Charismatic Catholics? I'm shocked

Jack Bower

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Maria said:


I guess the charismatics need to pray over this pope.  ::)

Notice the serious bags under his eyes and his PURPLE hands. Definitely not signs of excellent health.
Is this the day that crazy lady was carrying on about the Charismatic movement I spoke about?  Looks about right.  The pope is in pain just listening to her crazy words.  I'm expecting this Charismatic movement to be rooted out like an abscessed tooth.
 

LBK

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But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well.
Charismatic Orthodox? In close to 50 years of being Orthodox, over several jurisdictions and a couple of countries, I've never seen it, nor has any priest I've known condoned it.

I'm also tired of the push towards ordaining women priests and deacons.  Female alter servers are a stretch for me.  But I see the Orthodox are doing similar.
The ordination of female priests is a non-starter, and always will be. Female altar servers have been experimented with by a minuscule number of individual parishes in one jurisdiction, to the horror and consternation of everyone else in the world. Deaconesses? Not for performing the liturgical functions of a deacon. The ancient deaconess was not a female deacon.
 

Agabus

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Jack Bower said:
I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well. 
FWIW, the two examples I have posted were minuscule minority reports.  But they do exist, and people within the Orthodox Church are not immune to error, even charismatic error. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise is in serious delusion. As for Ryden, the EP has excommunicated her.

If what you're referring to as 'interesting movements' within Orthodoxy are old world folk practices -- well the Catholic church has its own share of strange devotions. (Most folk practices don't bother me, even if they aren't part of the official faith. There's paper faith, and then there's organic faith as it's seen on the ground. Heck, the cults of many saints started as folk movements.)
 

WUnland

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I am self described as a "traditional Catholic".  I think that the post Vat II changes to the Mass in the USA have been a disaster.  I am not a cradle Catholic, but a convert from German Baptist.  Way back when I had the privilege of attending a real Latin High Mass.  That memory has stuck with me for 50 some years now.  The Roman Rite "CAN" be as beautiful and worshipful as the Orthodox.  Unfortunately in most of the US it is NOT.

I really hate "most" NO masses, let alone Charismatic ones.  I have been to some very pious and beautiful NO masses in Germany, but not in the USA.  When I am in the US I attend a Polish parish that offers the Latin rite as a matter of my own choice. I make no claim that the NO is not licit.  I am not in that camp.

Here in Japan it is considered a "mission" church and the Mass is a simplified NO that does NOT follow GRIM.  The order and prayers are totally different than that considered the norm anywhere else that I have been. That said I have been to some very pious services here.

That out of the way, I seriously do not personally "like" the Charismatics, particularly the Neo-Cats. My like or dislike however; has nothing to do with the Church's embrace of them.  Trying to attract the young is ALWAYS the excuse given.  Make it more attractive, more Protestant and they will come has been the Churches approach in the USA since Vat II.  In my worthless opinion they have destroyed what was left of Roman Catholic traditions, and have turned the liturgy into a circus. It is very cult like here with "us" and "them" separate congregations.  They stay out of the other parish functions, make their own collections, and do not contribute to the Church.


I am in no position to say whether the actions of Charismatics is divinely inspired, only God knows that, but to me their antics are too much self driven to be representative of true inspiration of the Spirit.  "Look at me I'm dead in the Spirit" seems to be the cry as they "faint". MY faith is so strong, so much better than yours that I can speak in tongues, and so forth.  This is NOT how God works.  The SELF is not to be put in the spotlight.  They may indeed be serious and do good works outside of the liturgy, but their destruction of the traditions of my Church do not make me comfortable in the least.

I joined the RCC to be Catholic, not Protestant.  If I could I would go back to the pre-VatII Church, but alas I cannot.  In obedience I accept my Church's position regarding the council BUT that does not mean that I can't have an opinion.  My confessor has made it clear to me that obedience to Church authority can never go against conscience.  With that I can assure you that I will never join in the circus that has become my Church in many places in the world.  I will remain faithful, but also respectful of tradition. I dare say there is nothing else that I can do.

Regards,
William Unland
 

Jack Bower

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Well, though our pastor doesn't seem to "endorse" Charismatic agendas, he has allowed some rather interesting abuses to continue until the bishop intervened.  I fear that my complaint via email may have provoked the investigation across the wider diocese.  Either that or coincidentally someone else complained enough to provoke the research of EMHCs "blessing" communicants that do not receive - if that makes sense.  I am an EMHC, not because I'm comfortable with doing it completely, but because of my reverence for the Eucharist and understanding of the intent behind their use.  I get it, but I don't get it when EMHCs unecessarily try to draw attention with these enormously exagerated postures of raising the Eucharist above their head and saying with profound dramatic voice inflections "Thheeeee BODdddddyyy of CHriiiiiiiissssssst!".  This along with other similar abuses really crawls under my skin.  My personal belief, of my own authority ;), lends to my huge question:  "if we are so short of priest needing help communing the faithful, then why not ordain more deacons or allowed married priests.  If the standards were elevated, as they should, then why not allow orthodox Catholic married men to study for the priesthood?  I used to beleive it would prevent all of these abuses because an experienced father would have a little sanity about him after raising his own children... hopefully.  It was a couple of Orthodox priests that lectured me, more like mentored me, into the errors of my thinking.  So I conceded to continue in the Latin Rite, and accept the teachings without dissent.  I am seeing evidence that even the bishops of the so called Roman Catholic Church are revealing the possibility of Catholics historically "over interpretting" actions and intentions... similar to the VCII "spirit of Vatican II" experience. 

Example:  Hearing converts discuss more deeply the issues they had helped me to understand more of the objections I had towards the OHCAC.  Infant baptism, celibate only priesthood, confession/absolution, confirmation, grace/faith/works debate, hierarchy, symbol/icon/statue use, rosary, Theotokos, New Adam/New Eve, original sin, real presence, etc.  Many of these issues I can just feel the rejection.  But I'd argue that those that cringe at things like "original sin" really don't understand the actual teaching on the subject.  I think that many priests in the past were more concerned at showing off their ability to engage in flamboyant theological discussions, but failed miserably at conveying the real meaning of such subjects. 

Most all of the "Charismatic" priests I've known are no longer practicing priests.  The irony is that Carry Landry's music is still included in mass.  No offense, but even though I grew up on his music, I loath it in the context of mass.  I have pics of him from charismatic renewal retreats at Franciscan University in my youth.  He was a pastor in a college campus parish where I attended.  My aunt knew him pretty well.  She's still charismatic.  She also attends an Assemblies of God church as well as Catholic Church.  I know other charismatics that have also dissented into such illicit behavior.  One of those charismatic priest presided over my father and stepmother's illicit wedding cerimony, thus really messing my father up even more.  Not having grown up Catholic I didn't understand what happened until I grew up.  It seemed to me that a collection of priests who were all cousins were quite committed to doing illicit things.  Only one remains a priest and hasn't returned my messages.  He probably lives in fear now that he knows I turned in his other cousin that made a pass on me.

I don't want to dump the entire priest scandal on the Charismatic movement.  But since it's all I knew about Catholicism growing up, it just draws conclusions towards that concept.  I haven't heard one scandal yet from the Orthodoxy Church.  I'm sure there's dirt in there somewhere because of human nature.  But with the illicit dissent in the Catholic Church taking place, the sexual scandals just pop out of the pages of the paper much worst.  Either that or there is an effective campaign going on that makes the issue seem much less than it could be.  I don't know. 

My personal experience with the Charismatic Movement is that it is a false expression of Christ - my opinion.  But, I wouldn't publicly come out of the pews to take such a stance knowing the possible character assassinations that would follow.  Been there.  I've seen too many people fake tongues and falling on the ground.  Those that engaged in it are mostly now fallen away completely, living sexually immoral lifestyles, or practicing dual religions.  Most.  Only a few have let go of the past to engage in more orthodox beliefs.  With all of the massive confusion my hope is that God has mercy on us all as we all deserve death.
 

Jack Bower

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Agabus said:
Jack Bower said:
I was still looking seriously at Orhtodoxy.  But after reading of other "interesting" movements within the wider Orthodox Church community I found more and more of this seeping into it as well. 
FWIW, the two examples I have posted were minuscule minority reports.  But they do exist, and people within the Orthodox Church are not immune to error, even charismatic error. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise is in serious delusion. As for Ryden, the EP has excommunicated her.

If what you're referring to as 'interesting movements' within Orthodoxy are old world folk practices -- well the Catholic church has its own share of strange devotions. (Most folk practices don't bother me, even if they aren't part of the official faith. There's paper faith, and then there's organic faith as it's seen on the ground. Heck, the cults of many saints started as folk movements.)
Well, I'm intentionally being vague and avoiding conflict.  I have read enough to make me hesitate towards converting to Orthodoxy.  However, my stalemate is really caused from my wife's expression of faith in Catholicism.  I'm trying to be very careful to preserve our family unit.  If you knew her background in the Church of Christ you might understand my reluctance to simply convert.  Even suggesting the Eastern Catholic rites was enough to trigger a negative response.  I think she's already sacrificed her previous family support as a result of converting to Catholicism.  Asking her to go even further at this time when she knows very little about it is just asking too much in my opinion.  My children have also converted and asking them is also a very difficult request.  I want them to love God and place themselves at His mercy, not the constant bickering of men about what's really what.  Too many lies have already been said.  I do not reject Orthodoxy, I just can't embrace it under my circumstances without losing the trust of my children and spouse of 22 years.  Any evidence of doubt simply prevents me from making what I perceive as possibly an necessary leap of faith.  However, I do prefer the Orthodox expression of faith.  Hope that helps. 

As you have said about "official teaching" in Orthodoxy, the same is true in Catholic teaching.  It's just getting the bishops to finally take a clear stance.  It's this attitude that creates doubt in the "RCC" that bother's me.  Just down the road a particular financial scandal occurred that stopped me from furthering my intent to becoming Orthodox.  I figured I needed to better understand true Catholic teaching before making the jump to Orthodoxy.  So far, since I've seen what I perceive as orthodox Catholic teaching, I see no need to convert... yet.  But, who knows, in time what will happen.  I felt that the poor example revealed another down side.  However I've discovered Catholic priests that have committed the same faults.  What I've uncovered that prevents me from fully converting is the terminologies that are used.  Many misuse or poorly define actual meaning, then further botch the teaching by morphing it into something totally bogus.

Truth is, I simply do not trust what any priest or bishop tells me until I can confirm it's authenticity.  I've been lied to enough to justify my feelings towards it.  However, I don't make it a habit of pointing the finger at clergy other than in online discussions to sift through my thoughts and the thoughts of others. 
 

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One should read Fr Rose's "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" and its section on 'Charismatics'. 

Be warned its not a book for those weak in the faith. It can be scary in a spiritual sort of way because it trully enlightens you to all the spiritual dangers out there and all the facades they put on.

It goes beyond just describing it as heretical. 
 

Ortho_cat

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here's an example of such a service, there are 3 parts. Basically indistinguishable from a protestant worship service. I though the spontaneous birthday celebration halfway through was a nice touch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EcgZyYO6ws&feature=related
 

Ortho_cat

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here's a miraculous healing service; speaking in tongues, tipping, the whole 9 yards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obsv5ddNnVQ&feature=related
 

Marc1152

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I listen to Catholic Radio on the way to Vigil each Saturday. Just Yesterday the guy was making a long defense of Charismatic Gifts and the Catholic Charismatic movement. I was pretty surprised since he is a relatively good apologist most other weeks when I  listen..

I had Protestant Charismatics living next door a few years ago. I live in a town home and we share a common wall. You could here the eerie music they played when they had meetings and then all the shouting and babble. It appeared to me to be demonic..    
 

KShaft

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Marc1152 said:
I listen to Catholic Radio on the way to Vigil each Saturday. Just Yesterday the guy was making a long defense of Charismatic Gifts and the Catholic Charismatic movement. I was pretty surprised since he is a relatively good apologist most other weeks when I  listen..

I had Protestant Charismatics living next door a few years ago. I live in a town home and we share a common wall. You could here the eerie music they played when they had meetings and then all the shouting and babble. It appeared to me to be demonic..    
I would not argue against you. There seems to be a lot of hijacking of RC institutions like the Crucio and other things with this nonsense. Perhaps this will overcome the entire RC Church and it being emasculated (Its already too effeminate but this sort of thing would destroy the church) would assimilate or be assimilated into the one world religion.
Dear Lord, this is nothing but a movement formed based on a bunch of protestant morons who (go figure) misunderstand a scripture passage and(once again go figure) make a whole religion out of it which is totally contradictory to the handed down Faith; which not to mention is just spiritualism or mediumism under the guise of "Christianity". Its like holding a seance but saying Jesus instead of *insert pagan god (AKA demon) here*.    These people are totally deceived.  Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner...
 

Jack Bower

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KShaft,
Though, what you've said is rather harsh, I do believe it to be true and a valid position.
 
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Apotheoun said:
I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4
I just threw up a little.
 

Jack Bower

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laconicstudent said:
Apotheoun said:
I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4
I just threw up a little.
That's nothing more than a "Praise Worship".  Been to many of them.  They can be very  uplifting, but nothing compared to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass done properly... or the Divine Liturgy.
 

Cavaradossi

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Apotheoun said:
I am not a fan of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church because it tends to make a travesty of the Roman Church's ancient liturgy:

Charismatic Mass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bI6_QUpGH4
Wow, the 'tongue' that the celebrant starts chanting in sure does have a suspicious amount of syllables pronounced like [la]; I wonder why that might be. Perhaps the Holy Spirit just wasn't feeling too creative that day. ::)
 

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Essentially what it is is a bunch of RC's who think that by apeing the lamest thing Protestants do they can attract more Protestants. It was practiced in my diocese for awhile but the last Bishop we had said no more. That was a long time ago before I became Orthodox so its possible that they started up again. There was even a Deacon who did "faith healings" at the Cathedral. The whole Benny Hinn slapping you on the head and screaming "satan be gone" thing. I wish I was kidding but I am not.
 
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Scotty said:
Agabus said:
Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.
Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...
No... Please no. "Canine altar server"?  :'(
 

Marc1152

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laconicstudent said:
Scotty said:
Agabus said:
Us first.

And yes, this priest is in good standing with GOARCH and is not your average garage liturgy vagante blending messages.
Really? This place isn't far from my folks.  I was interested in visiting an Orthodox Church in the area but only found this "center", and figured I should stay away.  They're probably friends with the Catholic Church down the road famed for the canine altar server.  Now I might have to go recon...
No... Please no. "Canine altar server"?  :'(
Whoa..hey  What??
 

neon_knights

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I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?
 
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