Charismatic Catholics? I'm shocked

Asteriktos

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neon_knights said:
Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?
Depends on who you ask. I'd say the answer is a definite and strict "sometimes"  :angel:
 

Apples

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neon_knights said:
I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.
Maybe in the lives of the congregation and in their personal theosis. But in their worship? Sorry, but no matter how many nice charismatics I meet all I'll ever see in their worship is a genuine longing for God funneled in a pretty delusional and terribly deficient way.

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?
Yes, especially when we're talking about something that goes against the very core of Christian liturgy like the charismatic movement.
 

J Michael

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William said:
neon_knights said:
I've SEEN the Holy Spirit at work in charismatic churches.

I've attended a church with charismatic leanings for my whole life, and though I dont necessarily agree with all their practices myself, I know that the Spirit has moved in that particular church. If you knew some of the people, you would think so too.
Maybe in the lives of the congregation and in their personal theosis. But in their worship? Sorry, but no matter how many nice charismatics I meet all I'll ever see in their worship is a genuine longing for God funneled in a pretty delusional and terribly deficient way.

Does the EOC have the authority to say where in the Christian community the Holy Spirit ISNT at work?


Yes, especially when we're talking about something that goes against the very core of Christian liturgy like the charismatic movement.
I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.
 

Apples

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Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?
 

Asteriktos

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J Michael said:
I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.
This concept seems to be a recent theological development. I've seen it as early as Khomiakov (19th century), though most probably know it from The Orthodox Church by Met. Kallistos.
 

J Michael

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Asteriktos said:
J Michael said:
I remember having heard from several Orthodox priests that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not.
This concept seems to be a recent theological development. I've seen it as early as Khomiakov (19th century), though most probably know it from The Orthodox Church by Met. Kallistos.
Is it theologically/ecclesiologically correct or incorrect to state that the Orthodox Church knows where the Holy Spirit *is*, i.e. in the Orthodox Church, but does not know where He is not?
 

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William said:
Okay, so is it fine to say that maybe the Spirit is present in Santería chicken sacrifices?
72. The Holy Spirit is not absent from any created being, especially not from one which in any way participates in intelligence. For being God and God's Spirit, He embraces in unity the spiritual knowledge of all created things, providentially permeating all things with His power, and vivifying their inner essences in accordance with their nature. In this way He makes men aware of things done sinfully against the law of nature, and renders them capable of choosing principles which are true and in conformity with nature. Thus we find many barbarians and nomadic peoples turning to a civilized way of life and setting aside the savage laws which they had kept among themselves from time immemorial.
73. The Holy Spirit is present unconditionally in all things, in that He embraces all things, provides for all, and vivifies the natural seeds within them. He is present in a specific way in all who are under the Law, in that He shows them where they have broken the commandments and enlightens them about the promise given concerning Christ. In all who are Christians He is present also in another way in that He makes them sons of God. But in none is He fully present as the author of wisdom except in those who have understanding, and who by their holy way of life have made themselves fit to receive His indwelling and deifying presence. For everyone who does not carry out the divine will, even though he is a believer, has a heart which, being a workshop of evil thoughts, lacks understanding, and a body which, being always entangled in the defilements of the passions, is mortgaged to sin.
St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?
 

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I engage in chicken sacrifices all the time. They're called sandwiches.  ;)
 

Asteriktos

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Cavaradossi said:
St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?
Most accept the distinction between 1) the Spirit and sacramental grace, and 2) the Holy Spirit existing everywhere. Obviously the Spirit is everywhere and "fills all things"--the universe would cease to exist if the Spirit didn't sustain it. But whether the Holy Spirit makes Catholic sacraments grace-filled, or Methodist fruit juice, or is in Gnostic crackers, or Wiccan... well, you see where I'm going with this...

EDIT--Though looking back, maybe this isn't relevant to you comment. Sorry about that!  :D :-[ :angel:
 

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Asteriktos said:
Cavaradossi said:
St. Maximos the Confessor, compiled in the Philokalia Volume II, pages 180-1.

Can you tell me where the Spirit is not?
Most accept the distinction between 1) the Spirit and sacramental grace, and 2) the Holy Spirit existing everywhere. Obviously the Spirit is everywhere and "fills all things"--the universe would cease to exist if the Spirit didn't sustain it. But whether the Holy Spirit makes Catholic sacraments grace-filled, or Methodist fruit juice, or is in Gnostic crackers, or Wiccan... well, you see where I'm going with this...

EDIT--Though looking back, maybe this isn't relevant to you comment. Sorry about that!  :D :-[ :angel:
What is grace but the working of the Holy Spirit in us? If St. Maximos believed that the tendency for barbarians and nomads to settle and become civilized, setting aside their, "savage laws which they had kept among themselves from time immemorial," was the work of the Holy Spirit, is that not the same as saying that they become civilized by grace? I don't think that we can be so quick to put the Holy Spirit in a box, and claim that we are exclusively capable of interacting with it, as if it were some sort of magic, accessible only to the Church. The Holy Spirit is a person (and God for that matter), not a slave of the Church.

Is a Santeria chicken sacrifice sacramental like the Eucharist? Of course not! But if the Holy Spirit can work with barbarians to teach them of law and civilization, cannot the same be done by the Holy Spirit with Santeria believers and God? Of course, we know that we have the truth, and we should always try to bring those who follow false religions to Orthodoxy, but I don't think that we can be so quick to dismiss that God is working in others who truly seek after Him, even if they do not yet know the truth. I could be totally wrong about this, but I just don't think we, as the Church, have the capacity to put God in a box and dictate how He works; He is the one who tells us how we work, not the other way around. :)
 

Asteriktos

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I guess the problem I have is that people like St. Basil and other Church Fathers speak of grace leaving the sacraments of heretics. So while I agree that God wants all to be saved, and works towards that goal through the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure that He works in the same way with everyone.
 

Cavaradossi

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Asteriktos said:
I guess the problem I have is that people like St. Basil and other Church Fathers speak of grace leaving the sacraments of heretics. So while I agree that God wants all to be saved, and works towards that goal through the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure that He works in the same way with everyone.
I think that's very true, and a very astute observation. That's also something St. Maximos talks about.

63. Some are reborn through water and the spirit (cf. John 3:5); others receive baptism in the Holy Spirit and in fire (cf. Matt. 3:11). I take these four things – water, spirit, fire and Holy Spirit – to mean one and the same Spirit of God. To some the Holy Spirit is water because He cleanses the external stains of their bodies. To others he is simply spirit because he makes them active in the practice of virtue. To others He is fire because He cleanses the interior defilement which lies deep within their souls. To others, according to Daniel, He is the Holy Spirit because He bestows on them wisdom and spiritual knowledge (cf. Dan. 1:17; 5:11-12). For the single identical Spirit takes His different names from the different ways in which He acts on each person.
From the Philokalia vol. II pg. 152.

The man performing Santeria chicken sacrifices does not experience the same sort of grace that a Christian does, but to say that there is no grace (no personal working of the Holy Spirit within that man) that could turn him to seek God, I think, is beyond our abilities. It is also beyond our abilities to declare that whatever grace is bestowed upon the man performing chicken sacrifices would be sufficient for his salvation (we can only hope that this will be the case with those who live in falsehood and delusion, and we of course, out of love, should hope that this is true for those who died under such conditions), which is why we have an obligation to bring him to the truth of Orthodoxy in his temporal existence, at least in my opinion.
 

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username! said:
biro said:
I engage in chicken sacrifices all the time. They're called sandwiches.  ;)
My favourite type of sacrificial chicken is either chicken blue ribbon  (cordon bleu) chicken parm or buffalo wings.
We can agree that grace exists in those, can't we? ;)
 

username!

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There would be no grace in that guy doing a chicken sacrifice.  I believe in one God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible....
To say that he is praying to "his God" or that God is the same, just worshiped differently denies Christ.  God sent His only Son into the world that He may save sinners, loose the chains of the fettered and open up the gates of Paradise.  It is through Christ that we are brought to eternal life.  
To say that another religion is just worshiping the same God is therefore wrong.  There is one God, it's all in the Nicene Creed.  
 

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username! said:
There would be no grace in that guy doing a chicken sacrifice.  I believe in one God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible....
To say that he is praying to "his God" or that God is the same, just worshiped differently denies Christ.  God sent His only Son into the world that He may save sinners, loose the chains of the fettered and open up the gates of Paradise.  It is through Christ that we are brought to eternal life. 
To say that another religion is just worshiping the same God is therefore wrong.  There is one God, it's all in the Nicene Creed. 
I was actually meaning the cordon bleu chicken sandwiches.

But as a serious response, let me ask you something: why do you think people make sacrifices to their gods? Is it not because they yearn for contact with the true God? Which would be the better way to evangelize such people? Do we tell the man that his pagan sacrifice is evil and that his gods are evil delusions, and that he shall be damned to hell for his sincerity, or do we tell him that we know of the fulfillment of his yearning, that we have found the true God whom he seeks, greater than any god he could ever in his mind conceive, and that we too sacrificed lambs in the past until the Lamb of God came down to us in the flesh as the fulfillment of all sacrifices, that we should need not sacrifice with blood but with bread and wine? What gives the man his ability to perceive anything greater than himself at all, if it is not the work of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit works in all men, but they are in need of an opportunity to cultivate themselves that they might, "by their holy way of life [make] themselves fit to receive His indwelling and deifying presence." As the Apostle Paul taught, where sin abounds, grace abounds much more, that we might be turned to repentance by the grace of God. We must see this grace at work in other people, and work with it, that they may be brought to Christ.
 

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Cavaradossi said:
username! said:
There would be no grace in that guy doing a chicken sacrifice.  I believe in one God the Father Almighty Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible....
To say that he is praying to "his God" or that God is the same, just worshiped differently denies Christ.  God sent His only Son into the world that He may save sinners, loose the chains of the fettered and open up the gates of Paradise.  It is through Christ that we are brought to eternal life.  
To say that another religion is just worshiping the same God is therefore wrong.  There is one God, it's all in the Nicene Creed.  
I was actually meaning the cordon bleu chicken sandwiches.

But as a serious response, let me ask you something: why do you think people make sacrifices to their gods? Is it not because they yearn for contact with the true God? Which would be the better way to evangelize such people? Do we tell the man that his pagan sacrifice is evil and that his gods are evil delusions, and that he shall be damned to hell for his sincerity, or do we tell him that we know of the fulfillment of his yearning, that we have found the true God whom he seeks, greater than any god he could ever in his mind conceive, and that we too sacrificed lambs in the past until the Lamb of God came down to us in the flesh as the fulfillment of all sacrifices, that we should need not sacrifice with blood but with bread and wine? What gives the man his ability to perceive anything greater than himself at all, if it is not the work of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit works in all men, but they are in need of an opportunity to cultivate themselves that they might, "by their holy way of life [make] themselves fit to receive His indwelling and deifying presence." As the Apostle Paul taught, where sin abounds, grace abounds much more, that we might be turned to repentance by the grace of God. We must see this grace at work in other people, and work with it, that they may be brought to Christ.
Very nicely put  ;)!

(Now, bring on those cordon bleu chicken sandwiches  ;D ;D!)
 
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