derail this thread into various tangents, so I have split their posts off.
Those Roman Catholics who wish to defend their strange "right" to insult people and then recieve Communion may do so in this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15287.0.html

George
 

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ialmisry said:
Then we might have met.  I came there as soon as I found out about you all, with my two young sons.  We were not able to stay, because the wind pulled out my window (it was an awful weekend for weather), and we had to get back to Chicago Sunday night.  I hope to visit you again soon, in your new home.
And I have been to Chicago (All Saints) and will probably be visiting again...(she said as she ducked to avoid the theological food fight)  :eek:.
We have our own building now; we moved in about a month ago.
My daughter is moving to Chicago this fall, (she's Lutheran and has a Church picked out, but when I visit she wants to go to church with me. She met Fr. Reardon at the Lutheran Colloquium and would like to visit) so maybe we'll run into each other sometime.

Now let's get out of this thread, before we get hit with some rotten produce.
.. :laugh:
I'd be interested in what you thought of the Western Rite.
 

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kaarina33 said:
Now let's get out of this thread, before we get hit with some rotten produce.[/color].. :laugh:
Don't worry, it won't happen on my watch. ;)

kaarina33 said:
I'd be interested in what you thought of the Western Rite.
We have a Western Rite forum here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/board,35.0.html
 

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NihilNominis said:
Servus Pio XII here, from Catholic Answers.  My old name reflected my mindset in 2005, so I have changed it to the immortal Latin for "no-name".  I reason that this name will be suitable no matter what beliefs I hold in the future.
Welcome to the "other" forum, Nihil.  This is "ForeverAdam" from CAF!  I hope you find much food for your journey to Orthodoxy here.  :)

God bless,

Adam
 

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Quote from: kaarina33 on Today at 07:55:48 PM
Now let's get out of this thread, before we get hit with some rotten produce
ozgeorge said:
Don't worry, it won't happen on my watch. ;)
[bgcolor=#d700ff]MY HERO[/bgcolor] :angel:

 

ozgeorge

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If anyone has contact with Joe Monahan or has his email, could they please pm me? PLEASE DO NOT POST EMAIL ADDRESSES IN THE FORUM.
I would like to get in touch with Joe ASAP, so if you have contact with him, pm me and I will give you my email to pass it on to him.

The poster known here as "Papist", and known on CAF as "East and West" has made the following post on another thread:

Papist said:
Oh, I agree. There are some bad Catholic moderators out there. Joe, who used to moderate the Eastern Christianity forum at CA was absolutely terrible. Preferential treatment for Eastern Orthodox Chrisitans while giving his own Catholic Bretheren little to no room to speak at all.
And I think "Papist"/"East and West" should be held responsible for what he says in public forums.

Thanks,
George
(Global Moderator)
 

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ozgeorge said:
If anyone has contact with Joe Monahan or has his email, could they please pm me? PLEASE DO NOT POST EMAIL ADDRESSES IN THE FORUM.
I would like to get in touch with Joe ASAP, so if you have contact with him, pm me and I will give you my email to pass it on to him.

The poster known here as "Papist", and known on CAF as "East and West" has made the following post on another thread:

And I think "Papist"/"East and West" should be held responsible for what he says in public forums.

Thanks,
George
(Global Moderator)


Man, you take a great deal of interest in me. At the very least I guess I should be flattered. Now in what way would you like me to take responsibility for my statements? I mean, its not like I am denying them. I think he was an absolutely horrible moderator. Probably because he was so biased against those who actually believe in the teachings of the Church. For some reason he could not keep his biases out of his moderation. Anyway, are you expecting me to tell this to him personally? I am not sure what you want.
 

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George,

If you do get in touch with Mr. Monahan, I'd be interested to know what he's doing now. (I don't really know him, since I never got involved with CAF, but I've heard lots of good things about him.) It'd be nice to see him moderating another forum, seeing as he's no longer at CAF.

-Peter.
 

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Thank you to everyone who responded to my appeal for how to contact Joe Monahan!
I logged on and was swamped with pms! He was obviouly loved by many on CAF!
George

 

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PJ said:
My question, Papist, is why the secrecy about who's been banished and who hasn't? Under mgy100's name it clearly say "Banned", but under Irish Melkite's name it says "Senior Member". Does this mean that Irish Melkite is still permitted to post, and has just been choosing not too? That's what the casual observer would assume.
Peter,

I can assure you that I'm not permitted to post there or I certainly would have done so on any number of occasions recently in response to some of the inane posts that have been made of late, such as:

  • a poster in process of converting to Catholicism from Anglicanism (IIRC) (and crowing about how "steeped" he was in doctrine, dogma, and general spiritual understanding) wondering aloud whether he should seek to be confirmed in the Latin Church or an Eastern Church - as if it were a choice akin to selecting an ice cream flavor
  • a poster asking the difference between the Assyrian Church and the Ancient Church of the East and being answered by a Latin (who prefaced his response with a self-congratulatory remark as to how well-versed he was on the topic) who proclaimed that the Assyrians under Mar Dinkha were about to enter into communion with Rome (what a surprise that will be to Mar Bawai, excommunicated from the Assyrian Church for his own proposal to do so)
  • a poster, responding to the differences between the Coptic and Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Churches, by stating that Pope Shenouda is on the verge of effecting communion with Rome
  • a poster stating that Eucharistic Adoration is not ordinarily observed in the Eastern Churches, Catholic or Orthodox, because our attitude toward the Eucharist is one of banality (I hope I have that correctly. I was dumbstruck when reading it, particularly as it was posted by a member who is reputedly an Eastern Catholic, not by one of the newcomers over there whose ecclesial affiliations seem to defy definition)
  • a poster declaring that Russian Byzantine Catholics are part and parcel of the Melkite Church - a conclusion he reached on the basis of the fact that the Melkite hierarchy in the US have been providing episcopal support to two of the Russian parishes, which lack their own hierarchy

And those are only some of the most egregious and misinformed statements regarding belief and praxis - all or most unchallenged, because there no longer an adequate core body of knowledgeable ECs or EOs remaining. The small cadre of ByzCath posters who took up part-time residence there, I suspect in response to a plea for help from someone there, valiently tried to address issues, but were not there often enough to make a difference and (I think) began to see the place as the farcical shadow of its former self that it has become.

Frankly, I'd given up even reading there because I found it so frustrating to be unable to correct the blatant misinformation being posted and sworn to as an accurate picture of Eastern Christianity, particularly Eastern Catholicism.  I've got more important and worthwhile endeavors to pursue and not enough time as is.  The instances I referenced above came to my attention when I heard about and went there to read that remarkable moderator reply generated by mgy's post. It was a sad testament to the death of their EC forum as we used to know it - a place in which ideas were exchanged, accurate and meaningful info was dispensed, and we engaged in energetic but respectful debate. 

I think that the greatest loss was the incredible treasury of info - not polemic or apologetics - that had been compiled there. Threads that were veritable catalogues of vesture and liturgical accoutrements - Eastern and Western; others that discussed, in incredible detail, topics such as the myriad sects that arose contemporaneously with the Old Believer movement; threads replete with illustrations of ecclesiastical architecture; and so much more - all relegated to CA's unaccessible archives - the internet version of book-burning.

As to why some are labeled as banned and others are not, with all due respect to my brothers and sisters whose identities are tagged with the scarlet "B", there is a method to the apparent madness of this selectivity.  Do not kid yourselves. As busy as this board is and as well-established as ByzCath and the other Orthodox lists/forums are, the on-line Eastern community is small, Many of us have known one another for years and many of us are known, at least by nick and rep, outside the communities which we frequent.

Father Ambrose, for all the times that he had been suspended there, was among CA's most prolific posters (nearly 20K posts - more, but for the data lost in CA's 'Great Crash'). Revered or reviled, he is sufficiently well-known that it would stand out, like a sore thumb, were he obviously banned. Likewise, with no intent to blow my own horn, I'm fairly well-known in the same genre, more because of my reputation as an information-mongerer than anything else. Unlike my dear friend in the land of the kiwi, I rarely wage the battles, leaving those to the would-be apologists and theologians on both sides; I do, however, specialize in answering obscure queries - a habit that seems to afford me a niche in folks' memories. I'd be willing to guess that one will never see my dear friend Michael/Hesychios labeled, nor Padre Ambrogio - why? Because they are, without question, two of the least contentious and most highly-respected folk whom one will ever meet in posting; either could disagree with you in the most vehement manner and you'd still walk away feeling emotionally unscathed because they would do so in such a genteel manner. Those who fit these kinds of profiles are not as easily dispensed with and leaving their names unfettered gives a modicum of respectability that might otherwise be lost.

As to John's suggestion about how to identify the banned, that only works if those checking are themselves logged in. as I recollect.

Many years,

Neil

Addendum:  I echo the comments by my friend and brother, username. The blatant misinformation bandied about as to Eastern Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodoxy) at that site is an incredible abuse. There are Latin Catholics who are both knowledgeable and respectful of the East - my dear friend, James, comes immediately to mind and there are others as well. However, people who fit the profile username describes - their knowledge formed from a 100 year old encyclopedia, wikipedia - where you too can be listed in any royal lineage that strikes your fancy and survive as such until someone notices the inclusion, EWTN or other Latin-oriented sources that may be well-intentioned but are often ignorant, etc - are unfortunately rampant in a place like CAF. When the forum was alive and well, the kind of misinformation and misinterpretation that username and I describe would have been quickly debunked. Such is no longer the case. And people like Artemis and Woodstock, who seem to take their Eastern Catholicity with a heavy dollop of Western dressing, are hardly up to meeting the challenge (besides which I do wish that Woodstock would stop paraphrasing old text of mine when she gets on a soapbox; it's often recognizable and I would hate to have anyone associate us as perhaps the same individual).
 
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